as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Postby Pego » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:09 pm

tandfman wrote:
lonewolf wrote:I remember the mass all-in-one-at-once shots on induction into the military but I don't remember it as being especially painful or traumatic. It was not optional and we were pre-conditoned, I suspect, with horror tales to expect it to be worse than it actually was. I think we mostly just shrugged it off as a macho thing.

I have the same recollection. I remember the shot guns. We walked one by one through a room where you passed guys with guns on either side of us. We'd get a shot in each arm, walk a few steps forward and then the next team would shoot us. We all survived.


When I was in the Czechoslovak military in the early sixties, we still used needles.
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Postby 2 cents » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:17 pm

gh wrote:Another left-wing plot by the New York Times: confuse people with actual facts!


Spoken like a dyed-in-the-wool commie with anti-American bullshit leanings. This is America. Consider this a cancellaton of my subscription to the New York Times... :wink:
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Postby Gordon18 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:26 pm

Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:36 pm

Gordon18 wrote:Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM


Since this is a public forum that might not protect me from legal troubles, I am not commenting.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:39 pm

Gordon18 wrote:Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM




The uneducated ones, sure.

I wish news stations would do stories on all the non-"amazingly beautiful" people that die of the flu every year.
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:06 pm

Anyone who takes their medical advice from tabloid-style TV news would do mankind a favor by removing their DNA from the gene pool.
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Postby bad hammy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:18 pm

It is interesting that in my google news search on this woman the only brand name media outlet hyping this story is . . . . . Fox.

Was also told by a doctor who knows this stuff (dystonia) first hand that from his perspective this is a total fraud, or at least not dystonia.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:32 pm

Pego wrote:
Gordon18 wrote:Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM


Since this is a public forum that might not protect me from legal troubles, I am not commenting.


Please tell me this is a crock. That is what I would guess, after seeing her jogging and walking backwards gait, plus her speech improving while jogging.
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:38 pm

All I am going to say is that I have never seen organic dystonia behaving in this manner.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:19 pm

But her trial lawyer no doubt has! Also his hired-gun, can't-earn-a-living-practicing-real-medicine expert witnesses.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:23 pm

Her spastic movements look pretty much volitional to me.

Maybe she and Daddy Balloon Boy can get a two-for one deal on a defense attorney once she is exposed.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:25 pm

You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!
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Postby Daisy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:26 pm

DrJay wrote:Her spastic movements look pretty much volitional to me.

A miraculous recovery around the corner?
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:49 pm

DrJay wrote:You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!


Do you actually practice medicine? Or do you simply play a doctor on message boards? Do you really think you can diagnose this woman from your laptop?
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Postby rasb » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:51 pm

Not very difficult to diagnose, with or without an MD. What a joke !
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:58 pm

rasb wrote:Not very difficult to diagnose, with or without an MD. What a joke !


Listen, I am not saying a flu shot is causing this woman's condition. I am not certain her condition is genuine. But you are manifesting ignorance with your above comment.
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Postby Marlow » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:04 pm

2 cents wrote:But you are manifesting ignorance with your above comment.

Is that a lot like being a delusional lunatic that insists he sees things that aren't actually there?
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:05 pm

2 cents wrote:
DrJay wrote:You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!


Do you actually practice medicine? Or do you simply play a doctor on message boards? Do you really think you can diagnose this woman from your laptop?


I have studied and practiced the craft of neurology including movement disorder in excess of 40 years. I think, I can offer a pretty decent guess.
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:07 pm

Well, guess away, Pego, guess away....I guess this is multiple choice...
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:11 pm

2 cents wrote:Well, guess away, Pego, guess away....I guess this is multiple choice...


Precisely. Three options in differential diagnosis. Organic dystonia is not among them.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:14 pm

2 cents wrote:
DrJay wrote:You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!


Do you actually practice medicine? Or do you simply play a doctor on message boards? Do you really think you can diagnose this woman from your laptop?


I'm a general internist, in real life. I am not a neurologist--pego is, read his brief comments--but I've seen enough neurologic illness in my 18 years since completing my residency to view that video with a whopping big dose of skepticism. I don't think it is possible to have those movements as an involuntary part of a neurologic illness (as opposed to a psychiatric illness, such as a conversion disorder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder)

yet have very close to normal motor function simply by changing to a trot or backwards walking. Like I said, her movements look volitional to me. If she came to me as a patient, I would send her to a good neurologist. I suspect he/she would say this is not any form of dystonia, or any other neurologic disease.
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:17 pm

If you suspect she may have a psychiatric disorder, or a psychogenic disorder, would that be a good reason to mock her?
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:24 pm

I've seen patients who claimed one entire side of their body was numb, from crown of the head to tips of the toes, right up to their midline, with absolutely no other neurologic symptoms whatsoever....not possible, there is no neurologic lesion that can do that. A friend who worked for the Public Health Service in the hills of eastern Kentucky had a few patients come in, proclaiming in a preacherly sort of dramatic voice, "Doctah! Doctah! Ahm BLAHND! Ah kint SEE! Jesus strook me BLAHND!" and they could see, they had no illness making them blind. We can't always find a precise explanation for some symptoms, but we can often say "X" is definitely NOT due to "Y" and I'm pretty sure this lady's movements are not due to a neurologic movement disorder. Again, I'll defer to a neurologist.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:35 pm

2 cents wrote:If you suspect she may have a psychiatric disorder, or a psychogenic disorder, would that be a good reason to mock her?


Point well taken. It may not be fair, but in the world of publicity-seeking balloon boy fathers and ambulance-chasing lawyers, it's hard for me not to look at this in a negative way. She didn't come in to my office seeking help, she came via youtube and Channel 16, with a claim that the flu shot "did this" to her. One would hope Channel 16 would have a physician-consultant they would check with before airing such a story. But no. This is precisely the sort of mindset that leads to multi-billion dollar settlements between Dow Corning and women who claim their silicone breast implants caused their rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus, or fibromyalgia, even though such a connection has been proven in valid scientific studies NOT to exist. Why do we ignore rational science in this country, in favor of sound bites, snake oil, and hysteria?
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Postby rasb » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:39 pm

2 cents wrote:
rasb wrote:Not very difficult to diagnose, with or without an MD. What a joke !


Listen, I am not saying a flu shot is causing this woman's condition. I am not certain her condition is genuine. But you are manifesting ignorance with your above comment.


Really ? How incredibly clever of you, to notice my ignorance... We are blessed by your genius, and I, for one, can't wait to get your 3 cents worth.
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Postby bad hammy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:47 pm

DrJay wrote:It may not be fair, but in the world of . . . ambulance-chasing lawyers, it's hard for me not to look at this in a negative way.

Especially if your a doctor, right Jay?

(where is that smiley thingy?)
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:52 pm

rasb wrote:Really ? How incredibly clever of you, to notice my ignorance..


Yes, I would concur that you can call me Captain Obvious for ascertaining your ignorance...
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:53 pm

2 cents wrote:If you suspect she may have a psychiatric disorder, or a psychogenic disorder, would that be a good reason to mock her?


Let's assume she has a conversion disorder, because if this is simply an attempt to build a lawsuit, a la the finger-in-the-chili at Wendy's, then she should just be jailed.

In my experience, when you try to work with these folks (speaking as if this is a conversion disorder), in a rational and compassionate manner (yes, believe it or not, I have some compassion for people), they, and particulary their spouse and other family members, treat you as if you are the Devil incarnate, as if you are a complete idiot, as if you never went to medical school. They get nasty, tell you to your face that what you are saying is wrong and "unacceptable". "You need to do more tests," they say. "You're jumping to conclusions," they proclaim. Then, "We want to see a specialist." "Well, Mrs. Smith, you already saw a very good neurologist, the best in town, and he agreed that this is not a neurologic disorder such as dystonia. He also felt you have a conversion disorder, like we discussed." "Well, he doesn't know what he's talking about." They make threats. Then, fortunately, they move on to another physician and repeat the same.

Sound familiar, pego???
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:55 pm

bad hammy wrote:
DrJay wrote:It may not be fair, but in the world of . . . ambulance-chasing lawyers, it's hard for me not to look at this in a negative way.

Especially if your a doctor, right Jay?

(where is that smiley thingy?)


Oh yeah....and people who come in complaing of bad hammys are the WORST!! :D :)
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:58 pm

DrJay wrote:
2 cents wrote:If you suspect she may have a psychiatric disorder, or a psychogenic disorder, would that be a good reason to mock her?


Let's assume she has a conversion disorder, because if this is simply an attempt to build a lawsuit, a la the finger-in-the-chili at Wendy's, then she should just be jailed.

In my experience, when you try to work with these folks (speaking as if this is a conversion disorder), in a rational and compassionate manner (yes, believe it or not, I have some compassion for people), they treat you as if you are the Devil incarnate, as if you are a complete idiot. They get nasty, tell you to your face that what you are saying is wrong and "unacceptable". "You're jumping to conclusions," they proclaim. "Well, he doesn't know what he's talking about." They make threats.


It sounds like you're describing what happens on this board when most of these jokers start discussing politics...
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Postby Daisy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:00 pm

DrJay wrote:Oh yeah....and people who come in complaing of bad hammys are the WORST!! :D :)

Worse than those complaining of whiplash?
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:10 pm

To be fair, the medical profession is not all squeaky-clean. We have our share of charlatans and publicity-seekers as well.
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:13 pm

DrJay wrote:Sound familiar, pego???


One of the things I don't mind having left behind.

BTW, conversion, somatization, dissociation I always liked. I am fascinated by all aspects of hysterical disorders. It's those other things you mention that make you sick.
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Postby no one » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:14 pm

Factitious disorder
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Postby rasb » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:15 pm

2 cents wrote:
rasb wrote:Really ? How incredibly clever of you, to notice my ignorance..


Yes, I would concur that you can call me Captain Obvious for ascertaining your ignorance...


So, mister couple of pennies worth, lie back on my couch, and try your best to explain when you first remember the "you can call me Captain", complex developing in your psyche....:)
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Postby gh » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:16 pm

guru wrote:
Marlow wrote:I thought I read that 250,000,000 (!!!) vaccines were ordered for the USA and the first batches are rolling out now!!!!!



You did. There will be more than enough for anyone who wants one.


from my paper this morning:

<<Public health authorities have been lecturing people for months to get the swine flu vaccine, but to those who actually listened: Good luck finding it.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for months has said that the vaccine would be widely available - with about 50 million doses - by mid-October. But as the end of the month approaches, fewer than 13 million doses have been delivered to states.....>>



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... z0UhXnDBUg
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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:18 pm

It was supposed to be easily available to all medical students here at the beginning of this month. We're 2/3 of the way through October and we're still receiving emails from Health Services stating "still no word on those H1N1 vaccines yet, sorry guys . . . "
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Postby Daisy » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:35 pm

BisonHurdler wrote:It was supposed to be easily available to all medical students here at the beginning of this month. We're 2/3 of the way through October and we're still receiving emails from Health Services stating "still no word on those H1N1 vaccines yet, sorry guys . . . "

It's in our local schools now. They start vaccinating next week.
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Postby 2 cents » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:41 pm

I recently heard somebody say that flu vaccines are like beanie babies...some people will line up for hours in parking lots to get them...and some people despise them...
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Postby Zat0pek » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:02 pm

DrJay wrote: Also his hired-gun, can't-earn-a-living-practicing-real-medicine expert witnesses.


Not true. Being an expert witness (in anything, not just medicine) pays handsomely (whether a plaintiffs or defense witness) and there are a large number of engineers, physicians, accountants, etc. who would love to be experts but don't have the CV or experience for it.

But, yes, there is a certain term that we all use for those experts (in any discipline) who will sell you whatever opinion you want; it's nomally applied to the less sophisticated practioners of the world's oldest profession.
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