Bonds Indicted [guilty on 1/4] [wrist whacked!]


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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:57 am

In the non-Webb, non-Gabe category, that is.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:09 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?


Is there? Are there documents that showed WHEN they used, not just flunked tests and testimony confrming THAT they used? If so, then of course.

ANYONE who has a documented record of when they were using PED's should have all stats redacted from the record books during that time. At least in the case of Bonds, we know there is in the BALCO records that timeline.

You're forgetting that Giambi's name is part of those same BALCO records. Furthermore, when Ben Johnson tested positive for steroids in 1988, the IAAF expunged his 1987 performances from the books also, though he didn't flunk a test in 1987. Tim Montgomery's 9.78 was expunged despite the fact that he passed the drug tests on the day he ran 9.78. Shouldn't the same thing happen to Palmeiro?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:14 am

jazzcyclist wrote:You're forgetting that Giambi's name is part of those same BALCO records. Furthermore, when Ben Johnson tested positive for steroids in 1988, the IAAF expunged his 1987 performances from the books also, though he didn't flunk a test in 1987. Tim Montgomery's 9.78 was expunged despite the fact that he passed the drug tests on the day he ran 9.78. Shouldn't the same thing happen to Palmeiro?


I already answered that question. We have no argument on that point.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:24 am

guru wrote: We have no argument on that point.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating selective expunging of only Bonds' performances.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote: We have no argument on that point.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating selective expunging of only Bonds' performances.


Bonds gets the attention in this regard because he broke a record. A BIG ONE. It's easy for guys like Giambi and their drug-enhanced stats to be ignored because they didn't.

Trust me, put McGwire in Bonds' position, with Bonds' personality(an aspect of this not to be ignored) and we would be having the same discussion.
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BB Shots

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:42 am

jazzcyclist wrote:

"...The rest of the stuff that you mention, like trainers, taxes and single season vs career is irrelevant..."

Well, guru thinks the career homer mark, and even personality matter.

BCB
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Re: BB Shots

Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:47 am

bijanc wrote:Well, guru thinks the career homer mark, and even personality matter.


Tell me I'm wrong.
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persona non grata

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:51 am

I'm with you, guru.

BCB
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:29 am

I've never met Barry Bonds, so whenever I hear people talk about what a jerk he is, I wonder if they've met him. Unlike Bobby knight, who has repeatedly demonstrated on TV what a jerk he can be, I've never seen any of these displays from Barry Bonds. Some people may have had firsthand experience with Bonds, but I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.



Lying at every turn is a good start.

Wonder if we'll see Barry do the Marion plea for forgiveness thing?
Last edited by guru on Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:36 am

I have to agree with jazzy here, every time I see Bonds in an interview he seems first of all articulate, secondly mild mannered, a perfect gentleman.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:42 am

Charles Barkley is really fired up about the Bonds indictment. He just threw out the race card on ESPN and called it a witch hunt. and selective prosecution. He also wonders why aren't any known White PED users being prosecuted. As I predicted earlier:
this trial will cause America's racial divide to rear it's ugly head once again
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I've never met Barry Bonds, so whenever I hear people talk about what a jerk he is, I wonder if they've met him. Unlike Bobby knight, who has repeatedly demonstrated on TV what a jerk he can be, I've never seen any of these displays from Barry Bonds. Some people may have had firsthand experience with Bonds, but I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.


I've never actually met Bonds, but did have occasion to spend 5-10 minutes with him standing behind my seat at a hockey game while he berated the poor usher about proper accomodations for him, his wife, his babe in arms and his 350lb bodyguard.

Beyond that,I've talked to a few local sportswriters, and read/heard many more on the radio and the unanimous opinion is that he's one of the biggest assholes ever to walk the planet. The "media hearsay" is an honest reputation--in my considered judgment--that Bonds earned well.

I don't have time to look this up to confirm, but it's my recollection that even when he was of collegiate MVP status at Arizona State, his teammates nonethless voted him off the team (but the coach would have none of it). Can anybody verify that?

(I've had this distaste for Bonds the human for years; didn't stop me from eagerly going to watch him play; the night he hit 71 and 72 was incredible. Even knowing what we know now)
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:48 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.



Lying at every turn is a good start.

What does honesty have to do with personality? Even the most charismatic people can be pathological liars and the biggest assholes can be honest.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:48 am

It is my understanding (not personal knowledge) that Bonds has the reputation that he does because he has earned it from many repeated instances since forever -- this is not a BALCO-era occurrence.

Bonds was also a great player before he became a committed user of what in many sports are PEDs. McGuire was always a really good player - not on the same level and did not have several MVPs that led to him getting contracts with the highest salary in baseball beginning rather far back. I am even unsure of my feelings on Hall of Fame, as I think he would have been in it without the chemical assistance (however, MJ might well have been almost as good, but not as "multi-evented" at OG/WCs).
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:48 am

guru wrote:Lying at every turn is a good start.

Wonder if we'll see Barry do the Marion plea for forgiveness thing?



Using your son as a prop is another and I suspect we won't see Barry on Oprah.
Last edited by MJD on Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:51 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.



Lying at every turn is a good start.

What does honesty have to do with personality? Even the most charismatic people can be pathological liars and the biggest assholes can be honest.


Yeah, until BALCO broke, I never had any thought that Bonds was anything but a most difficult human being to deal with, not any kind of snake.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:57 am

I want to refer everyone back to paulthefan axiom number 1 regarding PEDs... players with the largest contract $$ are most likely in the deepest. This one is based on basic economics.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:01 am

then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:08 am

gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


As in track, it's the second-tier athletes trying to make up for talent shortcomings, and fading stars trying to recapture their luster.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:15 am

gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


Unfortunately several scenarios come to mind.

1 The top players are warned in advance.

2 The top players have more sophisticated routines that are harder to detect.

3 With $100m on the line for a single player, they can fund research into drugs that pass the tests baseball administers.

4 The tests are suppressed

The fourth one is the only one that I have no faith in myself; number three is quite ominous in its implications.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:28 am

26mi235 wrote:1 The top players are warned in advance.

Didn't The New York Times reveal that MLB's drug testers routinely notify the team ahead of time when they are coming to town for testing?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:30 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:1 The top players are warned in advance.

Didn't The New York Times reveal that MLB's drug testers routinely notify the team ahead of time when they are coming to town for testing?


One day.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:1 The top players are warned in advance.

Didn't The New York Times reveal that MLB's drug testers routinely notify the team ahead of time when they are coming to town for testing?


Yes, the tester have to get stadium passes from the team, so the team has to be told in advance. I wonder how many other holes that you can drive a truck through they have in their testing regime. And some people complained about Masback and USATF....
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:38 am

guru wrote:
gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


As in track, it's the second-tier athletes trying to make up for talent shortcomings, and fading stars trying to recapture their luster.


That then, puts the lie to the suggestion that those w/ the biggest contracts are the deepest into drugs.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:47 am

gh wrote:
guru wrote:
gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


As in track, it's the second-tier athletes trying to make up for talent shortcomings, and fading stars trying to recapture their luster.


That then, puts the lie to the suggestion that those w/ the biggest contracts are the deepest into drugs.


Not necessarily, if they're using the drugs to maintain the numbers that result in the contract.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:31 am

gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


that is a no-brainer, because they (the shlubs) can't afford to get the latest and best information on the testing... basic economics. They are always decades behind what the champs know.

On a fair playing field the best are the best. However everything gets transmogrified with big dollars as then the best appear superhuman as they reap a tremendous dividend (call it a millionaires tax break) in PEDs.
Last edited by paulthefan on Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.

Not sure about this. I lived in the Bay Area and i got the impression that his team mates thought he was a jerk too.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:46 am

The Chicago Tribune's Philip Hersh makes an excellent point in defense of Bonds' records:
During the period the indictment suggests Bonds was taking steroids, baseball was not officially testing for them. Until 2002, MLB had no official policy about players using steroids.

When Bonds hit 73 home runs in 2001, one of the years the indictment says he took drugs and allegedly lied about it under oath, MLB had not banned them either de jure or de facto.

There is no evidence, alleged or otherwise, that Bonds had taken steroids in the four seasons (2004 through 2007) the sport officially has tested for them.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/spo ... and-m.html
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:47 am

He's the Sotomayor of baseball . . .

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... 532#405532
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Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:51 am

jazzcyclist wrote:The Chicago Tribune's Philip Hersh makes an excellent point in defense of Bonds' records:

Like it or not he is not been charged with taking steroids.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:56 am

bad hammy wrote:He's the Sotomayor of baseball . . .

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... 532#405532

I didn't know about Soto and Mary Decker. You learn something new everyday. Ty Cobbs and Ted Williams weren't exactly known for being cuddly either.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:58 am

Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:The Chicago Tribune's Philip Hersh makes an excellent point in defense of Bonds' records:

Like it or not he is not been charged with taking steroids.

I'm aware of that. I'm only responding to those who feel that Bonds' records should be expunged.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:07 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
bad hammy wrote:He's the Sotomayor of baseball . . .

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... 532#405532

I didn't know about Soto and Mary Decker. You learn something new everyday. Ty Cobbs and Ted Williams weren't exactly known for being cuddly either.

And having been in the Bay Area for the time that Bonds was a Giant, either the press is pulling the most massive snow job of all time (including doctoring numerous videos) or Bonds is deserving of his reputation as an asshole. I’d say maybe he’s a sweetheart around his family, but most of the available evidence argues against it.
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Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:32 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:The Chicago Tribune's Philip Hersh makes an excellent point in defense of Bonds' records:

Like it or not he is not been charged with taking steroids.

I'm aware of that. I'm only responding to those who feel that Bonds' records should be expunged.

Apologies. Didn't catch that.
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Bonds performance

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:40 pm

a poster wrote: "...Bonds was also a great player before he became a committed user of what in many sports are PEDs. McGuire was always a really good player - not on the same level and did not have several MVPs that led to him getting contracts with the highest salary in baseball beginning rather far back. I am even unsure of my feelings on Hall of Fame, as I think he would have been in it without the chemical assistance (however, MJ might well have been almost as good, but not as "multi-evented" at OG/WCs)..."

Bonds was great prior to the weight gain, but not a 50 or 55 homer player as were Griffey, Jr., A-Rod, and McGwire even before they were 30. He had generally hit about 35 a year before he bulked up (and 49 once), then hit 73. He would not have done that (actually, no one had, not even Mays, Mantle, Foxx, Killebrew, McCovey, Kingman, Jackson, Greenberg or Ruth). Would have made the Hall, wouldn't have threatened or broken Aaron's career mark.

see:

http://www.sports-central.org/sports/20 ... r_best.php

http://mvn.com/outsiderradio/2007/07/23 ... -of-bonds/

http://www.e-sports.com/articles/731/1/ ... Page1.html

http://www.sports-central.org/sports/20 ... er_see.php

Bijan C. Bayne
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Postby mcgato » Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:12 pm

gh wrote:I don't have time to look this up to confirm, but it's my recollection that even when he was of collegiate MVP status at Arizona State, his teammates nonethless voted him off the team (but the coach would have none of it). Can anybody verify that?

I remember reading about that last year or the year before. I think it was an excerpt from a biography on Bonds. Probably posted on ESPN's website.

As I recall the story, on a trip to Hawaii, Barry and two other players missed curfew bed check. The captain handed out punishment to the players (running laps or some such thing). The other two players accepted the punishment, but Barry refused to do anything because the captain was not his boss. The players met with the coach to complain that Barry was ripping the team apart. The coach said that if the players voted to get rid of Barry, he would do so. The players voted, and only two voted to keep him on the team. The coach said that since it was not unanimous, Barry got to stay on the team.
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Re: Bonds performance

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:04 pm

bijanc wrote:a poster wrote: "...Bonds was also a great player before he became a committed user of what in many sports are PEDs. McGuire was always a really good player - not on the same level and did not have several MVPs that led to him getting contracts with the highest salary in baseball beginning rather far back. I am even unsure of my feelings on Hall of Fame, as I think he would have been in it without the chemical assistance (however, MJ might well have been almost as good, but not as "multi-evented" at OG/WCs)..."

Bonds was great prior to the weight gain, but not a 50 or 55 homer player as were Griffey, Jr., A-Rod, and McGwire even before they were 30. He had generally hit about 35 a year before he bulked up (and 49 once), then hit 73. He would not have done that (actually, no one had, not even Mays, Mantle, Foxx, Killebrew, McCovey, Kingman, Jackson, Greenberg or Ruth). Would have made the Hall, wouldn't have threatened or broken Aaron's career mark.

see:

http://www.sports-central.org/sports/20 ... r_best.php

http://mvn.com/outsiderradio/2007/07/23 ... -of-bonds/

http://www.e-sports.com/articles/731/1/ ... Page1.html

http://www.sports-central.org/sports/20 ... er_see.php

Bijan C. Bayne


I completely agree that he would never have made the 700 Club (probably even the religious one :roll: ) much less broken the 754 mark, without PEDs. It just a comment about the two players discussed by someone above. It also expressed my uncertainty on the HoF given that things are tainted; removing anything extra above what he might have done (including stopping at 40 instead of continuing), his record was a HoF one.

I soured on the HR stuff after the McGuire/Sosa contests when the pieces fit together enough to raise big questions about the comparability of the 'playing field'. By the time Bonds was doing the big damage I was not hoping he hit a lot.

Bonds was at the top but saw himself eclipsed by somewhat lessor players and felt the need to exceed, so to speak.
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Postby cullman » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:51 pm

gh wrote:I don't have time to look this up to confirm, but it's my recollection that even when he was of collegiate MVP status at Arizona State, his teammates nonethless voted him off the team (but the coach would have none of it). Can anybody verify that?

I've got nuthin but time and found this article...thanks Google...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... man/060504

cman
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Candy-Armed Barry

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:06 pm

Bonds' MVP, or "Bonds is the G.O.A.T." apologists have contested my columns on a few counts, one interesting one being that he has won eight Gold Gloves. But the ESPN article on his ASU days contains this assertion:

..."There'd be 15 scouts in the stands, and he didn't want them to see that he had no arm."..'

Bonds' Gold Gloves were awarded for playing LF. Manny Ramirez plays left. Frank Howard played in left. Ted Williams played in left. The Reds stuck Pete Rose in left. To argue that Bonds is baseball's greatest ever with "stellar left field play" as a plank in the platform is by definition diminishing- the two thirds of National League outfielders who are charged w/ covering the most ground, and making the most challenging throws, are the RF'ers and the CF'ers. When Bonds teamed w/ Gold Glover Andy Van Slyke in Pittsburgh, it was Van Slyke who was considered a fielding standout.

Griffey (cf) was rated a superior fielder, Griffey was younger, and tabbed by Aaron as most likely to break his record, and Sosa and McGwire captured media attention w/ the assault on Maris' mark. Some sportswriters considered A-Rod the best all-around player. All that had to get to Bonds in the late 1990's.

(red flag- home run production does not spike at age 36)

BCB
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