as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues


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Postby guru » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:23 am

Marlow wrote:I thought I read that 250,000,000 (!!!) vaccines were ordered for the USA and the first batches are rolling out now!!!!!



You did. There will be more than enough for anyone who wants one.
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Postby gh » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:25 am

When I had my boring-old-normal flu shot a couple of weeks ago, the pharmacist said it would be months before anything trickled down to low-risk people.
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:25 am

guru wrote:
Marlow wrote:I thought I read that 250,000,000 (!!!) vaccines were ordered for the USA and the first batches are rolling out now!!!!!



You did. There will be more than enough for anyone who wants one.


The larger number of doses available is the result of only needing one shot, not two, and of needling less per shot that initially planned. Both of these things are a good deal for developing countries that would otherwise have trouble getting enough does at an acceptable cost.
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Postby gh » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:34 am

BisonHurdler wrote:I.....

We're essentially required to get both the standard Influenza Vaccine as well as the H1N1 Vaccine at school.


Back in the day I took Bact 310 (Medical Microbiology) and since we were playing with pathogens, before class started we had to go get shot up.

So all at once I had shots for DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis), smallpox, typhoid and paratyphoid A&B plus a swallow of Sabin polio.

Fell asleep about 2 hours later and didn't wake up for almost 24.
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:38 am

gh wrote:
BisonHurdler wrote:I.....

We're essentially required to get both the standard Influenza Vaccine as well as the H1N1 Vaccine at school.


Back in the day I took Bact 310 (Medical Microbiology) and since we were playing with pathogens, before class started we had to go get shot up.

So all at once I had shots for DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis), smallpox, typhoid and paratyphoid A&B plus a swallow of Sabin polio.

Fell asleep about 2 hours later and didn't wake up for almost 24.


Yea, like basic training where they get everyone up to date with shoots in a short period of time and I was more shot-phobic then than I am now.
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Postby gh » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:47 am

When my father was in basic they didn't want anybody to get out of a day's training by claiming a sore arm so they gave all the shots in the chest!
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:04 am

Was it just a military thing or has anyone else ever been subjected to "The Gun"?! It was like a nail gun in that it was big electronic thing with about 100 shots in it and they lined us all up and shot us about 8 times each before our overseas deplyment. I shudder to think about the contamination factors involved, but by the end of the barrage, my shoulder was a bloody mess. It turns out that If you had just been lifting weights beforehand, your muscles tended to twitch DURING the injection, which just made sure the gun shredded the site.
YEEEEOOOOWWWCCCHHH!
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Postby Pego » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:19 pm

26mi235 wrote:
gh wrote:
BisonHurdler wrote:I.....

We're essentially required to get both the standard Influenza Vaccine as well as the H1N1 Vaccine at school.


Back in the day I took Bact 310 (Medical Microbiology) and since we were playing with pathogens, before class started we had to go get shot up.

So all at once I had shots for DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis), smallpox, typhoid and paratyphoid A&B plus a swallow of Sabin polio.

Fell asleep about 2 hours later and didn't wake up for almost 24.


Yea, like basic training where they get everyone up to date with shoots in a short period of time and I was more shot-phobic then than I am now.


I have never seen so many faintings as I did, when we vaccinated incoming soldiers. Dropping like flies :-).
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Postby lonewolf » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:44 pm

I remember the mass all-in-one-at-once shots on induction into the military but I don't remember it as being especially painful or traumatic. It was not optional and we were pre-conditoned, I suspect, with horror tales to expect it to be worse than it actually was. I think we mostly just shrugged it off as a macho thing.
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Postby Speedfirst » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:37 pm

Marlow wrote:Was it just a military thing or has anyone else ever been subjected to "The Gun"?! It was like a nail gun in that it was big electronic thing with about 100 shots in it and they lined us all up and shot us about 8 times
each before our overseas deplyment. I shudder to think about the contamination factors involved, but by the end of the barrage, my shoulder was a bloody mess. It turns out that If you had just been lifting weights beforehand, your muscles tended to twitch DURING the injection, which just made sure the gun shredded the site.
YEEEEOOOOWWWCCCHHH!

Marlow I remember that
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Postby 26mi235 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:01 am

I never did twitch and so did not get the bloody arm, but our shots were a little spread out and we were not getting overseas shots.

As for the H1N1 studies. A set of four country studies was just released. In Canada, the average age of 168 patients studied was 32.2 years and they were generally healthy adults even if underlying factors such as asthma and weight existed. 33 died -- about 20%. I think that 4% of those identified with flu got severely ill and so the fatality rate is almost 1%. In Mexico, those with severe illness were a larger fraction of the total and the mortality rate was higher.

In Canada, although the first wave was not very big some major cities were on the verge of having to fly patients out for treatment and were almost out of drugs for treatment.

There have been rapid rates of infection. In the Dells last week more than 200 of the 5xx students were out before the week was even over and they closed school -- that is an infection rate of over 50%. If the town gets 50% and even 1% (much less 4%) go to intensive care they will outstrip the ability to have respirators. The only real barrier is vaccination.

What rate of complications with this flu get close to those sorts of statistics?
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Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:55 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/opinion/12offit.html

Headline: Nothing to Fear but the Flu Itself

Public health officials are now battling not only a fast-spreading influenza virus but also unfounded fears about the vaccine that can prevent it.
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Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:58 pm

It's all a Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy ! Worst yet, maybe the COMMUNISTS are behind it ! Be an AMERICAN !!! Don't get a left wing, pinko, commie flu shot !!!
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Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:59 pm

lonewolf wrote:I remember the mass all-in-one-at-once shots on induction into the military but I don't remember it as being especially painful or traumatic. It was not optional and we were pre-conditoned, I suspect, with horror tales to expect it to be worse than it actually was. I think we mostly just shrugged it off as a macho thing.

I have the same recollection. I remember the shot guns. We walked one by one through a room where you passed guys with guns on either side of us. We'd get a shot in each arm, walk a few steps forward and then the next team would shoot us. We all survived.
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Postby gh » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:02 pm

Another left-wing plot by the New York Times: confuse people with actual facts!
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Postby Pego » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:09 pm

tandfman wrote:
lonewolf wrote:I remember the mass all-in-one-at-once shots on induction into the military but I don't remember it as being especially painful or traumatic. It was not optional and we were pre-conditoned, I suspect, with horror tales to expect it to be worse than it actually was. I think we mostly just shrugged it off as a macho thing.

I have the same recollection. I remember the shot guns. We walked one by one through a room where you passed guys with guns on either side of us. We'd get a shot in each arm, walk a few steps forward and then the next team would shoot us. We all survived.


When I was in the Czechoslovak military in the early sixties, we still used needles.
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Postby 2 cents » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:17 pm

gh wrote:Another left-wing plot by the New York Times: confuse people with actual facts!


Spoken like a dyed-in-the-wool commie with anti-American bullshit leanings. This is America. Consider this a cancellaton of my subscription to the New York Times... :wink:
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Postby Gordon18 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:26 pm

Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:36 pm

Gordon18 wrote:Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM


Since this is a public forum that might not protect me from legal troubles, I am not commenting.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:39 pm

Gordon18 wrote:Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM




The uneducated ones, sure.

I wish news stations would do stories on all the non-"amazingly beautiful" people that die of the flu every year.
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:06 pm

Anyone who takes their medical advice from tabloid-style TV news would do mankind a favor by removing their DNA from the gene pool.
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Postby bad hammy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:18 pm

It is interesting that in my google news search on this woman the only brand name media outlet hyping this story is . . . . . Fox.

Was also told by a doctor who knows this stuff (dystonia) first hand that from his perspective this is a total fraud, or at least not dystonia.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:32 pm

Pego wrote:
Gordon18 wrote:Well i think more parents will be against swine flu shots after this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM


Since this is a public forum that might not protect me from legal troubles, I am not commenting.


Please tell me this is a crock. That is what I would guess, after seeing her jogging and walking backwards gait, plus her speech improving while jogging.
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:38 pm

All I am going to say is that I have never seen organic dystonia behaving in this manner.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:19 pm

But her trial lawyer no doubt has! Also his hired-gun, can't-earn-a-living-practicing-real-medicine expert witnesses.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:23 pm

Her spastic movements look pretty much volitional to me.

Maybe she and Daddy Balloon Boy can get a two-for one deal on a defense attorney once she is exposed.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:25 pm

You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!
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Postby Daisy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:26 pm

DrJay wrote:Her spastic movements look pretty much volitional to me.

A miraculous recovery around the corner?
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:49 pm

DrJay wrote:You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!


Do you actually practice medicine? Or do you simply play a doctor on message boards? Do you really think you can diagnose this woman from your laptop?
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Postby rasb » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:51 pm

Not very difficult to diagnose, with or without an MD. What a joke !
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:58 pm

rasb wrote:Not very difficult to diagnose, with or without an MD. What a joke !


Listen, I am not saying a flu shot is causing this woman's condition. I am not certain her condition is genuine. But you are manifesting ignorance with your above comment.
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Postby Marlow » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:04 pm

2 cents wrote:But you are manifesting ignorance with your above comment.

Is that a lot like being a delusional lunatic that insists he sees things that aren't actually there?
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:05 pm

2 cents wrote:
DrJay wrote:You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!


Do you actually practice medicine? Or do you simply play a doctor on message boards? Do you really think you can diagnose this woman from your laptop?


I have studied and practiced the craft of neurology including movement disorder in excess of 40 years. I think, I can offer a pretty decent guess.
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:07 pm

Well, guess away, Pego, guess away....I guess this is multiple choice...
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Postby Pego » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:11 pm

2 cents wrote:Well, guess away, Pego, guess away....I guess this is multiple choice...


Precisely. Three options in differential diagnosis. Organic dystonia is not among them.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:14 pm

2 cents wrote:
DrJay wrote:You know who she looks like.....Joe Cocker on stage!


Do you actually practice medicine? Or do you simply play a doctor on message boards? Do you really think you can diagnose this woman from your laptop?


I'm a general internist, in real life. I am not a neurologist--pego is, read his brief comments--but I've seen enough neurologic illness in my 18 years since completing my residency to view that video with a whopping big dose of skepticism. I don't think it is possible to have those movements as an involuntary part of a neurologic illness (as opposed to a psychiatric illness, such as a conversion disorder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder)

yet have very close to normal motor function simply by changing to a trot or backwards walking. Like I said, her movements look volitional to me. If she came to me as a patient, I would send her to a good neurologist. I suspect he/she would say this is not any form of dystonia, or any other neurologic disease.
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Postby 2 cents » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:17 pm

If you suspect she may have a psychiatric disorder, or a psychogenic disorder, would that be a good reason to mock her?
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:24 pm

I've seen patients who claimed one entire side of their body was numb, from crown of the head to tips of the toes, right up to their midline, with absolutely no other neurologic symptoms whatsoever....not possible, there is no neurologic lesion that can do that. A friend who worked for the Public Health Service in the hills of eastern Kentucky had a few patients come in, proclaiming in a preacherly sort of dramatic voice, "Doctah! Doctah! Ahm BLAHND! Ah kint SEE! Jesus strook me BLAHND!" and they could see, they had no illness making them blind. We can't always find a precise explanation for some symptoms, but we can often say "X" is definitely NOT due to "Y" and I'm pretty sure this lady's movements are not due to a neurologic movement disorder. Again, I'll defer to a neurologist.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:35 pm

2 cents wrote:If you suspect she may have a psychiatric disorder, or a psychogenic disorder, would that be a good reason to mock her?


Point well taken. It may not be fair, but in the world of publicity-seeking balloon boy fathers and ambulance-chasing lawyers, it's hard for me not to look at this in a negative way. She didn't come in to my office seeking help, she came via youtube and Channel 16, with a claim that the flu shot "did this" to her. One would hope Channel 16 would have a physician-consultant they would check with before airing such a story. But no. This is precisely the sort of mindset that leads to multi-billion dollar settlements between Dow Corning and women who claim their silicone breast implants caused their rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus, or fibromyalgia, even though such a connection has been proven in valid scientific studies NOT to exist. Why do we ignore rational science in this country, in favor of sound bites, snake oil, and hysteria?
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Postby rasb » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:39 pm

2 cents wrote:
rasb wrote:Not very difficult to diagnose, with or without an MD. What a joke !


Listen, I am not saying a flu shot is causing this woman's condition. I am not certain her condition is genuine. But you are manifesting ignorance with your above comment.


Really ? How incredibly clever of you, to notice my ignorance... We are blessed by your genius, and I, for one, can't wait to get your 3 cents worth.
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