Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid'ts?


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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby tandfman » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:32 am

Getting back to the PED issue, I just came across this piece, which I don't think I agree with.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheo ... s-baseball
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby gh » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:40 am

The conclusion resonates with me


<< But there are few worse crimes for a museum than whitewashing history, which is what leaving them out entirely would amount to.>>
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:10 am

gh wrote:The conclusion resonates with me
<< But there are few worse crimes for a museum than whitewashing history, which is what leaving them out entirely would amount to.>>

So we're supposed to have a Hall of Shame? Yes, there should be a plaque somewhere in there (the men's room?) that describes the impact that PEDs have had on the game, but wouldn't anyone going to Cooperstown understand that even without the plaque? This is not like a history or art museum where most people are encountering things they had no idea about.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:53 am

Marlow wrote:So we're supposed to have a Hall of Shame? Yes, there should be a plaque somewhere in there (the men's room?) that describes the impact that PEDs have had on the game, but wouldn't anyone going to Cooperstown understand that even without the plaque? This is not like a history or art museum where most people are encountering things they had no idea about.

If there's going to be a steroid plaque, there should also be an amphetamine plaque, a spitball plaque, a corked bat plaque, etc. And the PED plaques should also distinguish between the post-2003 PED users and the pre-2003 PED users. One thing that I find ironoc is that MLB grandfathered in the spitball ban, allowing that era's current spitballers to continue using that pitch until they retired, while the baseball writers have retroactively banned steroid users.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:12 am

I suspect that eventually Bonds and Clemens will get in but that Sosa will not, and neither will McGuire; the latter two being judged to have been helped across the finish line by such methods.

I think that the rule on spitballs is inapt; They decided to take it out of the game, which the method did, without ruining the career of those who had developed their skill set that way. I might have been a necessary compromise to get the ban effected. Conversely, I do not think that much of anyone did not think that using steroids was cheating and in a major way. These guys also knew that they were not leveling the playing field, they were standing on a stool compared to a substantial fraction of their competitors. Furthermore, despite substantial evidence, they refuse to allocute to their conduct.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:36 am

26mi235 wrote:Conversely, I do not think that much of anyone did not think that using steroids was cheating and in a major way. These guys also knew that they were not leveling the playing field, they were standing on a stool compared to a substantial fraction of their competitors. Furthermore, despite substantial evidence, they refuse to allocute to their conduct.

I don't see why anyone would call steroid use cheating before 2003, since just like amphetamine use, it was available to everybody without fear of being sanctioned by MLB. And I don't know what you mean by allocute, but most of the bigger names (eg. McGuire, Giambi, Pettitte, Rodriguez, Canseco, etc.) have admitted what they did.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Pego » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:29 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:So we're supposed to have a Hall of Shame? Yes, there should be a plaque somewhere in there (the men's room?) that describes the impact that PEDs have had on the game, but wouldn't anyone going to Cooperstown understand that even without the plaque? This is not like a history or art museum where most people are encountering things they had no idea about.

If there's going to be a steroid plaque, there should also be an amphetamine plaque, a spitball plaque, a corked bat plaque, etc. And the PED plaques should also distinguish between the post-2003 PED users and the pre-2003 PED users. One thing that I find ironoc is that MLB grandfathered in the spitball ban, allowing that era's current spitballers to continue using that pitch until they retired, while the baseball writers have retroactively banned steroid users.


Yes to all jc's points.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:33 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Conversely, I do not think that much of anyone did not think that using steroids was cheating and in a major way. These guys also knew that they were not leveling the playing field, they were standing on a stool compared to a substantial fraction of their competitors. Furthermore, despite substantial evidence, they refuse to allocute to their conduct.

I don't see why anyone would call steroid use cheating before 2003, since just like amphetamine use, it was available to everybody without fear of being sanctioned by MLB. And I don't know what you mean by allocute, but most of the bigger names (eg. McGuire, Giambi, Pettitte, Rodriguez, Canseco, etc.) have admitted what they did.


They NEVER publicized it at all; conversely, they hid it as much as possible. Why? Because they knew it would be frowned upon everywhere and that doing so would push MLB to formally ban them.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:51 pm

26mi235 wrote:They NEVER publicized it at all; conversely, they hid it as much as possible. Why? Because they knew it would be frowned upon everywhere and that doing so would push MLB to formally ban them.

I really don't see why the fact that steroid users didn't run around bragging about steroid use, a la Paul Revere, is relevant, but let me point out that amphetamine use wasn't publicized either, and when Tony Gwynn tried to bring to light the widespread use of greenies, he was ostracized by the other players. Furthermore, in all my years following LSU athletics and getting to know well over a hundreds of athletes in a variety of sports, not a single one has ever talked about doing creatine, but I know they all did it, because I've heard coaches talk about it. What's relevant to me is that the NCAA allows creatine use and prior to 2003, MLB allowed steroid and amphetamine use.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:51 am

It looks like Alex Rodriguez has a Lance Armstrong problem. He claims that he quit doping in 2003 when MLB's PED-enforcement program went into effect, but recently discovered records indicate that he was doping as recently as last season.

Saturday, ESPN's Outside The Lines reported that Major League Baseball was investigating multiple wellness clinics in South Florida, as well as individuals with potential ties to players. The report said that the area from Boca Raton to Miami is "ground zero" for performance-enhancing drugs still filtering into the game.

Rodriguez, the New York Yankees slugger who ended 2012 injured and on the bench during the playoffs, has admitted to using steroids from 2001-03, but he has said he has not used PEDs since. The New Times report said that Rodriguez's name shows up 16 times in the records it reviewed. Miami New Times reported that records indicated Rodriguez paid Bosch $3,500 for "1.5/1.5 HGH (sports perf.), creams test., glut., MIC, supplement, sports perf. Diet." There are other notations for Rodriguez as well, beginning in 2009 and continuing through last season. Rodriguez had hip surgery last month and is expected to miss some or all of the 2013 season.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... -ped-lists
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:14 am

2003? LA wins his last race in 2005 and is only recently found out and you would have thought it was the coming of the anti-Christ. While Rodriquez is known to be using in 2003 and the reaction is like, that was not nice...
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:51 am

Conor Dary wrote:2003? LA wins his last race in 2005 and is only recently found out and you would have thought it was the coming of the anti-Christ. While Rodriquez is known to be using in 2003 and the reaction is like, that was not nice...

IMO, the piling on has definitely gone too far with Lance, but I also thought he was unworthy of the deification he recieved before his downfall.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:58 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:2003? LA wins his last race in 2005 and is only recently found out and you would have thought it was the coming of the anti-Christ. While Rodriquez is known to be using in 2003 and the reaction is like, that was not nice...

IMO, the piling on has definitely gone too far with Lance, but I also thought he was unworthy of the deification he recieved before his downfall.


LA's problem was winning the Tour too many times. If he had only won 2 or 3 no one would have really cared what he took. Especially the types who never followed the sport until LA made it big.

It was the same with Al Capone. Never should have had those 7 guys shot in that garage at 2122 N. Clark. The Feds would probably never had really cared.... :lol:
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:37 am

It's interesting to compare Armstrong to Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.

    Armstrong - 7 Tour de France wins, notorious asshole, lied to the Feds
    Clemens - 7 Cy Young awards, notorious asshole, lied to the Feds
    Bonds - 7 MVP awards, notorious asshole, lied to the Feds

Additionally, like Armstrong, Clemens also bullied and intimidated witnesses. I guess I have to give Bonds credit for being more discreet than Armstrong and Clemens. Not only did he only include one person in the loop, but that one person was a lifelong friend who probably played in sandboxes and shot marbles with him. By the way, the most shameful and underhanded act of the government during the PED witchhunts of the last decade is when the Feds raided the home of Greg Anderson's mother-in-law under the pretense that she was being investigated for tax evasion.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:50 am

jazzcyclist wrote:It's interesting to compare Armstrong to Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.

    Armstrong - 7 Tour de France wins, notorious asshole, lied to the Feds
    Clemens - 7 Cy Young awards, notorious asshole, lied to the Feds
    Bonds - 7 MVP awards, notorious asshole, lied to the Feds
Al Capone - 7 dead, February 14, 1929, 2122 N. Clark, Chicago.


7 is the magic number. Evil People all.....
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Pego » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:12 pm



Deer-antler velvet extract, eh? This one I never heard before.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby gh » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:38 pm

you obviously didn't read our front-page headlines section on August 06, 2011 :mrgreen:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... =hp_t12_a2
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Pego » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:06 pm

gh wrote:you obviously didn't read our front-page headlines section on August 06, 2011 :mrgreen:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... =hp_t12_a2


Yes, I missed it :oops: .

Back to the antler spray. If they don't "fortify" that antler extract, I'll eat my shoes.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby bambam » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:41 pm

This will be so covered up by the NFL - masters of PR. Of course, he never tested positive. Note that nobody on ESPN has mentioned that IGF-1 cannot be detected by urine testing, which is the only test they have - it requires blood testing.

He will be given a pass by the media on this, because it is the NFL, and then he will ascend into heaven.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:30 pm

bambam wrote:He will be given a pass by the media on this, because it is the NFL, and then he will ascend into heaven.

Hmmm. . . . .

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/p ... 257567.jpg

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/up ... backer.jpg

8-)
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:32 pm

Timber!!! [ok, I missed the above...[delete]
Last edited by 26mi235 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:42 pm

26mi235 wrote:Timber!!!

Alex Rodriguez and others

Where've you been 26? You're about 12 hours late with this story. :P

viewtopic.php?p=812218#p812218
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:25 am

bambam wrote:This will be so covered up by the NFL ....

He will be given a pass by the media on this, because it is the NFL, and then he will ascend into heaven.


NFL fans care about their teams winning. They don't care at all about PEDs when it involves their players. And the pundits know this. Jim Miller, Bears' QB, tested positive about 10 years ago and missed, HORRORS, 4 games because of a suspension. It was quickly forgotten and today he is a major TV pundit in town.

The athletes that really get dumped on are the Disposable Heroes, such as LA and Marion Jones.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby gh » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:43 am

allow me to quibble with your statement slightly. It should have been written thusly:


All fans in all team games (pro or amateur) in all nations, care about their teams winning. They don't care at all about PEDs when it involves they players. And the pundits know this.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:55 pm

Yes, I agree with that. Name the TEAM sport, especially college football, and the fans don't care. Or more likely, don't want to know.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Pego » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Let me join Conor Dary and gh. Who was the wise man that once observed``He may be a scoundrel, but he`s our scoundrel``?
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:32 pm

So, do these players, stripped [o]f the production from seasons where PEDs usage occurred, still make it in? Almost no one seems to think that Armstrong is treated too harshly; while these drugs were not 'illegal' within the sport during some of the time, that was only because the sport itself denied that they were part of the sport. Assuming that they are major sporting bodies, I take a WADA approach at least partially before 2003 and completely thereafter. AR has no production going forward (at a minimum an 8-year ban) and loses essentially everything after 2000. At most, a very good player for some years -- not HOF material, especially with non-stat stuff taken into consideration.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby cullman » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:26 pm

Pego wrote:Let me join Conor Dary and gh. Who was the wise man that once observed``He may be a scoundrel, but he`s our scoundrel``?

It was FDR who once said about a Latin American dictator, "he may be a sonofabitch but he's our sonofabitch". :P
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:56 pm

Now that MLB has its own Operation Puerto known as the Biogenesis Clinic scandal, it will be interesting to see if MLB responds as agressively as the UCI did when Eufemiano Fuentes was arrested and his books were shown to have the names of scores of pro cyclists in them.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:18 am

Curt Schilling says that in 2008, five years after MLB's PED enforcement policy went into effect, illegal PED use was still being openly encouraged in the Red Sox clubhouse.

Former Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling said on ESPN Radio on Wednesday that in 2008 "former members of the organization" told him performance-enhancing drugs were an option to help him get healthy and extend his career.

Schilling, who had signed a one-year contract with Boston in 2008 but did not pitch that season due to a shoulder injury, would not identify who was involved in the conversation, or whether it was a player, coach or staff member.

"At the end of my career, in 2008 when I had gotten hurt, there was a conversation that I was involved in, in which it was brought to my attention that this is a potential path I might want to pursue," Schilling, who is currently an ESPN analyst, told ESPN Radio's Colin Cowherd.

Schilling said the topic came up in a clubhouse conversation that could be overheard by several teammates.

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/i ... -clubhouse
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:25 am


Tony Casillas says that deer antler spray is nothing compared to the stuff football players used to take back in his day.

"When I heard about deer-antler spray, I said that's nothing. We used to use this stuff called 'DMSO,'" Casillas said last week in an interview with KRLD-FM in Dallas. "That's what veterinarians put on horses' muscles and we used it in the locker room."

"We had a bottle and you'd take it. It goes right to the blood stream. I'm not sure about this deer-antler stuff, but it was prevalent in our locker room," Casillas said in the interview.

Casillas said players saw an immediate benefit from using "DMSO."

"It's an ointment that's like anti-inflammatory. You put it on your skin and you put it on a muscle, and I guarantee you, in about 30 minutes you'd feel great," he said, adding that "people knew" players were using it.

"Everyone knew about it."

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/i ... nfl-career
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:27 am

DMSO! Boy, does that bring back memories in Eugene years ago. Salazar use to drown himself in that stuff.

And speaking of the old days, in today's NYTimes...

    Walt Sweeney, an All-Pro guard for the San Diego Chargers in the 1960s and ’70s who accused the team of handing out drugs to players and fostering his own addiction, died on Saturday at his home in San Diego. He was 71.

    “My drug addiction is directly related to the game,” he wrote in a memoir published in 2012. “It was the San Diego Chargers trainers and doctors who gave pregame amphetamines to rev me up, postgame sedatives to bring me down, pain killers as ‘needed’ and steroids, said to be vitamins, for better health. I considered taking drugs as normal for game-day preparation as putting on my game face.”

    He claimed he had been given prescription drugs regularly for his entire career. Players were fined if they did not take steroids, he said, and many other pills were made available. (In an email on Wednesday, a Chargers spokesman said the team had no information on its drug policies of the 1970s.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/sport ... .html?_r=0
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:15 pm

If Sweeney's story is true, it sounds worse than anything that went on cycling since I never heard of cyclists getting fined for not doping. However, the NFL will invoke the statute of limitations claim, a la the IOC and East Germany, and see no evil and hear no evil. However, it's going to be a lot harder for MLB to sweep Schilling's claims under the rug since he's talking about things that happened less than five years ago.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby kuha » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:45 pm

Conor Dary wrote:And speaking of the old days, in today's NYTimes...

    Walt Sweeney, an All-Pro guard for the San Diego Chargers in the 1960s and ’70s who accused the team of handing out drugs to players and fostering his own addiction, died on Saturday at his home in San Diego. He was 71...

    He claimed he had been given prescription drugs regularly for his entire career. Players were fined if they did not take steroids, he said, and many other pills were made available. (In an email on Wednesday, a Chargers spokesman said the team had no information on its drug policies of the 1970s.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/sport ... .html?_r=0


"His whole career" began in 1963! So another wake-up call to those who under the delusion that PEDs in sports are somehow an '80s-90s thing, or maybe a '70s-and-on thing. Further, we know that none of this simply popped out of the woodwork in the summer of 1963; there's a history leading up to that point.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby gh » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:10 pm

Conor Dary wrote:DMSO! Boy, does that bring back memories in Eugene years ago. Salazar use to drown himself in that stuff....


And since it's not on anybody's banned list he was/is free to do so, as is everybody else. Given that it's a by-product of the kraft paper process, it shouldn't be surprising that it would be popular in the state of Oregon.

I remember an between-periods interview on the CBS's Hockey Night In Canada back in the mid'60s in which the player said something and the interviewer got a funny look on his face and backed away, and the player said, somewhat abashedly (and I paraphrase), "Oh, sorry, eh! That DMSO stuff really gives you breath like garlic dip."

Bottom line is that DMSO doesn't belong in a discussion of PEDs and bringing it up in that context only casts aspersions on the users thereof.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:31 pm

gh wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:DMSO! Boy, does that bring back memories in Eugene years ago. Salazar use to drown himself in that stuff....


And since it's not on anybody's banned list he was/is free to do so, as is everybody else. Given that it's a by-product of the kraft paper process, it shouldn't be surprising that it would be popular in the state of Oregon.

I remember an between-periods interview on the CBS's Hockey Night In Canada back in the mid'60s in which the player said something and the interviewer got a funny look on his face and backed away, and the player said, somewhat abashedly (and I paraphrase), "Oh, sorry, eh! That DMSO stuff really gives you breath like garlic dip."

Bottom line is that DMSO doesn't belong in a discussion of PEDs and bringing it up in that context only casts aspersions on the users thereof.


I never implied it was illegal. Hell, I even tried it once, primarily because Alberto seemed to swear by it. But it made your breath awful and I don't think it worked anyways. And I agree it has no business in a PED discussion and frankly I was surprised anyone else would since it always seem to me more like some sort of Ben-Gay ointment.

But it was popular in Eugene. A Kraft by-product? I didn't know that. You mean sort of like Velveeta?
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby kuha » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:53 pm

The larger issue here is that there is a rich history of things perceived to be P E. The D is a more recent addition, and one open to some revision over the years.
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Re: Who Do You Think Merits Cooperstown fr. Today's Candid't

Postby dj » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:52 am

Here's one article that traces PED use to Bob Hoffman and York (Pa.) Barbells: http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitma ... rbell.html

The story ignores the simultaneous(?) impact of the the body building community centered on the southern California beaches. And there is no discussion of individual experimentation throughout the country.
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