Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby BillVol » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:00 am

Why is NBC calling the upcoming winter Olympics city "Torino" and not "Turin," as most Americans have been taught to call it?

We don't call other Italian cities Milano and Roma or Firenze. Why is Turin now Torino?

It is interesting to notice which cities and names we decide to use in their original language and those which we decide to translate.

The all-time dubious translation is Cristobal Colon. That just sounds too Spanish! So we decided to call him Christopher Columbus. Ahh, now that's better. Less notable Spanish explorers get to keep the Spanish version of their names, such as Ponce de Leon. Still other explorers, such as Magellan (sp) (he may have been Portuguese; too lazy to google it) get translated.

Interesting!
BillVol
 
Posts: 3759
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Chattanooga

Postby MJR » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:27 am

Beijing was called Peking for years too, so its not just people but also places that our arrogance and laziness of the use of language has mislabeled things for many years.
MJR
 
Posts: 1813
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: on walkabout....

Re: Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby gh » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:07 am

BillVol wrote:The all-time dubious translation is Cristobal Colon. That just sounds too Spanish! So we decided to call him Christopher Columbus. Ahh, now that's better. Less notable Spanish explorers get to keep the Spanish version of their names, such as Ponce de Leon. Still other explorers, such as Magellan (sp) (he may have been Portuguese; too lazy to google it) get translated.

Interesting!


More interesting than you think! The Spanish may have called him Cristobal Colon, but since he was Italian, he called himself Cristoforo Colombo!
gh
 
Posts: 46323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby tafnut » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:24 am

gh wrote:he called himself Cristoforo Colombo!


Colombo?! As in another mystery solver? Related? :o
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby Nuvoleinviaggio » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:20 pm

tafnut wrote:[

Colombo?! As in another mystery solver? Related? :o


Yeah, infact he solved the mistery “where is America?” :wink:
Nuvoleinviaggio
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:55 am

Postby bambam » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:20 pm

"Beijing was called Peking for years too, so its not just people but also places that our arrogance and laziness of the use of language has mislabeled things for many years."

That is completely different. There have been two major transliteration systems for Chinese over the years - Wade-Giles was commonly used until about 1960, when they switched to Pinyin. Peking was the Wade-Giles transliteration, while Beijing is Pinyin. Similarly - Mao Tse-Tung = Wade=Giles, while in Pinyin he is Mao Zedong.

The standard in Olympic circles has been to use the Anglicized name. Torino is really the first time this has changed to any degree, but the change is not universal. There was an article on this, in of all places, the Wall Street Journal, within the last two weeks - by Stefan Fatsis (and a co-author).

At any rate, it makes no sense to use the Anglicized name. What is wrong with calling Firenze Firenze instead of Florence? What right to we have to change the name of their city? Have never understood this.
bambam
 
Posts: 3848
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby BillVol » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:08 pm

More interesting than you think! The Spanish may have called him Cristobal Colon, but since he was Italian, he called himself Cristoforo Colombo!


Damn! And I knew that too. (Knew he was Italian.) Was that his actual name in Italian?
BillVol
 
Posts: 3759
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Chattanooga

Postby tandfman » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:20 pm

bambam wrote:At any rate, it makes no sense to use the Anglicized name. What is wrong with calling Firenze Firenze instead of Florence? What right to we have to change the name of their city? Have never understood this.

It's not a question of changing the name of their city. This city happens to have an English name and that name is Florence. Do you refer to Germany as Deutschland or Italy as Italia? I don't, wnen I'm speaking English. Why should cities be different? It seems to me that when a city or country has an English name, that is the name that should be used by people who are speaking English. I don't know why NBC is referring to Torino. If they said Athens, they should say Turin.
Last edited by tandfman on Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15042
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby Nuvoleinviaggio » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:42 am

BillVol wrote: Was that his actual name in Italian?

yep!
Nuvoleinviaggio
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:55 am

Postby Master Po » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:31 am

[quote="bambam"]"Beijing was called Peking for years too, so its not just people but also places that our arrogance and laziness of the use of language has mislabeled things for many years."

That is completely different. There have been two major transliteration systems for Chinese over the years - Wade-Giles was commonly used until about 1960, when they switched to Pinyin. Peking was the Wade-Giles transliteration, while Beijing is Pinyin. Similarly - Mao Tse-Tung = Wade=Giles, while in Pinyin he is Mao Zedong.

The standard in Olympic circles has been to use the Anglicized name. Torino is really the first time this has changed to any degree, but the change is not universal. There was an article on this, in of all places, the Wall Street Journal, within the last two weeks - by Stefan Fatsis (and a co-author).

At any rate, it makes no sense to use the Anglicized name. What is wrong with calling Firenze Firenze instead of Florence? What right to we have to change the name of their city? Have never understood this.[/quote

Actually, "Peking" is not Wade-Giles romanisation. In W-G, Beijing would be "Pei-ching," which I can't remember seeing anywhere, the reason being that "Peking" (and some alternative names for the city that are no longer in use, e.g, "Pei-ping"), became a well-known romanisation of that city's name.

I think "Peking" predates W-G (which developed mid-19th to early 20th centuries) by some time. Even though I study these things for part of my living, I don't really know the origin of "Peking" as romanisation of the city we now know as Beijing. It looks like a some of the romanisations I see in earlier French attempts to render Chinese into this alphabet.

Not that any of this matters for this thread, because the issue in this thread is not "romanisation" -- the challenge of rendering the Chinese writing system into this alphabet, which is a necessity if you don't read Chinese at all, or if your typesetter/font package can't print Chinese characters -- but rather is anglicisation -- changing names such as "Torino" to "Turin", which seems utterly unnecessary. Even if some viewers/readers are accustomed o "Turin", educating them to "Torino" isn't a major shift. Likewise, Westerners eventually got used to seeing "Bejing" instead of "Peking" in references to that city in CHina.

However, "Peking" is probably still in use in some contexts. I haven't seen a reference in a Chinese restaurant menu or Chinese cookbook to "Beijing Duck" (But it's probably out there somewhere...)
Master Po
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: north coast USA

Re: Why "Torino" and not "Turin"?

Postby nevetsllim » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:55 am

BillVol wrote:Why is NBC calling the upcoming winter Olympics city "Torino" and not "Turin," as most Americans have been taught to call it?

We don't call other Italian cities Milano and Roma or Firenze. Why is Turin now Torino?

It is interesting to notice which cities and names we decide to use in their original language and those which we decide to translate.

The all-time dubious translation is Cristobal Colon. That just sounds too Spanish! So we decided to call him Christopher Columbus. Ahh, now that's better. Less notable Spanish explorers get to keep the Spanish version of their names, such as Ponce de Leon. Still other explorers, such as Magellan (sp) (he may have been Portuguese; too lazy to google it) get translated.

Interesting!


Torino sounds nicer that Turin
nevetsllim
 
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:54 am

Postby tandfman » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:45 am

tandfman wrote: I don't know why NBC is referring to Torino. If they said Athens, they should say Turin.

An afterthought. They may have just changed their policy on such things, but there won't be any way to test that for quite some time. The next Olympic Games are in Beijing. Although it was once something else, there is only one way for NBC to say Beijing today without using Chinese characters. And Vancouver and London (2010 and 2012) are already English names.

Another afterthought. I wonder what NBC will do if they ever have occasion to refer to what I presume they have always called the Shroud of Turin.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15042
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Postby tafnut » Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:25 am

If you look at the offical logo:

Image

you see 'Torino' is built into it, so that's that!
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Postby dukehjsteve » Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:52 am

[quote="tafnut"]If you look at the offical logo:

[img]http://www.olympics.bm/images/torino%202006%20logo%20sm.JPG[/img]

you see 'Torino' is built into it, so that's that![/quote]

Good observation tafnut, about the logo. That's probably what steered NBC's decision, and probably correctly so. ( Plus, I used to own a Ford Torino in about 1971.)
dukehjsteve
 
Posts: 6056
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Fishers, IN

logo

Postby BillVol » Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:38 pm

I think they can make up logos in different languages. I think they usually do.

I think the reason is, as someone said, Torino just plain sounds better!
BillVol
 
Posts: 3759
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Chattanooga

Re: logo

Postby tafnut » Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:31 pm

BillVol wrote:I think they can make up logos in different languages. I think they usually do.

I think the reason is, as someone said, Torino just plain sounds better!


Not - If you google Images for "Winter Olympics 2006" all you'll get is Torino. No logos with "Turin" or any other spelling. It's Torino, period.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Torino

Postby BillVol » Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:42 pm

Just saying that OOCs often have their logos in different languages. However, maybe the fact that the main logo says Torino might be the reason.
BillVol
 
Posts: 3759
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Chattanooga

Postby tafnut » Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:48 pm

Reading my 'USA Today', I note the front page dateline for the Olympic Security article is 'Torino'. Is this the death knell for Turin, as in when Peking was suddenly Beijing and there was no turning back?
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Postby big mac » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:13 am

Turin has religious connotations, that is unacceptable in the secular world.

:D
big mac
 
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Jupiter

Postby utkvol80 » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:01 am

The New York Times is using Turin.
utkvol80
 
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: logo

Postby Walt Murphy » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:45 am

BillVol wrote:I think they can make up logos in different languages. I think they usually do.

I think the reason is, as someone said, Torino just plain sounds better!



My NBC source says that Dick Ebersol thtought it sounded better, so Torino it is.
Walt Murphy
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby gh » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:08 am

This all just reflects moving away from the insular Europe of the Middle Ages where people felt the need to translate everything into their own language. In a world a little more sensitive to the wishes of others, there's a growing trend (albeit a tiny one) to refer to geographical terms relative to the wishes of those who actually live there (China clearly had the clout to demand and get sweeping changes). Think Ivory Coast now being Côte d'Ivoire (they actually made such a demand of the United Nations as I recall), Bombay being Mumbai (although I refuse to order a Mumbai/tonic! :-)

The ATFS Annual has for many years listed all cities in local parlance.
gh
 
Posts: 46323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Postby tafnut » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:12 am

gh wrote:In a world a little more sensitive to the wishes of others, there's a growing trend (albeit a tiny one) to refer to geographical terms relative to the wishes of those who actually live there


then get ready for

Milano
Firenze
Roma
Genova
Moskva
Napoli
Munchen
Koln
Bucuresti
Cd. de Mexico
Warszawa
Padova
Athiniai
Lisboa
Bruxelles
Kyiv
etc.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Postby lonewolf » Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:37 pm

All this linguist talk reminds me of the time I visited Europe a half century ago, courtesy of Uncle Sam.... came out of a tunnel thru the Alps and drove half the length of Italy looking for a hotel.. finally asked for directions at an albergo..
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Postby tandfman » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:46 pm

tafnut wrote:
gh wrote:In a world a little more sensitive to the wishes of others, there's a growing trend (albeit a tiny one) to refer to geographical terms relative to the wishes of those who actually live there


then get ready for

Milano
Firenze
Roma
Genova
Moskva
Napoli
Munchen
Koln
Bucuresti
Cd. de Mexico
Warszawa
Padova
Athiniai
Lisboa
Bruxelles
Kyiv
etc.

You forgot some diacriticals, which in some cases add another dimension to the problem. And with or without diacriticals, there's a pronunciation issue. Do you say Lisboa as if that were an English word (Liz-boh-uh) or do you pronounce the first syllable Lizh, as the Portuguese do? I think that when speaking English, it's best to be consistent in using the English version of the name where there is one, with the English pronunciation, of course. Anglicized pronunciation is usually correct even where the name is the same in in both languages (Paris, not Paree; Mexico, not May-hee-co).
tandfman
 
Posts: 15042
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Postby gh » Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:18 pm

And what's truly "anglicized"? Not uncommon to hear a Frenchman speaking in English to refer to his city as Pa-reece.
gh
 
Posts: 46323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Postby Daisy » Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:45 pm

tandfman wrote:I think that when speaking English, it's best to be consistent in using the English version of the name where there is one, with the English pronunciation, of course.


What happens if the American English pronunciation is different to the British English? Should Americans continue to pronounce Edinburgh as 'Edinborrow' or switch to the British English of 'Edinburr ah'?

I'm not sure how to do the correct phonetics but i think above make the point.
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby tandfman » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:05 pm

gh wrote:And what's truly "anglicized"? Not uncommon to hear a Frenchman speaking in English to refer to his city as Pa-reece.

That's just English with a French accent. The fact that the Frenchman pronounces the last letter at all tells you that he is trying to say it in English. The fact that he mis-pronounces it tells you only that his English is not perfect. It certainly doesn't mean that a native speaker of English should pronounce it that way.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15042
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Postby tandfman » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:21 pm

Daisy wrote:What happens if the American English pronunciation is different to the British English? Should Americans continue to pronounce Edinburgh as 'Edinborrow' or switch to the British English of 'Edinburr ah'?

I'm not sure how to do the correct phonetics but i think above make the point.

It's a good point and I understand it, but that's perhaps not a good example. I checked two American dictionaries (AHD and MWIII) and both show a pronunciation close to what we both think the British say. Although I have heard some Americans pronounce it as if it rhymed with borough, that is not a proper American pronunciation.

But I do appreciate the point you are making. I am an American and I speak Standard American English. When I am speaking to a British person, I may occasionally adopt a British word usage to make myself more clear, but I certainly do not try to speak with what Americans would call a British accent. I pronounce words exactly as I would when speaking to an American. I'm not sure that answers your question, so let me just answer it--"no."
tandfman
 
Posts: 15042
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Postby Daisy » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:40 pm

tandfman wrote:I'm not sure that answers your question, so let me just answer it--"no."

I am also not sure of the answer. Most Americans i speak to about it actually can't tell the difference so i suppose it is a subtle difference. Nevertheless to me it sounds like a completely different pronunciation.
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby tafnut » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:59 pm

it's pronounced "ed-en * bur-ro"

it means literally: "that on which Adam rode out of the Garden"
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Postby Daisy » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:15 pm

tafnut wrote:it's pronounced "ed-en * bur-ro"

it means literally: "that on which Adam rode out of the Garden"

"bur-ro" So where did you get this? This is what i was trying to get at with borrow. Why 'ro' at the end? Have the Brits changed since 1700's or have the US?
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby tafnut » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:17 pm

Daisy wrote:
tafnut wrote:it's pronounced "ed-en * bur-ro"

it means literally: "that on which Adam rode out of the Garden"

"bur-ro" So where did you get this? This is what i was trying to get at with borrow. Why 'ro' at the end? Have the Brits changed since 1700's or have the US?


OMG! Tell me you got the joke!!!
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Postby tandfman » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:30 pm

utkvol80 wrote:The New York Times is using Turin.

So is the Wall Street Journal.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15042
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests