A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
For those thinking this is around the corner, the experiments that have occurred to date have had to be canceled when one of the subjects died. This type of thing will be a bit risky, as well as likely being illegal. The talented guys will likely not want to take a chance doing this stuff and losing their license and funding. These guys make a lot of money and it will NOT be a big incentive to cheat here. It is my impression (Daisy?) that the gene stuff will be easier to do when it is putting in the thing that is supposed to be there rather than altering something that is right so that it will be 'better'.
26mi235 wrote:It is my impression that the gene stuff will be easier to do when it is putting in the thing that is supposed to be there rather than altering something that is right so that it will be 'better'.
Exactly, it is hard to overide the bodies homeostatic control mechanisms and when we do we often end up with undesirable (and unpredicatable) outcomes. These gene replacement technologies are usually developed with the goal of repairing natural problems (mutations) that are pushing the system into a disease state. Cystic fibrosis is probably the best example. If a functional cystic fibrosis gene can be incorporated into cells that need its function it pushes the cells back to a normal situation. In contrast athlete who want to use gene doping are looking to push their body and cells away from a normal state.
An example of pushing cells away from a normal state is seen with telomeres (the DNA sequence at the ends of chromosomes) and the hopes of manipulating their length to increase longevity. Every time a cell divides the teleomeres get shorter and it has been observed that people who age prematurely have shorter telomeres. Heart disease and other aging related diseases are also related to shorter telomeres. Logic dictates that keeping them longer will improve our condition with respect to aging.
There is an enzyme called telomerase that can increase the length of telomeres. In fact, this is important for producing sperm and eggs that have longer telomeres. If this enzyme did not exist our chromosomes would get smaller each generation leading to our extinction as a species. Some saw telomerase as having a fountain of youth potential but when it is over expressed, thus giving us longer telomeres and combating the aging process, it also was found to cause cancer.
Daisy wrote:Some saw telomerase as having a fountain of youth potential but when it is over expressed, thus giving us longer telomeres and combating the aging process, it also was found to cause cancer.
Details, details, details. Known cycle of cutting-edge medicine.
1. Invent cool new therapy that 'fixes' something.
2. Find that #1 causes side effects just as bad or worse that original ailment.
3. Invent cool new thing that fixes side effect.
4. Repeat #2.
5. Repeat #3
6. repeat ad infinitum
Added benefit: each new step increases medical industry revenue.
Marlow wrote:1. Invent cool new therapy that 'fixes' something. 2. Find that #1 causes side effects just as bad or worse that original ailment. 3. Invent cool new thing that fixes side effect. 4. Repeat #2. 5. Repeat #3 6. repeat ad infinitum
Sounds like a Heath Robinson approach to medicine.
Marlow wrote:1. Invent cool new therapy that 'fixes' something. 2. Find that #1 causes side effects just as bad or worse that original ailment. 3. Invent cool new thing that fixes side effect. 4. Repeat #2. 5. Repeat #3 6. repeat ad infinitum
Sounds like a Heath Robinson approach to medicine.
Marlow, this whole thing reminds me of sci-fi movies, where people continue to function inside an active volcanos, cars running over flowing lava, light sabers, Bond having a car that just becomes completely invisible etc.
While being fun to watch and talk about, it is impossible to achieve.
Marlow wrote:If gene-doping is so sci-fi why is WADA spending time and effort in ways to detect it.
WADA's ignorance (or bluster) and easy money for the experts. WADA's throwing around $8 million a year and the experts get lots of publicity too. You think they are going to turn it down or tell WADA to spend it on something else?
Based on my understanding of the human animal, its deceit, greed, and imagination, I'm going on record that we WILL have a proven case of successful athletic genetic engineering in the next 15 years. Apropos of nothing, there will also be a successful human clone created in the same time frame, ethics laws notwithstanding.
Marlow wrote:Based on my understanding of the human animal, its deceit, greed, and imagination, I'm going on record that we WILL have a proven case of successful athletic genetic engineering in the next 15 years.
If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt that you are, then someone should be doing something about it now. WADA is probably the only organization in the world that is in a position to at least try. I wouldn't discourage them.
Marlow wrote:Based on my understanding of the human animal, its deceit, greed, and imagination, I'm going on record that we WILL have a proven case of successful athletic genetic engineering in the next 15 years.
If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt that you are, then someone should be doing something about it now. WADA is probably the only organization in the world that is in a position to at least try. I wouldn't discourage them.
Yes, but I'm just a silly paranoid layman. The scientists and doctors among us say it ain't gonna happen . . . ever.
Marlow wrote:Genetic manipulation IS going to happen (it's already started on a rudimentary level), and yes, there's going to be mistakes along the way, but sooner or later (my WAG is in 25 years) medicine will begin 'curing' people by manipulating their genes, not just dosing them with meds. When that happens, athletes will be right there in line for 'treatment'. It is inevitable.
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat? "Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand
With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat? "Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand
With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat? "Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand
With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.
Yup!
The learning curve on genetic manipulation is on the steepest rise it's ever been. It is so unreasonable to project a mere 500, 1000, 2000 years in the future and see where we'll be then? Are we not almost now at the point when science can change the body's physiology? Extrapolate!
Marlow wrote:The learning curve on genetic manipulation is on the steepest rise it's ever been. It is so unreasonable to project a mere 500, 1000, 2000 years in the future and see where we'll be then? Are we not almost now at the point when science can change the body's physiology? Extrapolate!
Yes, but if I also extrapolate the political and economic developments of the last decade, I can as easily envision a barren planet devoid of human life, or one in which life resembles what it was in the Dark Ages, as I can a guy running the 100 in 5 seconds.
Marlow wrote:The learning curve on genetic manipulation is on the steepest rise it's ever been. It is so unreasonable to project a mere 500, 1000, 2000 years in the future and see where we'll be then? Are we not almost now at the point when science can change the body's physiology? Extrapolate!
Yes, but if I also extrapolate the political and economic developments of the last decade, I can as easily envision a barren planet devoid of human life, or one in which life resembles what it was in the Dark Ages, as I can a guy running the 100 in 5 seconds.
Indeed, and in a parallel universe that WILL happen! [see multiverse discussion]
Friend Marlow, I suspect that if you introduce into your spiel the notion that man will run 100m in 5 seconds, you will instantly lose credibiity.. stick to the nano-babble.
lonewolf wrote:Friend Marlow, I suspect that if you introduce into your spiel the notion that man will run 100m in 5 seconds, you will instantly lose credibiity.. stick to the nano-babble.
Are they not part and parcel of the same Brave New World of mine? An Emily Dickinson poem is apropos here:
Much Madness is divinest Sense - To a discerning Eye - Much Sense - the starkest Madness - ’Tis the Majority In this, as all, prevail - Assent - and you are sane - Demur - you’re straightway dangerous - And handled with a Chain -
lonewolf wrote:Friend Marlow, I suspect that if you introduce into your spiel the notion that man will run 100m in 5 seconds, you will instantly lose credibiity.. stick to the nano-babble.
Are they not part and parcel of the same Brave New World of mine? An Emily Dickinson poem is apropos here:
Much Madness is divinest Sense - To a discerning Eye - Much Sense - the starkest Madness - ’Tis the Majority In this, as all, prevail - Assent - and you are sane - Demur - you’re straightway dangerous - And handled with a Chain -
You are lucky. Lonewolf, tandfman and I still love you.
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat? "Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand
With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.
But it's great publicity for his research. It seems that no one gets burned for ludicrous comments anymore.
Nevermind all this hypothetical 5 second 100m crap. From the LA Times today:
Researchers in Japan say they used mouse stem cells to create eggs and sperm, producing healthy offspring.
HOLY BUCKETS... this is legit Brave New World stuff. We are just a generation or two away from producing hybridized sprinters who really can run 5 second 100 meters. That is, barring the economic and social collapse of the civilized world which seems ever more imminent.
Anthony Treacher wrote:Sorry. Too much trouble these days.
And so imprecise. Millions of swimmers, trying to get to the prize, creating millions of permutations in offspring. It's so much easier to just manipulate the chromosomes into exactly what you want!
Marlow wrote:It's so much easier to just manipulate the chromosomes into exactly what you want!
I think you mean it's more efficient to genotype the embryos and only implant the ones you want. And we are at that point right now except we don't know the consequences of all the polymorphisms, just the major ones. So you probably won't get what you hope for with respect to your goal of a super athlete. But at least your child won't have cystic fibrosis and you'll know the sex.
lonewolf wrote:How do you identify the "super sperm"?..and the "super egg"?
That is the question. Although, you'd actually be genotyping the zygote, the result of fertilization.
Nobody knows the combination of genetic alleles that are THE ones you want.
Pego wrote:
Daisy wrote:at least your child won't have cystic fibrosis
Perhaps.
Right, no guarantees with the epigenetic landscape complicating the genotype to phenotype equation. And there could always be denovo mutations not identified in the original genotyping.
And who knows what having the embryo manipulated in a petri dish could do? I guess the IVF babies are turing out to be 'normal'?
Last edited by Daisy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
lonewolf wrote:So far, I have (recently) flunked toe dragging, space, super colliders and fertilization.. what else ya got?
How can fossil sea shells exist in the mountains?
Actually, I do have a real question that I think you might have thought about. How do the magnetic poles switch and what are the consequences of this when it happens? If any?
