Bonds Indicted [guilty on 1/4] [wrist whacked!]


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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:04 am

gh wrote:That show is over. There is no rewind button.


I have read some say that that isn't necessarily an accurate statement. You can't rewind BJ's race in 1988 either. Still took it away from him. Look what they are doing to Marion.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:17 am

MJD wrote:
gh wrote:That show is over. There is no rewind button.


I have read some say that that isn't necessarily an accurate statement. You can't rewind BJ's race in 1988 either. Still took it away from him.

Unless someone can prove Bonds was using PED's after MLB instituted its current PED policy, I don't see how he can get the Ben Johnson treatment. Instead, he'll get the Flo-Jo treatment. Furthermore, MLB hasn't expunged the performances of Rafeal Palmeiro and other players who've tested positive since they started testing for PED's. Speaking of Palmeiro, why haven't the G-men indicted him for his perjury before congress? :?
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:20 am

I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:25 am

MJD wrote:
gh wrote:That show is over. There is no rewind button.


I have read some say that that isn't necessarily an accurate statement. You can't rewind BJ's race in 1988 either. Still took it away from him. Look what they are doing to Marion.


Neither of them belonged to a powerful union.
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Why Bonds and not Others?

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:29 am

a poster asked:

"...Speaking of Palmeiro, why haven't the G-men indicted him for his perjury before congress?..."


The federal government, as most of you know, was investigating the Bay Area Lab Cooperative under suspicion of money laundering, and to some extent, illegal drug sale. During the course of the investigation, records of ties to or BACLO purchases by certain athletes surfaced, Bonds among them. Some, like Bonds and Giambi, were offered immunity if they told the grand jury the truth about their relationship with the company. The gov't says Bonds lied to the GJ 19 times. Palmeiro was not subpoenaed.

BCB
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:32 am

MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:36 am

MJD wrote:
tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.

And the fact that you get older, and thus more removed from your own adolescence, with the passing of every year has nothing to do with this perception, right? :)

Some truths are self-evident. Wearing your pants half way down your legs, for example. Has nothing to do with being an old fogie to appreciate the fact that it is just wrong.


I really dont think it is the fact that I am getting older.
There must be alot of people in the country that are completely uneducated and uncultured yet have enough money that there is a significant market to get their attention with assinine content. I dont think I remember this kind of trash on the airwaves in the 60s. It is frightening.... This observations has nothing to do with Barry Bonds who probably feels just as I do.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 am

gh wrote:Neither of them belonged to a powerful union.


I understand what you are saying but I wonder if this kind of situation is actually in their collective agreement(I realize it doesn't matter-just wondering.
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Re: Why Bonds and not Others?

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:40 am

bijanc wrote:a poster asked:

"...Speaking of Palmeiro, why haven't the G-men indicted him for his perjury before congress?..."


The federal government, as most of you know, was investigating the Bay Area Lab Cooperative under suspicion of money laundering, and to some extent, illegal drug sale. During the course of the investigation, records of ties to or BACLO purchases by certain athletes surfaced, Bonds among them. Some, like Bonds and Giambi, were offered immunity if they told the grand jury the truth about their relationship with the company. The gov't says Bonds lied to the GJ 19 times. Palmeiro was not subpoenaed.

BCB

I understand the difference between Bonds and Giambi. It's the same as the difference between Scooter Libby and Richard Armitage. But that still doesn't change the fact that Palmeiro perjured himself on national TV and the Feds are ignoring it, which demonstrates the selective nature of federal prosecutors.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:48 am

guru wrote:...I really think people here are underestimating the good people in the bay area. Lawyers are pretty good at seating impartial juries, and when push comes to shove people in that position take it seriously and follow the evidence, especially in a federal trial.


There are more SF Chron pieces in the sports section (not directly linked on their front page),including one by Ray Ratto that starts:

<<(11-15) 21:06 PST -- Once again, the International Conclusion-Jumping Championships are being held, and once again the topic is our own B. Lamar Bonds. So let's begin. Oh, and tie your shoes.
Item One: "The government must have a very strong case to bother indicting him."
Maybe. And maybe not.
This is not going to be an easy case to make in this town with a jury pool that could include a Giants fan, a libertarian or just an ornery cuss who distrusts the government in general. ....>>
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:48 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:52 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?


Is there? Are there documents that showed WHEN they used, not just flunked tests and testimony confrming THAT they used? If so, then of course.

ANYONE who has a documented record of when they were using PED's should have all stats redacted from the record books during that time. At least in the case of Bonds, we know there is in the BALCO records that timeline.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:52 am

Ratto's conclusion:

<<...And finally, there is one last conclusion not to be jumped. That with Bonds indicted, the Steroid Era is finally behind us, and baseball can dance free and untainted. No, it's in front of us, halogen high-beams right through our corneas, and it's going to stay in front of us for at least as long as it took for the drugs to become a full-blown era.

No player can be presumed to be clean on his say-so or the lack of a positive test administered by those crack scientists working for MLB. The presumption of innocence works in a courtroom but nowhere else in our judgmental society. We conclusion-jump because we have too much time on our hands and too much media to allow for the dead air required to reconfirm baseball's chemical virtue.

In other words, think 30 years, give or take a pennant race.>>
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Stock In Bonds

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:56 am

I predict this thread will generate the second most pages of replies in TNTAF history.

BCB
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:57 am

In the non-Webb, non-Gabe category, that is.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:09 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?


Is there? Are there documents that showed WHEN they used, not just flunked tests and testimony confrming THAT they used? If so, then of course.

ANYONE who has a documented record of when they were using PED's should have all stats redacted from the record books during that time. At least in the case of Bonds, we know there is in the BALCO records that timeline.

You're forgetting that Giambi's name is part of those same BALCO records. Furthermore, when Ben Johnson tested positive for steroids in 1988, the IAAF expunged his 1987 performances from the books also, though he didn't flunk a test in 1987. Tim Montgomery's 9.78 was expunged despite the fact that he passed the drug tests on the day he ran 9.78. Shouldn't the same thing happen to Palmeiro?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:14 am

jazzcyclist wrote:You're forgetting that Giambi's name is part of those same BALCO records. Furthermore, when Ben Johnson tested positive for steroids in 1988, the IAAF expunged his 1987 performances from the books also, though he didn't flunk a test in 1987. Tim Montgomery's 9.78 was expunged despite the fact that he passed the drug tests on the day he ran 9.78. Shouldn't the same thing happen to Palmeiro?


I already answered that question. We have no argument on that point.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:24 am

guru wrote: We have no argument on that point.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating selective expunging of only Bonds' performances.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote: We have no argument on that point.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating selective expunging of only Bonds' performances.


Bonds gets the attention in this regard because he broke a record. A BIG ONE. It's easy for guys like Giambi and their drug-enhanced stats to be ignored because they didn't.

Trust me, put McGwire in Bonds' position, with Bonds' personality(an aspect of this not to be ignored) and we would be having the same discussion.
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BB Shots

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:42 am

jazzcyclist wrote:

"...The rest of the stuff that you mention, like trainers, taxes and single season vs career is irrelevant..."

Well, guru thinks the career homer mark, and even personality matter.

BCB
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Re: BB Shots

Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:47 am

bijanc wrote:Well, guru thinks the career homer mark, and even personality matter.


Tell me I'm wrong.
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persona non grata

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:51 am

I'm with you, guru.

BCB
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:29 am

I've never met Barry Bonds, so whenever I hear people talk about what a jerk he is, I wonder if they've met him. Unlike Bobby knight, who has repeatedly demonstrated on TV what a jerk he can be, I've never seen any of these displays from Barry Bonds. Some people may have had firsthand experience with Bonds, but I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.



Lying at every turn is a good start.

Wonder if we'll see Barry do the Marion plea for forgiveness thing?
Last edited by guru on Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:36 am

I have to agree with jazzy here, every time I see Bonds in an interview he seems first of all articulate, secondly mild mannered, a perfect gentleman.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:42 am

Charles Barkley is really fired up about the Bonds indictment. He just threw out the race card on ESPN and called it a witch hunt. and selective prosecution. He also wonders why aren't any known White PED users being prosecuted. As I predicted earlier:
this trial will cause America's racial divide to rear it's ugly head once again
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I've never met Barry Bonds, so whenever I hear people talk about what a jerk he is, I wonder if they've met him. Unlike Bobby knight, who has repeatedly demonstrated on TV what a jerk he can be, I've never seen any of these displays from Barry Bonds. Some people may have had firsthand experience with Bonds, but I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.


I've never actually met Bonds, but did have occasion to spend 5-10 minutes with him standing behind my seat at a hockey game while he berated the poor usher about proper accomodations for him, his wife, his babe in arms and his 350lb bodyguard.

Beyond that,I've talked to a few local sportswriters, and read/heard many more on the radio and the unanimous opinion is that he's one of the biggest assholes ever to walk the planet. The "media hearsay" is an honest reputation--in my considered judgment--that Bonds earned well.

I don't have time to look this up to confirm, but it's my recollection that even when he was of collegiate MVP status at Arizona State, his teammates nonethless voted him off the team (but the coach would have none of it). Can anybody verify that?

(I've had this distaste for Bonds the human for years; didn't stop me from eagerly going to watch him play; the night he hit 71 and 72 was incredible. Even knowing what we know now)
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:48 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.



Lying at every turn is a good start.

What does honesty have to do with personality? Even the most charismatic people can be pathological liars and the biggest assholes can be honest.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:48 am

It is my understanding (not personal knowledge) that Bonds has the reputation that he does because he has earned it from many repeated instances since forever -- this is not a BALCO-era occurrence.

Bonds was also a great player before he became a committed user of what in many sports are PEDs. McGuire was always a really good player - not on the same level and did not have several MVPs that led to him getting contracts with the highest salary in baseball beginning rather far back. I am even unsure of my feelings on Hall of Fame, as I think he would have been in it without the chemical assistance (however, MJ might well have been almost as good, but not as "multi-evented" at OG/WCs).
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:48 am

guru wrote:Lying at every turn is a good start.

Wonder if we'll see Barry do the Marion plea for forgiveness thing?



Using your son as a prop is another and I suspect we won't see Barry on Oprah.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:51 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I suspect most people deride Bonds' personality on the basis of media hearsay.



Lying at every turn is a good start.

What does honesty have to do with personality? Even the most charismatic people can be pathological liars and the biggest assholes can be honest.


Yeah, until BALCO broke, I never had any thought that Bonds was anything but a most difficult human being to deal with, not any kind of snake.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:57 am

I want to refer everyone back to paulthefan axiom number 1 regarding PEDs... players with the largest contract $$ are most likely in the deepest. This one is based on basic economics.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:01 am

then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:08 am

gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


As in track, it's the second-tier athletes trying to make up for talent shortcomings, and fading stars trying to recapture their luster.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:15 am

gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


Unfortunately several scenarios come to mind.

1 The top players are warned in advance.

2 The top players have more sophisticated routines that are harder to detect.

3 With $100m on the line for a single player, they can fund research into drugs that pass the tests baseball administers.

4 The tests are suppressed

The fourth one is the only one that I have no faith in myself; number three is quite ominous in its implications.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:28 am

26mi235 wrote:1 The top players are warned in advance.

Didn't The New York Times reveal that MLB's drug testers routinely notify the team ahead of time when they are coming to town for testing?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:30 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:1 The top players are warned in advance.

Didn't The New York Times reveal that MLB's drug testers routinely notify the team ahead of time when they are coming to town for testing?


One day.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:1 The top players are warned in advance.

Didn't The New York Times reveal that MLB's drug testers routinely notify the team ahead of time when they are coming to town for testing?


Yes, the tester have to get stadium passes from the team, so the team has to be told in advance. I wonder how many other holes that you can drive a truck through they have in their testing regime. And some people complained about Masback and USATF....
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:38 am

guru wrote:
gh wrote:then why is it that most who have fallen afoul of (admittedly weak) testing have by and large been shlubs in baseball?


As in track, it's the second-tier athletes trying to make up for talent shortcomings, and fading stars trying to recapture their luster.


That then, puts the lie to the suggestion that those w/ the biggest contracts are the deepest into drugs.
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