Out having a taco . . .


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Out having a taco . . .

Postby Marlow » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:17 pm

Bob Griese just made a formal apology on national TV (NCAA Football) for an 'inappropriate comment' made about NASCAR driver, Juan Montoya. When talking about the NASCAR standings, Griese was asked where Colombian Montoya was, and Griese said, "Out having a taco."

It was an inane statement, i.e., a failed attempt at humor. but did it require a national apology? I'm not clear on the offense. Is it offensive that a Hispanic might eat a taco? If it was a German and he had said, "Out having a bratwurst." would that be offensive? Italian, spaghetti? Brit, blood pudding?
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Postby Vielleicht » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:35 pm

People are generally quite sensitive and such apologizing statements soothe them greatly.
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Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:56 pm

Tell that to Don Rickles.
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Re: Out having a taco . . .

Postby tandfman » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:21 pm

Marlow wrote: If it was a German and he had said, "Out having a bratwurst." would that be offensive? Italian, spaghetti? Brit, blood pudding?

Yes, yes, and I'll let one of our British friends opine on the blood pudding.
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Postby cacique » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:29 pm

what an ignoramus. everybody knows colombians don't eat tacos.
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Postby TrakFan » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:49 pm

Of course it would offend many people. Just as much as a commentator saying Danica Patrick is out buying Pamprin.
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Postby IanS_Liv » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:09 am

cacique wrote:what an ignoramus. everybody knows colombians don't eat tacos.


They eat arepas in Colombia don't they?
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Re: Out having a taco . . .

Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:29 am

tandfman wrote:
Marlow wrote: If it was a German and he had said, "Out having a bratwurst." would that be offensive? Italian, spaghetti? Brit, blood pudding?

Yes, yes, and I'll let one of our British friends opine on the blood pudding.

So if I'm overseas and someone asks where I am and someone else answers, 'out getting a hot dog,' I should be offended? I think not. I'd just laugh and roll my eyes at the weak attempt at humor.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:36 am

Fuzzy Zoeller says that this much ado about nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ufpU3X-t4w
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:47 am

You can look at this the same way as if Griese had said Michael Jordan was out eating watermelon, fried chicken and collard greens - it would be kind of hard to ignore.
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Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:52 am

I guess my puzzlement is WHY people feel the need to BE offended? I just can't get up the interest to be insulted by something that innocuous. Did Griese INTEND to slight Montoya? Would Montoya himself be seriously offended? Or was it just a weak attempt at humor? If we need to apologize for having weak senses of humor, most of us here would be doing nothing but apologizing!!
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:52 am

Marlow wrote:I guess my puzzlement is WHY people feel the need to BE offended? I just can't get up the interest to be insulted by something that innocuous. Did Griese INTEND to slight Montoya? Would Montoya himself be seriously offended? Or was it just a weak attempt at humor? If we need to apologize for having weak senses of humor, most of us here would be doing nothing but apologizing!!

What I've observed is that the majority/oppressor demographic group is never as offended by these slights as the minority/oppressed demographic group. For example, whenever I hear women cracks jokes about or demean men, I just laugh or brush it off, but women don't react the same when we do it to them. Let's face it, historically women have caught hell from us, not the other way around. Similarly, I don't get too worked up whenever I hear someone insult or demean Catholics, because historically, we've been an oppressor faith, not an oppressed one. The exception to this is Ireland, where Catholics have caught hell from Protestants for centuries, and predictably, Irish Catholics are as sensitive about their faith as Jews and Muslims. However, my race is something that I wear on my sleeve, and anyone who's familiar with American history should be able to understand why Black Americans are much more sensitive to this type of humor than White Americans.
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Postby TrakFan » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:22 am

Marlow wrote:I guess my puzzlement is WHY people feel the need to BE offended? I just can't get up the interest to be insulted by something that innocuous.


I think its a bit more difficult for you to uderstand when you're not part of a gruop that has been marginalized in the past by such innocent appearing comments.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Suppose you're at a heated school meeting with the pricnicipal and several teachers. That principal usually has a habit of saying...let's take a day to go home, have a steak dinner, and continue this tomorrow. However, in this instance he turns to the black teacher and says....you go have a bucket of fried chicken....he tells the asian teacher, you go home and have an egg roll, and he eventually tells the latino teacher --you go home and have a taco.

Surely you could see how those 3 individuals would be offended by that principal's "innocent" suggestion of a typical meal?
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Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:02 am

jazzcyclist wrote:What I've observed is that the majority/oppressor demographic group is never as offended by these slights as the minority/oppressed demographic group.


TrakFan wrote:I think its a bit more difficult for you to uderstand when you're not part of a gruop that has been marginalized in the past by such innocent appearing comments.


I guess it is my mWASP status that makes this so, but I have never had any trouble laughing off attempted insults. Why give the offender the power to hurt you? I usually just feel sorry for them that they feel the need to belittle. And I would NEVER take a 'taco'-type statement as being offensive.
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Postby Mighty Favog » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:38 pm

Marlow, your male WASP status (and mine) means we're automatically assumed to be in the position of power. That blinds us to how others view the relationships of power that our society hands out.

All of these are examples of statements meant to put someone in their place, to give the speaker power over those spoken to. Diversity in its many forms (racial, religious, ethnic, gender, sexuality, etc.) really isn't an issue until issues of unequal power come into play.

Which is more or less what I tell white students who ask me why they can't call a black kid a n***** if (some) black kids use the word themselves. I ask them 1) why do you want to use it? and 2) if you recognize its use when you're in the minority would result in a ass-whuppin' of epic proportions, then you understand it's a word that means unequal power. And I remind them if they use it in my presence, they'll get in serious trouble AND I can't protect them once the final bell rings.
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Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:02 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:All of these are examples of statements meant to put someone in their place, to give the speaker power over those spoken to.

But doesn't one need some major insecurity issues to ALLOW someone to take 'power' over you through words? I get that my mWASP position makes me less vulnerable, but can't ANYone feel secure enough to laugh it off. Zora Neale Hurston, a black Southern female writer in the 20s and 30s, was always AMAZED that anyone would try to put her in her 'place', because she knew how amazing she was! :D
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Postby Mighty Favog » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:16 pm

Right. And we've had 1 black female senator in the entire history of the USA, and zero black female governors or supreme court justices. There's relationships of status, which are in the eye of the beholder, and then there are relationships of power, which are dynamic but very real. Ethnic and racial slurs are insulting because they reference unequal relationships of power between broad groups of people.
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Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:35 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:Ethnic and racial slurs are insulting because they reference unequal relationships of power between broad groups of people.

Agreed. I just can't see how 'out eating a taco (or bratwurst or hot dog)' keeps the haves having and the have-nots not.

In any case, I cede the point, because OBVIOUSLY it must be a problem or ESPN and Griese wouldn't be reacting as they are. I have yet to see that anyone actually said they WERE offended, but I'm sure that will be forthcoming shortly.

edit - I see a blogger has made the comment, "Well, Griese is the color guy in the booth, isn't he?"
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Postby Mighty Favog » Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:36 pm

It doesn't maintain the power structure. It's an in-your-face reminder of the power structure, kind of like marching season in Northern Ireland.
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Postby TrakFan » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:16 pm

Marlow wrote:
But doesn't one need some major insecurity issues to ALLOW someone to take 'power' over you through words? I get that my mWASP position makes me less vulnerable, but can't ANYone feel secure enough to laugh it off. Zora Neale Hurston, a black Southern female writer in the 20s and 30s, was always AMAZED that anyone would try to put her in her 'place', because she knew how amazing she was! :D


You don't need to feel insecure or powerless in order to be offended by words or indirect actions. A good example would be flag burning as a form of protest. It offends some, while others see it as a form of protest. Many Americans see this country as "Amazing". Shouldn't those same people laugh off such feeble attempts by individuals attempting to rile them up?
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:56 am

TrakFan wrote:You don't need to feel insecure or powerless in order to be offended by words or indirect actions. A good example would be flag burning as a form of protest. It offends some, while others see it as a form of protest. Many Americans see this country as "Amazing". Shouldn't those same people laugh off such feeble attempts by individuals attempting to rile them up?

Flag burning is a constitutionally-protected right (IMO) and I see flag-burners the same way I see anyone who tries to put down the USA - that's so sad that these individuals are so clueless to the Big Picture and/or unhappy in their own lives that they have to resort to these kinds of actions. It certainly does not ever make me angry or think less of the USA. It's a reflection of those people trying to 'protest' a great nation (not that we don't have our faults too), not of the nation itself.
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Postby Avante » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:40 am

Some people/groups are just too sensitive.
Last edited by Avante on Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:46 am

Avante wrote:Some peope/groups are just too sensitive.

When you throw out subjective phrases like "too sensitive", it's all in the eyes of the beholder.
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Postby Avante » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:59 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Avante wrote:Some peope/groups are just too sensitive.

When you throw out subjective phrases like "too sensitive", it's all in the eyes of the beholder.


Couldn't agree more.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:04 am

Marlow wrote:Flag burning is a constitutionally-protected right (IMO) and I see flag-burners the same way I see anyone who tries to put down the USA - that's so sad that these individuals are so clueless to the Big Picture and/or unhappy in their own lives that they have to resort to these kinds of actions. It certainly does not ever make me angry or think less of the USA. It's a reflection of those people trying to 'protest' a great nation (not that we don't have our faults too), not of the nation itself.

From reading your post, it would appear that you have more of a reaction to this form of protest than I do. When I see flag burners, I have the same reaction that I have when I see a group of folks watching a bonfire. And I'm guessing that the Jeremiah Wright videos bothered you somewhat, while I thought they were funny. Perhaps this is the point TrakFan is trying to make.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:09 am

jazzcyclist wrote: And I'm guessing that the Jeremiah Wright videos bothered you somewhat, while I thought they were funny.

They don't bother me at all - but I didn't think they were funny - I just feel really sorry for him, that his life has taught him to believe that kind of stuff.
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:17 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: And I'm guessing that the Jeremiah Wright videos bothered you somewhat, while I thought they were funny.

They don't bother me at all - but I didn't think they were funny - I just feel really sorry for him, that his life has taught him to believe that kind of stuff.


Ethic slurs ex catedra are always offensive to me. I don't care, who the person is, Griese, or Wright or whoever from the long list of offenders.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:37 am

Pego wrote:Ethic slurs


Like this ethics slur on lawyers?

After drafting a will for an elderly client, the attorney announced a fee of $100.

The client gave the attorney a $100 bill.

After the client left, the attorney saw that the client had in fact paid $200, as two of the client's $100 bills had stuck together.

Looking at the $100 overpayment, an ethical question arose in the attorney's mind: "Do I tell my partner?"
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:38 am

I thought the Rev's Ravings were quite amusing. The taco comment was not only dumb but insensitive. Doesnt mean the guy who said it is a racist, not enough evidence.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:52 am

Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: And I'm guessing that the Jeremiah Wright videos bothered you somewhat, while I thought they were funny.

They don't bother me at all - but I didn't think they were funny - I just feel really sorry for him, that his life has taught him to believe that kind of stuff.


Ethic slurs ex catedra are always offensive to me. I don't care, who the person is, Griese, or Wright or whoever from the long list of offenders.

Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous. However, I will concede that he criticized the U.S. using unncessarily inflammatory rhetoric.

I sometimes wonder if it's even possible for a WASP male to know what it feels like to be a member of a minority demographic group that has been historically discriminated against. I think that when you are a member of one of these groups, you have a frame of reference for other groups. For example, on election night and the day after the election, I heard several Irish-American pundits and politicians say that they could relate to the reaction in the Black community and that they knew exactly what Blacks were feeling because they felt the same way in 1960. So whenever there is some incident involving some other group such as Jews, Hispanics, women, etc., I always try and relate it to the Black experience.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:09 am

Dr. Phil had a one hour show last friday all about race and stereotypes, very interesting. An Asian woman admitted she found this large black man intimidating so Dr. Phil had them sit together for the whole show and they had to converse during the breaks. She finds out that this man she was afraid of is shy and charming.

Anyway should i be insulted by Farrakhan? I'm not at all.

Farrakhan made several More.. controversial statements about race, including "White people are potential humans � they haven't evolved yet" in March 2000, and "Murder and lying comes easy for white people" in 1994. He has also alluded to a figure called "Yacub" (or "Jacob") with reference to whites.

According to Farrakhan's mentor, Elijah Muhammad, blacks were "born righteous and turned to unrighteousness," while the white race was "made unrighteous by the god who made them (Mr. Yacub)." Farrakhan and other NOI speakers have taught the "White man is the devil!" "The race war is coming and we will kill these white people."
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:15 am

SQUACKEE wrote:white race was "made unrighteous by the god


No propaganda tool is as powerful as making it "God's will".
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Postby Avante » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:31 am

It's when people feel a need to play pretend is what gets me. We are different, that is a fact to act like we aren't...why? What is the big deal? Reality is just that...reality.
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Postby richxx87 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:38 am

I would seriously love to be out having a taco right about now.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:11 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I sometimes wonder if it's even possible for a WASP male to know what it feels like to be a member of a minority demographic group that has been historically discriminated against.

Not that specifically, but it isn't all that hard to be empathetic with ANYone who is being repressed, oppressed, suppressed, as we ALL are that at some point or another (or at least others are trying to do that to us). I outgrew most of my insecurities in college, but again, that's easier for mWASPs than most others. Jokes about mWASPs (which is the majority of militant-feminist humor) are, of course, completely ineffectual, because we ARE in positions of power.
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous.


He didn't.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:46 am

TrakFan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous.


He didn't.


I think we can assume Wright is not very fond of white people, can we not?

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.” (2003)

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.” (magazine article)

“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)

“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary would never know that. Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:21 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
TrakFan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Did Wright ever make any ethnic slurs on those videos? If so, I definitely wouldn't find that humorous.


He didn't.


I think we can assume Wright is not very fond of white people, can we not?

I wouldn't assume that based on those quotes, afterall, his church did have many White members, though they were in the minority. As I said earlier, I would definitely call his rhetoric inflammatory, and I think he has even given folks ammunition with which to attack his patriotism despite the fact that he's a marine veteran, but everything he said is based on historical fact. Anyone who has read the original constitution knows that this country was founded on the principles of White supremacy. Is it not a fact that over the last 500 years, people of European descent have gone all over the planet to exploit and wreak havoc on non-Europeans/people of color? Do you think that it's likely that Hillary Clinton has ever experienced the kind of racism that Blacks have experienced?

Now, there's no doubt that Wright has gone overboard in his criticism of the U.S. when he accuses the government of inventing AIDS and implies that racism is as prevalent today as it is was 200 years ago, but I don't think that makes him a racist, based on my definition of the word.
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:27 am

I don't think using the term "white" or "black" always equates to a slur -- on either side of the color wheel.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:29 am

Wright wrote:We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority

Wow - there's a VERY interesting sub-text underlying that statement. Freud would say that even Rev. Wright seems to believe it!

As Mark Twain pointed out, the really evil consequence of US slavery is that many of the slaves believed that they deserved to be slaves because they felt themselves to be sub-human. Such is what propaganda can do! And the only way to undo it is extensive Behavior Modification. Behavior doesn't follow Attitude as much as Attitude follows Behavior. MAKE people behave in a civil (rights) manner, and eventually they will subsume that as a standard of their own that they will defend.
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