Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?


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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:51 pm

I don't see how his height is relevant to the fact that very, very few sprinters in the history of the sport failed to improve on the college PR's once they became pros. Add to this the fact that Holliday was splitting his time with football and it doesn't seem plausible that he peaked out while at LSU.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:09 pm

If a guy who was 6-foot-6 jumped 7-2 in college and his 5-foot-10 teammate did also, which one do you think would have the better PR 4 years down the road? And no, that's not apples & oranges.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:16 pm

1) I think it is somewhat an apples and orange argument, since center of gravity is a big factor in high jumping, but not in sprinting.

2) Even with the example of high jumping, you don't seem to be implying that the shorter guy's PR won't improve after college, so why do you think a short sprinter's PR won't improve after college. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing whether or not taller athletes have more post-collegiate upside. A while back I remember glancing over some stats which showed that quite a number of 400 runners never improved of their college PR's but that wasn't the case for the 100, in which practically everyone improved on their college PR's. For example, Mike Rodgers, a pretty short guy, went from 10.10 to 9.85, and Michael Frater went from 10.06 to 9.88. Why do you think Holliday would be immune to this phenomenon?
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby bambam » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:37 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:10.00>10.06
:wink:


That is right 10.00 is greater, i.e., slower, than 10.06. Those two are not even in the same league, much less is Holliday's mark superior.

I figured a wisenheimer mathematician might say this so let me be precise in my language.

A 10.00 FAT performance is superior to a 10.06 FAT performance. :mrgreen:


Not one on modern tracks when compared to Hayes running on red clay cinders, that were muddy from the rain, and all chewed up in lane 1 from the 20K walk that had taken place earlier that day. They're not remotely comparable.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby preston » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:13 pm

So let me get this straight...Hayes was a 9.5x/9.6x guy? Then what would the rest of the '64 finalists be? I mean they all ran on the same track in the same conditions (though we're to believe that lane 1 was sooooo chewed up... :roll: )

1 Bob Hayes United States 10.0 seconds ≈ 9.5x/9.6x
2 Enrique Figuerola Cuba 10.2 seconds ≈ 9.7x/9.8x
3 Harry Jerome Canada 10.2 seconds ≈ 9.7x/9.8x
4 Wiesław Maniak Poland 10.4 seconds ≈ 9.9x/10.0x
5 Heinz Schumann Germany 10.4 seconds ≈ 9.9x/10.0x
6 Gaoussou Kone Côte d'Ivoire 10.4 seconds ≈ 9.9x/10.0x
7 Mel Pender United States 10.4 seconds ≈ 9.9x/10.0x
8 Tom Robinson Bahamas 10.5 seconds ≈ 10.0x/10.1x

Maniak and Schumann were the first sub-10 Europeans?
Harry Jerome faster than Bailey and Surin?
Figuerola potentially faster than Asafa Powell?
Kone the first African sub-10?

I will concede that Hayes was great but we have to stop trying to compare out of era.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:54 pm

bambam wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:10.00>10.06
:wink:


That is right 10.00 is greater, i.e., slower, than 10.06. Those two are not even in the same league, much less is Holliday's mark superior.

I figured a wisenheimer mathematician might say this so let me be precise in my language.

A 10.00 FAT performance is superior to a 10.06 FAT performance. :mrgreen:


Not one on modern tracks when compared to Hayes running on red clay cinders, that were muddy from the rain, and all chewed up in lane 1 from the 20K walk that had taken place earlier that day. They're not remotely comparable.

I guess I didn't use enough emoticons and small type to get my point across. :(
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby bambam » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:34 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I guess I didn't use enough emoticons and small type to get my point across. :(


Yeah, I didn't see your fine print until you referred to it in a later post.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:09 am

jazzcyclist wrote:1) I think it is somewhat an apples and orange argument, since center of gravity is a big factor in high jumping, but not in sprinting.

2) Even with the example of high jumping, you don't seem to be implying that the shorter guy's PR won't improve after college, so why do you think a short sprinter's PR won't improve after college. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing whether or not taller athletes have more post-collegiate upside. A while back I remember glancing over some stats which showed that quite a number of 400 runners never improved of their college PR's but that wasn't the case for the 100, in which practically everyone improved on their college PR's. For example, Mike Rodgers, a pretty short guy, went from 10.10 to 9.85, and Michael Frater went from 10.06 to 9.88. Why do you think Holliday would be immune to this phenomenon?


Rodgers is almost 4 inches (10cm) taller than Holliday. They're not remotely in the same physical boat. And Frater is in between them. But even if you find somebody Holliday's size who is that fast, doesn't change my position. There's always an outlier, but there aren't many, and logic says there's no reason to expect Holliday to be one.

My take would be that there's two ways to run 10-flat (to pull a round number out of the air, that also happens to be Holliday's PR): short guys with incredible turnover who lead at halfway, and tall long-legged guys who are slow out of the blocks but in the second half can maintain speed with their huge stride.

Some tall guys (see Bolt, Usain) can master quick starts and get faster than 10-flat. Short guys can't find a way to make their legs longer at the end of the race.

That's a very simplified picture of what I'm trying to convey.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby preston » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:56 am

jazz, I'm gonna have to go with gh. I see your point, but your stretching it. Frater has run 9.88 once and took quite a few years to get there. He's mostly a 10.x sprinter with some sub-10 exceptions. If I had to pick that "short sprinter" to use as a case it would be Andre Cason and he was basically like Frater - but better. And aside from his windy 9.8x he was a 10.0x guy with the occasional sub-10 (Frater might have more subs than Cason...).
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:29 am

preston wrote:jazz, I'm gonna have to go with gh. I see your point, but your stretching it. Frater has run 9.88 once and took quite a few years to get there. He's mostly a 10.x sprinter with some sub-10 exceptions. If I had to pick that "short sprinter" to use as a case it would be Andre Cason and he was basically like Frater - but better. And aside from his windy 9.8x he was a 10.0x guy with the occasional sub-10 (Frater might have more subs than Cason...).

Bolt has only run 9.59 once so what's your point? PR's are by definition outliers. Trindon's 10.00 was not an outlier. He has multiple 10.00's and 10.01's on his resume as well as a 10.02. In the 2009 NCAA final, he had a horrific reaction time and got left in the blocks, but due to his much improved top-end, which was lacking in previous years, he was able to walk down the field, and in the last 15 metes it looked like the rest of the field was going backwards. His unrounded time was 9.991s and had he had a normal reaction time, he likely would have run an official 9.98.

I fully understand what gh is saying about shorter sprinters being physiologically suited for better starts and taller sprinters being physiologically suited for better finishes, and that shorter sprinters rely on faster turnover while taller sprinter rely on longer stride length. Hell, everyone on this board knows those things. But what I categorically reject is gh's theory that had Holliday chosen pro track over pro football, he would have been physiologically incapable of improving on his college PR over the next three to four years as a full-time track guy because he was one or two inches shorter than guys who did improve on their college times. Just the fact that he ran multiple 10.00's in his second to last meet, one with only 0.3 m/s tailwind tells me that he had to have a little upside left. What is it about 5'5" that's So different than 5'6" or 5'7"? By the way, I seriously doubt that 5'9" is Rodger's real height.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:40 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I fully understand what gh is saying about shorter sprinters being physiologically suited for better starts and taller sprinters being physiologically suited for better finishes, and that shorter sprinters rely on faster turnover while taller sprinter rely on longer stride frequency. Hell, everyone on this board knows those things.

You meant to say 'length', not frequency. I disagree with the notion that longer-legged sprinters automatically have a longer stride length. Stride length is as much correlated to leg strength as leg length (it rhymes!). A shorter stronger leg frequently has a longer stride than a longer, (relatively) weaker leg. Also factored in there is total body weight. A short, very strong, lighter sprinter can run plenty fast! Plus . . . taller, 'skinnier' sprinters sometimes can NOT pack on the muscle necessary to optimize their stride length. I was born with relatively strong (but slim) legs that served me well in running and jumping, but when we got in the weight room in college, I found out that virtually everyone else could achieve much greater strength gains than I.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:39 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I fully understand what gh is saying about shorter sprinters being physiologically suited for better starts and taller sprinters being physiologically suited for better finishes, and that shorter sprinters rely on faster turnover while taller sprinter rely on longer stride frequency. Hell, everyone on this board knows those things.

You meant to say 'length', not frequency.

Oops! :oops:
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:07 pm

The fastest man in the history of football (FMHF) scored another touchdown today, this time on a 76-yard punt return.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Marlow » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:52 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:The fastest man in the history of football (FMHF) scored another touchdown today, this time on a 76-yard punt return.

Nice! Speed kills.

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/v ... fb4c64c689
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Blues » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:25 am

jazzcyclist wrote:The fastest man in the history of football (FMHF) scored another touchdown today, this time on a 76-yard punt return.


Nice return, but there are some who feel that maybe the TD shouldn't have counted and that Carolina deserved the ball on the 20 since Trindon may have been a split second premature in giving up the ball...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutd ... --nfl.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 14241.html
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:57 pm

Not sure if you are kidding. He drops the ball after taking several steps in the end zone (near the back). It is a TD as soon as it crosses the line, no feet or any part of his body need be in the end zone.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:28 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:...
I fully understand what gh is saying about shorter sprinters being physiologically suited for better starts and taller sprinters being physiologically suited for better finishes, and that shorter sprinters rely on faster turnover while taller sprinter rely on longer stride length. Hell, everyone on this board knows those things. But what I categorically reject is gh's theory that had Holliday chosen pro track over pro football, he would have been physiologically incapable of improving on his college PR over the next three to four years ....


I never said Holliday was "physiologically incapable" or anything like it! After you originally posited that he might have improved up to 0.20 had he stuck with track I said, simply, "at his height, I'm guessing not."

I then went on to say (in a nutshell) that it's far easier for a tall guy to improve the first half of his race than it is for a short guy to improve the second half of his. That's all.

History is littered with short guys (and guyettes) who simply couldn't cope in the second half of the race. So the empirical evidence suggested (and still suggests) to me that neither Holliday nor any other guy of his height (whether he goes to LSU or not) is likely to be running 9.80 any time soon.

Interesting stat that's cheating to throw out, but note that Holliday was 23 when he got his PR. So was Usain Bolt, and he has had 3 seasons since and has not improved his PR. Maybe he'll never get any faster either!

ps--as a board-certified member of the short-legged-guys brigade, there's nothing I'd like better than for a guy with a 29-inch inseam to run 9.80.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:30 pm

gh wrote:History is littered with short guys (and guyettes) who simply couldn't cope in the second half of the race.


Jeter is not all that tall, and she stands about SAFP, who won in part because she could hold off Jeter's finish when Jeter got a decent start. Since those two have 10.6 and 10.7-low times that would be relatively in the Tyson Gay ballpark, it might not be so important for women (and Ashford was not particularly tall either, was she?
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:14 pm

The top 5 women in the 2011 World Rankings, height in meters:

1. Jeter 1.63
2. VCB 1.63
3. Baptiste 1.60
4. SAFP 1.60

so actually, Jeter is tall! :mrgreen:

ps—the poster girl for short sprinters is Nelli Cooman at 1.58. Twice the world indoor 60 champ, but only made the 100 World Rankings once, and that at #10.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby BruceFlorman » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:24 am

26mi235 wrote:Not sure if you are kidding. He drops the ball after taking several steps in the end zone (near the back). It is a TD as soon as it crosses the line, no feet or any part of his body need be in the end zone.
Check out the video replay here:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000094174/article/nfl-trindon-holliday-td-for-denver-broncos-a-mistake
Especially note the last 5 seconds or so. It's pretty clear.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:31 am

gh wrote:I never said Holliday was "physiologically incapable" or anything like it! After you originally posited that he might have improved up to 0.20 had he stuck with track I said, simply, "at his height, I'm guessing not."

Let's be precise with our language. Here were my exact words:
the history of college sprinters suggests that Holliday would have eventually knocked another 0.10s to 0.20s off his college PR had he had chosen pro track over pro football

Translation: He would have likely lowered his PR to between 9.80 and 9.90 (similar to other sprinters who were one to two inches taller than him).

gh wrote:I then went on to say (in a nutshell) that it's far easier for a tall guy to improve the first half of his race than it is for a short guy to improve the second half of his. That's all.

History is littered with short guys (and guyettes) who simply couldn't cope in the second half of the race. So the empirical evidence suggested (and still suggests) to me that neither Holliday nor any other guy of his height (whether he goes to LSU or not) is likely to be running 9.80 any time soon.

Interesting stat that's cheating to throw out, but note that Holliday was 23 when he got his PR. So was Usain Bolt, and he has had 3 seasons since and has not improved his PR. Maybe he'll never get any faster either!

ps--as a board-certified member of the short-legged-guys brigade, there's nothing I'd like better than for a guy with a 29-inch inseam to run 9.80.

You've made some good points, but here are some other things to remember about Holliday.

1) He was 23 when he ran multiple 10.00's and 10.01's but he ran 10.02 at age 21.

2) Unlike Bolt, as well as Rodgers, Frater and other relatively short sprinters who improved their PR's after college, Holliday has never been a full-time track guy.

3) The history of the sport shows that when a sprinter or hurdler is running consistently fast times close to his/her PR, they're usually due for a big PR improvement when they catch that perfect race in which the conditions are ideal (eg. wind, temperature and humidity) as well as the stars being aligned just right. A classic example of this was Aries Merritt this past summer:

    12.93
    12.93
    12.93
    12.92
    12.95
    12.97
    12.80 BOOM

In Holliday's last three races as a collegian, he ran 10.01, 10.00 and 10.00. What might he have done had he headed to Europe that summer and ran on the circuit? Is it that hard to believe he would have run low 9.9's when the conditions were perfect and the stars were lined up right?
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:36 am

gh wrote:The top 5 women in the 2011 World Rankings, height in meters:

1. Jeter 1.63
2. VCB 1.63
3. Baptiste 1.60
4. SAFP 1.60

so actually, Jeter is tall! :mrgreen:

ps—the poster girl for short sprinters is Nelli Cooman at 1.58. Twice the world indoor 60 champ, but only made the 100 World Rankings once, and that at #10.

I presume you've seen all of these women up close, including SAFP. When I stood next to her, I was shocked at how tiny she was. I doubt that she's 5'3". For the most part I agree with you on the limitations of short sprinters. It's hard for me to imagine someone Trindon Holliday's height running sub-9.8. However, several years ago I began to reassess my previously held assumptions. First, it was when Lauryn Wiliams burst onto the scene, and proved that she could hold her own outdoors with women 6 to 8 inches taller than her. Then SAFP came along and ran 10.70. Prior to her doing it, did you think someone as short as SAFP was capable of running 10.70? Also, if these previously held theories have been disproved with regards to women, shouldn't similar logic apply to the men?
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:01 am

jazzcyclist wrote:....
3) The history of the sport shows that when a sprinter or hurdler is running consistently fast times close to his/her PR, they're usually due for a big PR improvement when they catch that perfect race in which the conditions are ideal (eg. wind, temperature and humidity) as well as the stars being aligned just right. A classic example of this was Aries Merritt this past summer:

    12.93
    12.93
    12.93
    12.92
    12.95
    12.97
    12.80 BOOM
...


sorry, don't think hurdlers are a proper part of the equation here. There's that little thing called technique for hurdlers.

Merritt has been quoted as saying that his switch from 8-step to 7-step approach last winter "just kept getting better all season."
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Marlow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:17 am

gh wrote:his switch from 8-step to 7-step approach last winter "just kept getting better all season."


Aye, the difference is he hadn't quite figured out how best to get to that first hurdle using the 7SA. In the 12.80 he 'nailed' it. I expect him to dabble in the 12.8s a lot more next season, even if he never gets a 12.7, which he may well not. As noted above, for that to happen, the stars must align properly also. For a sprinter to improve, he primarily has to get stronger, so his push-off (stride length) improves. The turn-over will only marginally improve as he adapts his system to a faster cadence.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:10 pm

What other hurdlers besides Merritt use seven steps?
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Marlow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:56 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:What other hurdlers besides Merritt use seven steps?

The elite: Robles, Oliver, and Liu (among only a few others, like Dwight Thomas).
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby eroszag » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:42 am

Another solid day in the office ...2 returns, 46 average, longest a 50 yarder
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby 18.99s » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:15 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I presume you've seen all of these women up close, including SAFP. When I stood next to her, I was shocked at how tiny she was. I doubt that she's 5'3". For the most part I agree with you on the limitations of short sprinters. It's hard for me to imagine someone Trindon Holliday's height running sub-9.8. However, several years ago I began to reassess my previously held assumptions. First, it was when Lauryn Wiliams burst onto the scene, and proved that she could hold her own outdoors with women 6 to 8 inches taller than her. Then SAFP came along and ran 10.70. Prior to her doing it, did you think someone as short as SAFP was capable of running 10.70? Also, if these previously held theories have been disproved with regards to women, shouldn't similar logic apply to the men?


When talking about short vs. tall you have to look at each sex separately. 5'3" for a woman is just one inch below average for their sex. 1 inch below average for a man would be 5'9", that's Maurice Greene's height.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Blues » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:The top 5 women in the 2011 World Rankings, height in meters:

1. Jeter 1.63
2. VCB 1.63
3. Baptiste 1.60
4. SAFP 1.60

so actually, Jeter is tall! :mrgreen:

ps—the poster girl for short sprinters is Nelli Cooman at 1.58. Twice the world indoor 60 champ, but only made the 100 World Rankings once, and that at #10.

I presume you've seen all of these women up close, including SAFP. When I stood next to her, I was shocked at how tiny she was. I doubt that she's 5'3".


I'd imagine gh HAS seen all these women up close, but I also think it's safe to say that SAFP is considerably more than 0.03m shorter than Jeter and VCB.

Based on any picture of the 3 athletes together that I've seen, the disparity in height is noticeably more than .03 meters, which is 1.18 inches. The London Olympics athlete bio page lists SAFP's height as 1.52 meters, or 5 feet even, unlike the JamaicaOlympic site that seems to have used the basketball method of listing height, adding a few inches and listing her as 1.60m, or 5'3", evidently hoping she'd get drafted by an NBA team.. :wink: 1.52m (5'0") seems to match the photo evidence a lot better, and means a really short sprinter really IS the fastest in the world..

Photos 42, 43, & 44 in the link below give an idea of the height differential of the ladies.

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Shelly-Ann ... HgBVSF6qfH
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:16 pm

Based on what 18.99 and Blues have posted above, the heights of SAFP and Holliday are about the same percentile relative to their respective sexes.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:16 pm

Today, Holliday became the first man to ever return both a kickoff and a punt for a touchdown in an NFL playoff game.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/20 ... a/1829261/

Geaux Trindon!
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:39 pm

can he outrun Kaepernick? :mrgreen:
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:43 am

gh wrote:can he outrun Kaepernick? :mrgreen:

He seems to be about the same size of Ryan Bailey, so who knows?

What's ironic is that the latest trend in the NFL seems to be adopting college offenses (eg. Washington, San Francisco, Seattle), while with the exception of Oregon, the college teams that have been the most successful in recent years have all run pro offenses (eg. Alabama, LSU, Stanford, Notre Dame).
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby gh » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:24 am

Kaepernick reminds me of nothing so much as an Ashton Eaton who can throw. (and boy, can he!)
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:31 am

gh wrote:Kaepernick reminds me of nothing so much as an Ashton Eaton who can throw. (and boy, can he!)


Yea, that is right. Watching him on that 56 yard TD I was thinking he looked like a World class 400 runner. What a stride with those long shanks.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby scottmitchell74 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:23 am

Conor Dary wrote:
gh wrote:Kaepernick reminds me of nothing so much as an Ashton Eaton who can throw. (and boy, can he!)


Yea, that is right. Watching him on that 56 yard TD I was thinking he looked like a World class 400 runner. What a stride with those long shanks.


:shock: :shock: I was watching Sportcenter with the fellas at the fire station this morning and I said that exact thing to them, nearly verbatim, except I said "He's 6'6" instead of referencing his shanks specifically. :)
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