Out having a taco . . .


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:09 am

Dr. Phil had a one hour show last friday all about race and stereotypes, very interesting. An Asian woman admitted she found this large black man intimidating so Dr. Phil had them sit together for the whole show and they had to converse during the breaks. She finds out that this man she was afraid of is shy and charming.

Anyway should i be insulted by Farrakhan? I'm not at all.

Farrakhan made several More.. controversial statements about race, including "White people are potential humans � they haven't evolved yet" in March 2000, and "Murder and lying comes easy for white people" in 1994. He has also alluded to a figure called "Yacub" (or "Jacob") with reference to whites.

According to Farrakhan's mentor, Elijah Muhammad, blacks were "born righteous and turned to unrighteousness," while the white race was "made unrighteous by the god who made them (Mr. Yacub)." Farrakhan and other NOI speakers have taught the "White man is the devil!" "The race war is coming and we will kill these white people."
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:15 am

SQUACKEE wrote:white race was "made unrighteous by the god


No propaganda tool is as powerful as making it "God's will".
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Postby Avante » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:31 am

It's when people feel a need to play pretend is what gets me. We are different, that is a fact to act like we aren't...why? What is the big deal? Reality is just that...reality.
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Postby richxx87 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:38 am

I would seriously love to be out having a taco right about now.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:11 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I sometimes wonder if it's even possible for a WASP male to know what it feels like to be a member of a minority demographic group that has been historically discriminated against.

Not that specifically, but it isn't all that hard to be empathetic with ANYone who is being repressed, oppressed, suppressed, as we ALL are that at some point or another (or at least others are trying to do that to us). I outgrew most of my insecurities in college, but again, that's easier for mWASPs than most others. Jokes about mWASPs (which is the majority of militant-feminist humor) are, of course, completely ineffectual, because we ARE in positions of power.
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous.


He didn't.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:46 am

TrakFan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous.


He didn't.


I think we can assume Wright is not very fond of white people, can we not?

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.” (2003)

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.” (magazine article)

“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)

“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary would never know that. Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:21 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
TrakFan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous.


He didn't.


I think we can assume Wright is not very fond of white people, can we not?

I wouldn't assume that based on those quotes, afterall, his church did have many White members, though they were in the minority. As I said earlier, I would definitely call his rhetoric inflammatory, and I think he has even given folks ammunition with which to attack his patriotism despite the fact that he's a marine veteran, but everything he said is based on historical fact. Anyone who has read the original constitution knows that this country was founded on the principles of White supremacy. Is it not a fact that over the last 500 years, people of European descent have gone all over the planet to exploit and wreak havoc on non-Europeans/people of color? Do you think that it's likely that Hillary Clinton has ever experienced the kind of racism that Blacks have experienced?

Now, there's no doubt that Wright has gone overboard in his criticism of the U.S. when he accuses the government of inventing AIDS and implies that racism is as prevalent today as it is was 200 years ago, but I don't think that makes him a racist, based on my definition of the word.
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:27 am

I don't think using the term "white" or "black" always equates to a slur -- on either side of the color wheel.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:29 am

Wright wrote:We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority

Wow - there's a VERY interesting sub-text underlying that statement. Freud would say that even Rev. Wright seems to believe it!

As Mark Twain pointed out, the really evil consequence of US slavery is that many of the slaves believed that they deserved to be slaves because they felt themselves to be sub-human. Such is what propaganda can do! And the only way to undo it is extensive Behavior Modification. Behavior doesn't follow Attitude as much as Attitude follows Behavior. MAKE people behave in a civil (rights) manner, and eventually they will subsume that as a standard of their own that they will defend.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:31 am

[quote="jazzcyclist"]Anyone who has read the original constitution knows that this country was founded on the principles of White supremacy. Iquote]

There's a lot of truth to this but there is soooo much more to the constitution than white supremacy. at least it had the promise of these words -we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal.

There was slavery all over the world before the Europeans got involved and many Africans helped the European slave trade. To suggest white people created slavery is wrong.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:55 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Anyone who has read the original constitution knows that this country was founded on the principles of White supremacy.


There's a lot of truth to this but there is soooo much more to the constitution than white supremacy. at least it had the promise of these words -we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal.

There was slavery all over the world before the Europeans got involved and many Africans helped the European slave trade. To suggest white people created slavery is wrong.

I never said that White folks invented slavery. Slavery has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. I was only addressing Wright's take on the idealogy of White surpemacy. Slavery and racism are two different things. For most of human history, slavery existed without racism because people generally enslaved people who looked just like them, but were of a different ethnic group, tribe or religious faith. As a matter of fact, racism is a relatively young form of bigotry, because up until 500 years ago, most people went through their entire lives without ever seeing a person of a different race. But make no mistake, the U.S., or to be more precise, the British colonies in the late 1600's, is the first known instance where people married the practice of slavery to the ideology of racism. Up until then, there are no known instances of goverments judging people by their skin color anywhere in the world, and African slaves and European indentured servants were treated the same, with both being able to buy their freedom and being sentenced indentically for the same crimes.

As for that famous passage from the Declaration of Independence, isn't it self-evident (pun intended) that the authors of those words didn't believe in them?
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:06 am

jazzcyclist wrote: Is it not a fact that over the last 500 years, people of European descent have gone all over the planet to exploit and wreak havoc on non-Europeans/people of color?
.


I thought you were referring to slavery.

In 1776 they wrote about equality but that vision and hope was/is centuries away. Would you rather they had written -we hold these truths to be self evident that Black people are inferior, at least it would have been honest, right?
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:22 am

Marlow wrote:
Wright wrote:We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority

Wow - there's a VERY interesting sub-text underlying that statement. Freud would say that even Rev. Wright seems to believe it!


When you're addressing a group, it makes sense to put yourslef in the same category of those you're trying to guide towards improvement. Sure, he could have said "you", but it wouldn't have been as effective.

"As men, WE have a history of marginalizing women, however..."

"As educators, WE don't push girls towards careers in math and science in the same manner as boys, however..."

"As women, WE'RE too eager to accept substandard treatment from unfaithful boyfriends and husbands, however..."
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Postby ndamix » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:55 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Anyone who has read the original constitution knows that this country was founded on the principles of White supremacy.


There's a lot of truth to this but there is soooo much more to the constitution than white supremacy. at least it had the promise of these words -we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal.

There was slavery all over the world before the Europeans got involved and many Africans helped the European slave trade. To suggest white people created slavery is wrong.
True...slavery/human exploitation is as old as the human beings are.

However one can't ignore the various social institutions that came about as a result of the Europe's involvement in the slave trade especially when reviewing in a historical context of the last 500 years.

While European involvement of slavery has received the lion's share of the ink, it's interesting to note Arabs were just as culpable considering slavery was formally abolished in 1962 in what is now known as Saudi Arabia.
Last edited by ndamix on Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:07 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Is it not a fact that over the last 500 years, people of European descent have gone all over the planet to exploit and wreak havoc on non-Europeans/people of color?


True. But it is also true that before that (with some overlap into the seventeeth century), it was the Moslem Turks that enslaved southeast Europe, and before that the Mongols and before that the Arabs and before that caucasian Avars and central Asian Huns, and before that white Romans and white Greeks and before that Persians...
There has also been a lot of enslavement of whites by whites, blacks by blacks, blacks by Moslems, Koreans by the Japanese (supposedly the same race). Massacres of people of the same race but different religion or questionably different ethnicity have been occurring regularly to this day (Rwanda, Yugoslavia).
To blame most of the human suffering on race wars is quite short-sighted.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:34 am

Weren't the pyramids built by slaves?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:53 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: Is it not a fact that over the last 500 years, people of European descent have gone all over the planet to exploit and wreak havoc on non-Europeans/people of color?
.
I thought you were referring to slavery.

In 1776 they wrote about equality but that vision and hope was/is centuries away. Would you rather they had written -we hold these truths to be self evident that Black people are inferior, at least it would have been honest, right?

I was referring to colonisation, usurpation and mineral theft in my earlier post. I should add that the founding fathers also viewed native Americans as inferior, but yes, I think it would have better if they would have been up front about their racism, rather than hide behind hollow platitudes. There are very few character traits that irk me more than hypocrisy.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:12 am

jazzcyclist wrote: I think it would have better if they would have been up front about their racism, rather than hide behind hollow platitudes. There are very few character traits that irk me more than hypocrisy.


Here's the new and improved version-

We hold these truths to be self evident that all Blacks, Asians, American Indians, Indians, women of all races, Homosexuals, Arabs, Jews and basically anyone with a tan to be inferior. Oh and Irish and the Eskimos.

We the people reserve the right to enslave these inferior sub humans.

All right Ben Franklin, get your fat ass over here and sign this shit!
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:23 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Is it not a fact that over the last 500 years, people of European descent have gone all over the planet to exploit and wreak havoc on non-Europeans/people of color?


True. But it is also true that before that (with some overlap into the seventeeth century), it was the Moslem Turks that enslaved southeast Europe, and before that the Mongols and before that the Arabs and before that caucasian Avars and central Asian Huns, and before that white Romans and white Greeks and before that Persians...
There has also been a lot of enslavement of whites by whites, blacks by blacks, blacks by Moslems, Koreans by the Japanese (supposedly the same race). Massacres of people of the same race but different religion or questionably different ethnicity have been occurring regularly to this day (Rwanda, Yugoslavia).
To blame most of the human suffering on race wars is quite short-sighted.

I wasn't trying to blame all or even most of human suffering on race wars. As a matter of fact I was saying just the opposite. Wouldn't you agree that historically speaking, people who have been oppressed, enslaved or massacred were much more likely to be the victims of people who looked like them than people who didn't? Hitler and Stalin's victims were people who looked like them. Hirohito's victims were people who looked like him. Mao and Pol Pot's victims were people who looked like them. Saddam's victims were people who looked like him. And the same was true in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Bosnia, etc. My main point is that historically, people have been targeted for religious and cultural reasons, not skin color. Even when leaders have been motivated by greed and wreckless ambition, they've used religion and culture to get the masses to buy into their visions of imperialism.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:26 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Here's the new and improved version-

We hold these truths to be self evident that all Blacks, Asians, American Indians, Indians, women of all races, Homosexuals, Arabs, Jews and basically anyone with a tan to be inferior. Oh and Irish and the Eskimos.

We the people reserve the right to enslave these inferior sub humans.

All right Ben Franklin, get your fat ass over here and sign this shit!

Now you're beginning to see the picture. By the way, have you ever read Frederick Douglas' July 4 speech?
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:Here's the new and improved version-

We hold these truths to be self evident that all Blacks, Asians, American Indians, Indians, women of all races, Homosexuals, Arabs, Jews and basically anyone with a tan to be inferior. Oh and Irish and the Eskimos.

We the people reserve the right to enslave these inferior sub humans.

All right Ben Franklin, get your fat ass over here and sign this shit!

Now you're beginning to see the picture. By the way, have you ever read Frederick Douglas' July 4 speech?


No i havent.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:44 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Weren't the pyramids built by slaves?

Not unless you believe your religion enslaves you. The pharoahs commanded the pyramids to be built, and the pharoahs were gods to the ancient Egyptians, so it was in their best interests to do as the god commanded.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:47 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:have you ever read Frederick Douglas' July 4 speech?

No i havent.

"This Fourth of July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn. Do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak to-day? . . . What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants brass fronted impudence; your shout of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanks-givings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour."
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:51 am

And he followed that up with this:
Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:51 am

TrakFan wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Wright wrote:We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority

Wow - there's a VERY interesting sub-text underlying that statement. Freud would say that even Rev. Wright seems to believe it!

When you're addressing a group, it makes sense to put yourslef in the same category of those you're trying to guide towards improvement. Sure, he could have said "you", but it wouldn't have been as effective.

That's why I said sub-text. Overtly it's obvious he is not speaking for himself, but sub-textually I see more. I see a man so full of rancor that he must strike out at an invisible enemy, an enemy that he sees trying to destroy him at every opportunity. I think he inadvertently drank some of the Kool-aid that White American has historically been providing minorities.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:52 am

Marlow wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:Weren't the pyramids built by slaves?

Not unless you believe your religion enslaves you. .


8-)
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:And he followed that up with this:
Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....


Unless you happen to be a white male!
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:55 am

jazzcyclist wrote:you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....

Sad but true. And we've been trying to make up for that for the last 150 years, which is more than I can say for all those other despots and tyrants to whom he referred. It is the progress we've made (Obama, for one) that defines us now, not just the abysmal depths to which we had sunk. Present-day Germany certainly knows how that feels.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:59 am

jazzcyclist wrote:And he followed that up with this:
Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....


So would you agree we deserved 9/11 like Rev. Wright said? Do we deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth and if not, why not?
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:01 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:Do we deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth and if not, why not?

Just wait till 12/21/12 and let it happen naturally! :D
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:31 pm

jazzcyclist from Douglas wrote:for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival


Once again I am going to argue. You guys are speaking strictly from the vantage point of the American experience, even more narrow, the experience of American ethnic minorities such as blacks and Indians. This sort of thing has been happening all around the world, sometime with ethnic background, sometimes racial, sometimes religious, but most ot the time it was socio-economic. In USA, the Civil war ended involuntary servitude. In central Europe, it pretty much existed almost to the time of WWI. They were not called slaves, but serfs. A landlord could still kill a serf, practically with impunity. They still had to work for the lord 1/10th of the time, the Church 1/9th. They were totally economically dependent. Post WWI industrialization started creating a small urban middle class, but a decade later came the Great Depression. That was also a world-wide phenomenon that may have been lost on the Americans.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:42 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:And he followed that up with this:
Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....


So would you agree we deserved 9/11 like Rev. Wright said? Do we deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth and if not, why not?

As I said earlier, and as Obama said in his speech on race last year, Wright is wrong when he says this country hasn't made progress, though it might not be fast enough for him. But Wright is a product of his time, and last year my mother said that folks would be shocked if they realized how many Blacks over the age of 60 feel the same way Wright does.

Generally speaking, I would say that all people deserve the same right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But I also believe that all citizens of a nation are collectively responsible for the actions of their government outside its borders. The citizens of Hiroshima didn't deserve to be nuked and citizens of Dresden didn't deserve to be firebombed, but they were responsible for the actions of their respective governments. Terrorism is the price of imperialism and interventionism, and it's up to the citizens of a country to decide if they're willing to pay the price for having meddling and aggressive governments. Do you have any idea how many military bases we have in countries all over the world in foreign countries? Did you know that we spend more money on our military than all of the other nations of the world combined? When Wright talked about "the chickens coming home to roost", he was quoting Ambassador Edward Peck who talked about 9/11 being the manifestation of what the CIA calls "blowback" on FOX News. But I guess it was asking too much for the Obama haters to put Wright's comments in context when they posted the videos all over the place. Here's that entire Wright passage from that sound bite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

I think you might get a different impression of the man after watching this. Did you happen to notice who posted that video? Trinity United Church sells DVD's of it's sermon, but after FOX News bought them and selectively edited 15 years worth of sermons into inflammatory sound bites, they were forced to post the entire passages from each of those sound bites on youtube so that folks could see Wright in context. Obviously, the entire passages didn't get nearly the TV air time of the original sound bites that were edited from them.
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:05 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:
So would you agree we deserved 9/11 like Rev. Wright said? Do we deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth and if not, why not?


He didn't say we deserved it. He provided examples of why it shouldn’t come as a surprise that others look to do harm to our country.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... -post.html
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:38 pm

Pego, there's no doubt that your knowledge of world history is much broader than mine, but I do realize that bigotry and oppression of humans by other humans began thousands of years ago for all sorts of reasons. However, I was only addressing a very narrow form of bigotry based on skin color which I believe is relatively new. I'm not saying that older forms of bigotry aren't just as oppressive. Do you agree that assessment?
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:58 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Pego, there's no doubt that your knowledge of world history is much broader than mine, but I do realize that bigotry and oppression of humans by other humans began thousands of years ago for all sorts of reasons. However, I was only addressing a very narrow form of bigotry based on skin color which I believe is relatively new. I'm not saying that older forms of bigotry aren't just as oppressive. Do you agree that assessment?


We hardly ever disagree over socio-political issues, so this is no exception. College football, of course, is an entirely different matter :wink: .
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:41 pm

SQUACKEE, do you believe in what the CIA calls blowback? Or do you believe that someone gave Osama bin Laden a copy of the Bill of Rights one day and he flipped out?
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:25 pm

I always laugh at the way a thread morphs into other areas. Wasn't this thread about NASCAR and Taco Bell??? More importantly, it shows that there can be a cordial and informative discussion on a "Third Rail" issue.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:15 pm

Terrorism is the price of imperialism and interventionism

Wrong, its the price we all must pay for Religious fanatics who worship death
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:14 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:Terrorism is the price of imperialism and interventionism

Wrong, its the price we all must pay for Religious fanatics who worship death

So I take it that your answer to my first question is no. I think W really did this country a disservice after 9/11 when he said, "they hate us for our freedom". To their credit, Europeans don't tolerate that kind of of nationalistic Orwellian nonsense from their politicians. When the Prime Minister of Spain tried to blame the Madrid bombings on the Basques instead of his Iraq adventure that 94% of Spaniards opposed, he paid the price at the polls three days later when the people of Spain kicked him out of office. In a poll taken a few days after the London bombings, 85% of the British people connected the bombings to their military presence in Iraq. Of course, the British and the Spanish only learned the lessons of imperialism the hard way after centuries of world-wide pillage and plunder, but I hope it doesn't take us as long as it took them.
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