as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues


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Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:58 am

gh wrote:The key to Dr. Pego's analysis is that the same people who decry the science behind immunization are very selective in their thinking and for the most part probably gobble pain-killers and antibiotics (part of the same golden age of medical therapy) without a thought.

It's so much easier to seek relief when one is ill than it is to think about getting ahead of the curve with solid preventitive measures.


Not always a bad thing.
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Postby guru » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:22 pm

gh wrote:The key to Dr. Pego's analysis is that the same people who decry the science behind immunization are very selective in their thinking and for the most part probably gobble pain-killers and antibiotics (part of the same golden age of medical therapy) without a thought.



I know you said most, and not all, but I have taken painkillers once in my adult life - ibuprofen when I had a kidney stone back in '06. A full bottle of vicodin sits unopened in the medicine cabinet(why I let the doc talk me into getting it filled I have no idea).
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Postby mcgato » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:31 pm

gh wrote:The key to Dr. Pego's analysis is that the same people who decry the science behind immunization are very selective in their thinking and for the most part probably gobble pain-killers and antibiotics (part of the same golden age of medical therapy) without a thought.
I wish people would quit assuming that everyone who chose not to get a flu vaccine (me) also believe that all vaccines are bad. Vaccinations given in early childhood against a whole array of diseases are very good, as the child then should never get the disease in question, most of which can be very serious diseases. We don't see tons of people with polio in iron lungs for a reason. I doubt a flu vaccine is even 90% effective in preventing the flu for that season. And the flu is usually not a very serious disease for most healthy people.

Not getting a vaccine to have over a 99.999% chance of preventing a life in an iron lung is stupid.

Not getting a vaccine to have less than a 90% chance of preventing a few days of feeling crappy and throwing up a few times is a chance I'm willing to take. I figure with or without the flu vaccine that I'm going to get the flu every three to five years anyway.
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Postby odelltrclan » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:32 pm

mcgato wrote:
gh wrote:The key to Dr. Pego's analysis is that the same people who decry the science behind immunization are very selective in their thinking and for the most part probably gobble pain-killers and antibiotics (part of the same golden age of medical therapy) without a thought.
I wish people would quit assuming that everyone who chose not to get a flu vaccine (me) also believe that all vaccines are bad. Vaccinations given in early childhood against a whole array of diseases are very good, as the child then should never get the disease in question, most of which can be very serious diseases. We don't see tons of people with polio in iron lungs for a reason. I doubt a flu vaccine is even 90% effective in preventing the flu for that season. And the flu is usually not a very serious disease for most healthy people.

Not getting a vaccine to have over a 99.999% chance of preventing a life in an iron lung is stupid.

Not getting a vaccine to have less than a 90% chance of preventing a few days of feeling crappy and throwing up a few times is a chance I'm willing to take. I figure with or without the flu vaccine that I'm going to get the flu every three to five years anyway.


Very well said ALSO

If I thought that getting the vaccine would have made a significant difference in my life, I would not hesitate. There had been plenty of statistics published about this flu long before the vaccines were available and it made me think twice about getting a flu vaccine, but that is it. This was not the 1918 flu. And it was more than the media that was the difference.

By the way, I do take antibiotics. . . . if I am sick enough to need to go to the doctor and they prescribe it. Fortunately that has not happened more than a couple of times in the last 30 years.
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Postby steve » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:04 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
mcgato wrote:
gh wrote:The key to Dr. Pego's analysis is that the same people who decry the science behind immunization are very selective in their thinking and for the most part probably gobble pain-killers and antibiotics (part of the same golden age of medical therapy) without a thought.
I wish people would quit assuming that everyone who chose not to get a flu vaccine (me) also believe that all vaccines are bad. Vaccinations given in early childhood against a whole array of diseases are very good, as the child then should never get the disease in question, most of which can be very serious diseases. We don't see tons of people with polio in iron lungs for a reason. I doubt a flu vaccine is even 90% effective in preventing the flu for that season. And the flu is usually not a very serious disease for most healthy people.

Not getting a vaccine to have over a 99.999% chance of preventing a life in an iron lung is stupid.

Not getting a vaccine to have less than a 90% chance of preventing a few days of feeling crappy and throwing up a few times is a chance I'm willing to take. I figure with or without the flu vaccine that I'm going to get the flu every three to five years anyway.


Very well said ALSO

If I thought that getting the vaccine would have made a significant difference in my life, I would not hesitate. There had been plenty of statistics published about this flu long before the vaccines were available and it made me think twice about getting a flu vaccine, but that is it. This was not the 1918 flu. And it was more than the media that was the difference.

By the way, I do take antibiotics. . . . if I am sick enough to need to go to the doctor and they prescribe it. Fortunately that has not happened more than a couple of times in the last 30 years.


I think you guys are underestimating the potential of the flu to cause another major epidemic. It's airborne, mutates rapidly to avoid immune surveillance, and, depending on the strain, can have a severe effect on otherwise yung healthy people.

I'm not certain but I think the recent H1N1 was a very similar flu virus to that which caused the 1918 epidemic. If a vaccine and antivirals/other precautions are only even 50% effective, it may be enough to stop the spread and limit deaths.

Then again, there did seem to be a lot of sensationalistic media coverage.
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Postby steve » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:04 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
mcgato wrote:
gh wrote:The key to Dr. Pego's analysis is that the same people who decry the science behind immunization are very selective in their thinking and for the most part probably gobble pain-killers and antibiotics (part of the same golden age of medical therapy) without a thought.
I wish people would quit assuming that everyone who chose not to get a flu vaccine (me) also believe that all vaccines are bad. Vaccinations given in early childhood against a whole array of diseases are very good, as the child then should never get the disease in question, most of which can be very serious diseases. We don't see tons of people with polio in iron lungs for a reason. I doubt a flu vaccine is even 90% effective in preventing the flu for that season. And the flu is usually not a very serious disease for most healthy people.

Not getting a vaccine to have over a 99.999% chance of preventing a life in an iron lung is stupid.

Not getting a vaccine to have less than a 90% chance of preventing a few days of feeling crappy and throwing up a few times is a chance I'm willing to take. I figure with or without the flu vaccine that I'm going to get the flu every three to five years anyway.


Very well said ALSO

If I thought that getting the vaccine would have made a significant difference in my life, I would not hesitate. There had been plenty of statistics published about this flu long before the vaccines were available and it made me think twice about getting a flu vaccine, but that is it. This was not the 1918 flu. And it was more than the media that was the difference.

By the way, I do take antibiotics. . . . if I am sick enough to need to go to the doctor and they prescribe it. Fortunately that has not happened more than a couple of times in the last 30 years.


I think you guys are underestimating the potential of the flu to cause another major epidemic. It's airborne, mutates rapidly to avoid immune surveillance, and, depending on the strain, can have a severe effect on otherwise yung healthy people.

I'm not certain but I think the recent H1N1 was a very similar flu virus to that which caused the 1918 epidemic. If a vaccine and antivirals/other precautions are only even 50% effective, it may be enough to stop the spread and limit deaths.

Then again, there did seem to be a lot of sensationalistic media coverage.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby gh » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:27 pm

Whooping cough on record pace in California

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

let's hope there's a decent response rate among those needing vaccinations.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Pego » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:11 pm

gh wrote:Whooping cough on record pace in California

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

let's hope there's a decent response rate among those needing vaccinations.


I am pretty sure, I am the only poster here that actually saw cases of whooping cough. Those blue faces of children unable to stop hacking you don't forget. Parents that refuse the immunization should be made to watch these films for a while.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby catson52 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:18 pm

Pego wrote:
gh wrote:Whooping cough on record pace in California

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

let's hope there's a decent response rate among those needing vaccinations.


I am pretty sure, I am the only poster here that actually saw cases of whooping cough. Those blue faces of children unable to stop hacking you don't forget. Parents that refuse the immunization should be made to watch these films for a while.


Fully agree - having seen some cases of kids with whooping cough.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby guru » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:10 am

43% of US H1N1 vaccine supply to be destroyed after expiring unused, to the tune of over $300 million.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38033294/ns/health/
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Re:

Postby guru » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:41 pm

guru wrote:
gh wrote:The more high-risk people who get shot up, the fewer potential Typhoid Marys there are out there to spread it to the rest of the populace.

(again, this is speaking vaccination in general, not focusing on Swine Flu)



Nobody is saying "high risk" people shouldn't get the vaccine, including me in this very thread.

But in general, you have to think twice about getting something put into your body that has risk such that federal legislation specifically protects the manufacturers/providers from legal liability.



That protection may soon be coming to an end.

http://www.onthedocket.org/cases/2009/b ... tz-v-wyeth

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... =D9IQCQ000
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby cornstarchwilson » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:09 am

90% of the improvement in health over the last 100 years resulted from improvement in hygiene not from any advancement in medical science.

The availability of clean, safe drinking water is a key. The safe disposal of waste is another.

The improvement in the health of doctor's patients went up significantly when the doctors began to wash their hands before each examination.

A significant percentage of patients in hospitals die not from the ailment they were admitted for, but from ailments they contracted while staying in the hospital.

Is there any truth to the rumor that the company that produces most of the swine flu vaccines is owned by one of the Bush crew?
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:15 am

cornstarchwilson wrote:90% of the improvement in health over the last 100 years resulted from improvement in hygiene not from any advancement in medical science.

While 'cleanliness' has made a HUGE difference in public health, it accounts for much less of the improvement than the introduction of sophisticated medicines and improved treatments/surgeries. The radical improvements made in the treatment of heart diseases and cancers is an example.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:20 am

cornstarchwilson wrote:90% of the improvement in health over the last 100 years resulted from improvement in hygiene not from any advancement in medical science.


Not remotely close to 90%


cornstarchwilson wrote:A significant percentage of patients in hospitals die not from the ailment they were admitted for, but from ailments they contracted while staying in the hospital.


What do you consider "significant percentage?"

It never fails to amaze me how virtually every debate dealing with issues such as immunization or variable "alternative healing options" end up with somebody eager to blast traditional medicine or its providers.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby DrJay » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:34 pm

And with wild claims made without data to back them up (see above quote, "A significant percentage of patients in hospitals die not from the ailment they were admitted for, but from ailments they contracted while staying in the hospital.")
Last edited by DrJay on Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:19 pm

Intentionally misquoting DrJay, who wrote:A significant percentage of patients in hospitals die not from the ailment they were admitted for, but from ailments they contracted while staying in the hospital.

That's scary, especially coming from someone in the know! :? So DrJay, are you a member of the death panel at your local hospital? 8-)
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby El Toro » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:07 pm

It is important to understand the distinction between health effects at an individual and population level. While advanced technology may benefit an individual to a significant degree, there is no guarantee that this will have a net positive effect at a population level. In fact, the resources devoted to that individual may detract from population health in a number of ways.

A nice general audience article outlining the complex interactions and occasional counterintuitive impacts of modern medicine (with references) can be found here http://www.novamagazine.com.au/article_ ... dicine.htm

Don't discount the article because of the publication it is in because the references used are to legitimate research. One of the main references,The role of medical care in contributing to health improvements within societies, is published in the International Journal of Epidemiology and can be found here http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/6/1260.full

The IJE was rated by the Australian Research Council world-wide peer assessment groups as an A* journal, the same as Nature, so it's not produced by an anti-science ideologue and published by hippies.

ARC definition: Typically an A* journal would be one of the best in its field or subfield in which to publish and would typically cover the entire field/subfield. Virtually all papers they publish will be of a very high quality. These are journals where most of the work is important (it will really shape the field) and where researchers boast about getting accepted. Acceptance rates would typically be low and the editorial board would be dominated by field leaders, including many from top institutions.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby gh » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:38 am

I scanned the article quickly and it sounded like a bit of a commercial for holistic medicine to me.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:09 pm

gh wrote:I scanned the article quickly and it sounded like a bit of a commercial for holistic medicine to me.


How do you take something like that seriously. The whole thing is just one big advertisement.

For example:

A major Australian study found an association between increasing mortality and an increase in the doctor supply , which is attributed to increasing adversities or complications caused by, or resulting from, medical treatment within society.

What does that mean? It could mean healthy people tend to not go to the doctor. And people who are mortally ill do.

As for cleanliness beats all, this is from the current issue of the New York Review.

"The mutation of polio into a serious disease can be blamed on improved standards of hygiene. The polio virus is passed on via human feces (the virus breeds in the small intestine). A regime of hand-washing, regular baths, and clean underwear cuts down transmission. The catch is that clean habits rob communities of resistance to the virus; and when nonresistant older children and adults contract the disease, it tends to take an extreme form. Thus the very measures that subdued diseases like cholera, typhus, tuberculosis, and diphtheria made poliomyelitis a threat to life.

The paradox that while strict hygiene lessens the risk to individuals, it weakens resistance and turns the disease lethal, was not widely grasped in the heyday of polio. In afflicted communities, eruptions of polio would trigger parallel and no less morbid eruptions of anxiety, despair, and misdirected rage. "

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... ral-brink/

And yes it is a review of a novel and not a scientific article, but still worth noting the importance of the polio vaccine.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby El Toro » Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:36 pm

Conor Dary wrote:How do you take something like that seriously. The whole thing is just one big advertisement.


The article advertises no product at all, only a better understanding of elements contributing to population health.

Conor Dary wrote:For example:

A major Australian study found an association between increasing mortality and an increase in the doctor supply , which is attributed to increasing adversities or complications caused by, or resulting from, medical treatment within society.

What does that mean? It could mean healthy people tend to not go to the doctor. And people who are mortally ill do.


If you had done any follow up or thinking you would have not have embarrassed yourself with such a ridiculaous statement. Here is the author of that paper you refer to http://www.buseco.monash.edu.au/centres ... rdson.html - clearly an friggin anti science hippy :roll: and here is the paper http://www.buseco.monash.edu.au/centres ... /wp137.pdf if you care to stick to "facts not fiction" rather than mere handwaving. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handwaving
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby gh » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:03 pm

Anti-vaccination sentiment running high in private schools.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/AP-E ... 851495.php
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby jhc68 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:44 pm

Private and home schooled kids are too special to get sick.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Daisy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:47 am

jhc68 wrote:Private and home schooled kids are too special to get sick.

Are the bookies running odds for when the first epidemic strikes?
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:42 am

gh wrote:Anti-vaccination sentiment running high in private schools.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/AP-E ... 851495.php


California lawmakers are considering a first-in-the-nation bill that would require parents to discuss vaccinations with pediatricians or nurse practitioners before they would be allowed to exempt their children


That's not first-in-the-nation, Washington state already requires this if you are taking a personal exemption (you don't have to do it if you claim a religious exemption). I had Eddie in daycare twice a week for a month while my husband started a new job several hours away, and I had to make a 45 minute trip to the pediatricians office to get the paperwork signed because we are delaying the Hep B vaccine. It was a pretty big PIA at the time.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:22 am

Pretty insane. Back to the early 20th century, like when my father was born in 1910, when epidemic diseases, like whooping cough were common. Or even pre 1954, when I was born and the polio vaccine was not around.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:28 am

Conor Dary wrote:Pretty insane. Back to the early 20th century, like when my father was born in 1910, when epidemic diseases, like whooping cough were common. Or even pre 1954, when I was born and the polio vaccine was not around.


Not all vaccines are equal. I choose to do most vaccines on time. It's great that we have options, and it's great that diseases like polio have been almost eliminated.

The latest whooping cough vaccine is not very effective. We're having a major epidemic of it up here is WA, and the vaccination rates for it are higher than ever. The vaccinated kids are getting it at the same, or worse, rates than the unvaccinated kids. They're also the ones spreading it around, because they get less sick when they get it, so they often don't know they have it, and keep showing up for school/work/daycare. The CDC is investigating whether or not improperly stored and expired vaccines are contributing to the outbreak here.

FWIW we did all of the pertussis shots on time, even making a special appointment for the 15-month shot. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I also don't demonize parents who make an educated decision about delaying or skipping some shots.

The vast majority of readers on this message board had only a fraction of the vaccines that kids today do. That's not a bad thing, but it's not all a good thing either. Most of us have a natural immunity to chicken pox. It's going to be interesting to see how well the chicken pox vaccine provides a lifetime of protection. Adults tend to be very bad about getting routine booster shots. I would rather my kid get a natural immunity to chicken pox, but if they don't by the time they are 10-12 we'll get the vaccine. No one in our family has ever had a bad reaction to chicken pox.

How many of you are up to date on your Tdap? How many of you even know off the top of your head how often you are supposed to get it?
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby jeremyp » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:30 am

Usually one equates private schools with better education. Obviously not so much. To allow your child to get immunized from a disease by contracting it naturally, rather than through vaccination, shows that the autism/vaccine paranoia still lives on. I just contracted Shingles. I was about to get vaccinated. Wish I had been, as I think the side effects would have been easier than the disease.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:59 am

jeremyp wrote:Usually one equates private schools with better education. Obviously not so much. To allow your child to get immunized from a disease by contracting it naturally, rather than through vaccination, shows that the autism/vaccine paranoia still lives on. I just contracted Shingles. I was about to get vaccinated. Wish I had been, as I think the side effects would have been easier than the disease.


My child has not had every vaccine they are supposed to at this age, and I am not the least bit concerned about autism. Not everyone who chooses to not blindly follow the AAP is blindly rejecting all vaccines, or doing it because of autism fears.

I would suggest that the vaccination rate is lower _because_ the parents are more educated, but I don't actually know that.

However, I don't think it majorly infringes on your personal liberty to have to consult with a doctor or nurse before opting out. You don't _have_ to send your child to daycare or school, and most pediatricians will just sign the form after making sure you are somewhat aware of the risks of opting out.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby gh » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:04 pm

And then there's fluoride:

<<....It's a dental story told so often it borders on cliche.
When someone moves to Portland from another state - and that's most people you meet in this city of transplants - their new dentist takes one look at their excellent teeth and concludes they must have been raised elsewhere, a place that puts fluoride in its drinking water....>>


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Po ... z26Hu807p5
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:06 pm

I have heard some pretty wacko stuff about fluoride. My fave is that the nazis used fluoride to make their prisoners more docile, and that the government puts it in our water to make us more docile :lol:
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Pego » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:22 pm

polevaultpower wrote: I would rather my kid get a natural immunity to chicken pox, but if they don't by the time they are 10-12 we'll get the vaccine. No one in our family has ever had a bad reaction to chicken pox.


Chicken pox hardly ever represents a major problem. I could count on fingers of one hand all cases of chicken pox encephalitis I encountered in 1/2 century. The problem with your attitude of trying to cherry pick standards is that it may (perhaps, if you are lucky) work on an individual case, but as a herd immunity is concerned, the system breaks down when too many people think that way. You probably know more about the stats and problems with pertussis vaccination in Washington State, that is not something I would comment on, but I would still say that properly vaccinated population has a better chance of not getting massively infected than the one that is not. I have seen bad cases of pertussis, I have seen diphteria, it is not a pretty sight.

Lastly a response to jeremyp. Too bad you did not get the shot early enough, zoster is a bitch. Hopefully it will not become neuralgic. BTW, I did get the shot once it became available.

polevaultpower wrote:My fave is that the nazis used fluoride to make their prisoners more docile


That was bromide :wink: .
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby j-a-m » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:32 pm

polevaultpower wrote:I have heard some pretty wacko stuff about fluoride.

Here's a serious question about fluoride, though. The health benefit comes from teeth getting exposure to fluoride. And potential health concerns come from fluoride being digested. So wouldn't it make much more sense to just put the fluoride into toothpaste instead of into the drinking water?
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:55 pm

Pego wrote:You probably know more about the stats and problems with pertussis vaccination in Washington State, that is not something I would comment on, but I would still say that properly vaccinated population has a better chance of not getting massively infected than the one that is not. I have seen bad cases of pertussis, I have seen diphteria, it is not a pretty sight.


I am not anti-pertussis vaccine. It's a bitch to get pertussis at any age if you are not vaccinated. A friend my age recently got it and it was not fun. We all, everyone in my extended family plus the kid, got vaccinated. Generally the vaccinated get a milder form of the disease.

I am anti-blaming those who chose not to get the vaccine for the latest outbreak, when the evidence (at least locally) says otherwise.

I think the outbreak here is actually far worse than the CDC knows. Only the fairly bad cases are getting tested. I think a lot of kids are getting pertussis and no one realizes it. Heck, my kid had a cough off and on for months that we never got checked out. I think it was probably just allergies, but I can't say for sure that he did not have a mild case of pertussis.



That was bromide :wink: .



Fluoride, bromide... they both end in "ide" so close enough, right :lol:
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby j-a-m » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:17 am

gh wrote:Anti-vaccination sentiment running high in private schools.

"Opt-out" indicates that if parents don't get active one way or the other, then the child gets vaccinated. If that's correct, then out of those that get their children vaccinated, some do because they think it's the right decision, other because they don't make any decision at all. So if this is really "opt-out", then the actual number of vaccination supporters among parents may be significantly smaller than it initially seems.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby jeremyp » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:19 am

polevaultpower wrote:
I would suggest that the vaccination rate is lower _because_ the parents are more educated, but I don't actually know that.
People in private schools usually are, but are these parents making these decisions because they are really educated about vaccines or because they follow the herd? Do we really want to see contagions again? Who is driving the "no vaccines" mantra anyway? It would be interesting to know.
http://bigthink.com/age-of-engagement/t ... h?page=all
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby gh » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:55 am

having had more years of school and "being educated" are, of course, two completely different things. If you close your mind to science, doesn't matter how many years you spend in school or hhow high your grade-point is.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Daisy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:04 am

gh wrote:or how high your grade-point is.

Interestingly, some of the best graduate students don't have great gpa's.

We are so swamped with information now, the real skill required is to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. From what I have seen in the news, the anti-vaccination camp perpetuate some of the flawed reasoning as 'truth'.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:15 am

Daisy wrote:
gh wrote:or how high your grade-point is.

Interestingly, some of the best graduate students don't have great gpa's.

We are so swamped with information now, the real skill required is to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. From what I have seen in the news, the anti-vaccination camp perpetuate some of the flawed reasoning as 'truth'.


    The forces of irrationality are arrayed on this issue. There are conspiracy theorists, well-meaning but misguided citizen groups who are becoming increasingly desperate and hostile, irresponsible journalists, and ethically compromised or incompetent scientists. The science itself is complex, making it difficult for the average person to sift through all the misdirection and misinformation. Standing against all this is simple respect for scientific integrity and the dedication to follow the evidence wherever it leads.

    Right now the evidence leads to the firm conclusion that vaccines do not cause autism. Yet, if history is any guide, the myth that they do cause autism will likely endure even in the face of increasing contradictory evidence.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/anti-vaccination_movement
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby j-a-m » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:21 pm

gh wrote:having had more years of school and "being educated" are, of course, two completely different things. If you close your mind to science, doesn't matter how many years you spend in school or hhow high your grade-point is.

That's correct; and people closing their mind to science can be found on both sides of this issue.
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Re: as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:52 pm

j-a-m wrote:
gh wrote:having had more years of school and "being educated" are, of course, two completely different things. If you close your mind to science, doesn't matter how many years you spend in school or hhow high your grade-point is.

That's correct; and people closing their mind to science can be found on both sides of this issue.


Both sides? :roll:
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