Lance Armstrong Formally Charged By USADA

[Pego]

My position is to keep anabolic steroids, HGH, EPO and some masking agents on the banned list. Everything else I would clear off the list.

Lowering the number of substances on the banned list would increase WADA's credibility. The more substances you have on the list, the tougher it is argue that really all of them are dangerous; with fewer substances that argument is easier to make.

We are on the same page now .

[Dutra5]

My position is to keep anabolic steroids, HGH, EPO and some masking agents on the banned list. Everything else I would clear off the list.

Lowering the number of substances on the banned list would increase WADA's credibility. The more substances you have on the list, the tougher it is argue that really all of them are dangerous; with fewer substances that argument is easier to make.

We are on the same page now .

Makes sense to me.

[kamikaze7]

The reason why folks in the media don't like him is because he's a surly Black man, which is the worst thing that a superstar Black athlete can be.

You may have just exposed the hypocrisy of those on this thread who are rushing to their keyboards to defend Lance. You are making the point about Americans having selective amnesia. Americans approve of PEDs only when the athlete is as popular as Lance Armstrong. If it is an unpopular athlete then PEDs are the worst thing in sports.

Barry Bonds and all the other baseball players who doped prior to 2003 aren't even part of the discussion because there was no drug testing/enforcement program prior to then.

Even if there was no enforcement, it was still cheating. If a person robs a bank because he knows there is no security and other bank robbers have an easy time robbing that bank, it is still wrong. By the same token people who use PEDs because there is no enforcement are still cheaters.

If an athlete is in a sport in which there is no drug testing enforcement policy, or if there is a lax policy under which 95% of the athletes are doping, I frankly don't feel sorry for him/her.

This is precisely the rotten attitude that is killing the sport of track and field. I find it amazing that track fans have this attitude. Anytime the public perceives a sport as being dirty, the fans start to bail out of the sport. Lance Armstrong has ruined the tour de France for many Americans just as Marion Jones and many before her ruined the sport of track and field for many Americans.

[kamikaze7]

And the whole thing about Armstrong's sponsors being hurt retroactively by his doping is totally nonsensical. The money is already in the bank that came from the advertising. No one is trying make those companies give it back

That is bogus. First off I did not say anything about retroactive. Most people even those with half a brain know that a company cannot loose money retroactively.
Secondly, companies paid Lance Armstrong a lump sum under the assumption that he is going to remain marketable for many years to come. If he suddenly becomes unmarketable yet he has already pocketed the money from sponsors then his sponsors loose money and he has in essence cheated them out of future earnings.

Also he portrayed a false image of himself as a clean athlete. He therefore earned those endorsements under false pretenses. He is basically a fraud. It would have been better if he told the American public that he uses PEDs because everyone at the Tour De France uses them and there is no way to win without them

And this is precisley the biggest problem with Lance. Most of you are defending him saying that he had no choice but to use dope. If this is true then why cant he just come foward, admit he used PEDs because everyone else did. He is still being a fraud by denying he used dope.

[lonewolf]

Help me out here folks.
I am not here to condemn or defend Lance Armstrong.
I don't know if he used PEDS and neither does anyone else (except Armstrong and anyone involved)with provable certainty. He passed all the drug tests during competition and the allegation that "everyone else was doing it" is not proof of anything. You can suspect and believe it with all your heart but that does not make it true. Disgruntled convicted competitors
are not impartial credible witnesses.
My problem with this situation is that by this logic anyone could accuse anyone of a crime when there is not even any evidence a crime has been committed.

Playing Practical Devils Advocate: If he was using and all the contenders were using, is that not a level playing field? How do we identify the one clean competitor who was cheated?

[Flumpy]

Maybe there weren't any. That doesn't meant thaat those caught shouldn't be punished.

[jazzcyclist]

And this is precisley the biggest problem with Lance. Most of you are defending him saying that he had no choice but to use dope. If this is true then why cant he just come foward, admit he used PEDs because everyone else did. He is still being a fraud by denying he used dope.

I agree with this. Once an athlete is no longer in legal jeopardy, he/she should fess up. The reason Mark McGuire refused to fess up in his Congressional hearings is because the Feds refused to grant him immunity. I don't blame Armstrong for lying when he was in the crosshairs of Jeff Novitzky, but as of February 3, 2012, he no longer has that to worry about. Previous Tour winners Bjarne Riis and Jan Ullrich have fessed up about their doping. However, I don't know if they stand to lose as much endorsement income as Armstrong does.

[Conor Dary]

Maybe there weren't any. That doesn't meant thaat those caught shouldn't be punished.

He wasn't caught. Remember he has passed all the tests. Landis was caught and he paid.

[Conor Dary]

And this is precisley the biggest problem with Lance. Most of you are defending him saying that he had no choice but to use dope. If this is true then why cant he just come foward, admit he used PEDs because everyone else did. He is still being a fraud by denying he used dope.

I agree with this. Once an athlete is no longer in legal jeopardy, he/she should fess up. The reason Mark McGuire refused to fess up in his Congressional hearings is because the Feds refused to grant him immunity. I don't blame Armstrong for lying when he was in the crosshairs of Jeff Novitzky, but as of February 3, 2012, he no longer has that to worry about. Previous Tour winners Bjarne Riis and Jan Ullrich have fessed up about their doping. However, I don't know if they stand to lose as much endorsement income as Armstrong does.

The problem with confessing is the context. It would be one thing if the public understood that not long ago, probably everyone in the peloton was on something. But LA's best bet is to fuck off to everyone.

Frankly, I wouldn't have such a problem with this investigation if it involved all the riders in the Tour those years LA rode. But they don't want to do that, for many reasons, so let's find a Big Fat target to boost our Profile.

By the way, why is the USADA involved in a foreign race? Why don't they do NASCAR or something? Let them try to investigate Junior. Or guys climbing Everest. I am sure there are a few taking testosterone to get up that thing.

[Dutra5]

The problem with confessing is the context. It would be one thing if the public understood that not long ago, probably everyone in the peloton was on something. But LA's best bet is to fuck off to everyone.

I heard the public doesn't care.

[Conor Dary]

The problem with confessing is the context. It would be one thing if the public understood that not long ago, probably everyone in the peloton was on something. But LA's best bet is to fuck off to everyone.

I heard the public doesn't care.

Quite so.

By the way, Clemens not guilty. Another dumb case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/sport ... al.html?hp

[Flumpy]

Maybe there weren't any. That doesn't meant that those caught shouldn't be punished.

He wasn't caught. Remember he has passed all the tests. Landis was caught and he paid.

He hasn't been caught yet. Failing a test is not the only way that someone can be found guilty as well you know.

[Conor Dary]

Maybe there weren't any. That doesn't meant that those caught shouldn't be punished.

He wasn't caught. Remember he has passed all the tests. Landis was caught and he paid.

He hasn't been caught yet. Failing a test is not the only way that someone can be found guilty as well you know.

Yea, and I am sure if USADA put the same effort into the entire peloton who knows how many they could find. 10 years ago, probably everyone.

[odelltrclan]

Yea, and I am sure if USADA put the same effort into the entire peloton who knows how many they could find. 10 years ago, probably everyone.

USADA is not responsible for the entire peleton. They are responsible for U.S. athletes are they not?

[Conor Dary]

Yea, and I am sure if USADA put the same effort into the entire peloton who knows how many they could find. 10 years ago, probably everyone.

USADA is not responsible for the entire peleton. They are responsible for U.S. athletes are they not?

Great. What does this have to do with a race in France? Why not test all of the Americans in base camp climbing Everest?

[odelltrclan]

Great. What does this have to do with a race in France? Why not test all of the Americans in base camp climbing Everest?

USADA is responsible for American athletes competing world wide. It has nothing to do with where the event is, whether in the U.S., in France, or Italy. Each country is supposed to have their own doping agencies to ensure fair play in sports around the world, but, as we know, they don't all operate the same way (i.e. Contador), hence WADA and the court for Arbitration for Sport.

I think Lance will very likely go down, and probably deservedly so. I have read many of the comments on this board about who was hurt, etc. Some better insight is available on Cycling News in their Clinic forum. Lance has pretty much tried to ruin many a person who stood up against him anywhere along the way. There is a mountain of carnage he has spread and it has finally caught up with him.

[jazzcyclist]

Quite so.

By the way, Clemens not guilty. Another dumb case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/sport ... al.html?hp

Clemens is the one guy in this whole mess that I have no sympathy for because he went out and picked a fight with the Feds.

[Conor Dary]

Quite so.

By the way, Clemens not guilty. Another dumb case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/sport ... al.html?hp

Clemens is the one guy in this whole mess that I have no sympathy for because he went out and picked a fight with the Feds.

I don't like the guy either. But the Feds case was pretty weak. After Pettite bailed their only witness is the sleaziest guy in the whole affair.

[Conor Dary]

Great. What does this have to do with a race in France? Why not test all of the Americans in base camp climbing Everest?

USADA is responsible for American athletes competing world wide. It has nothing to do with where the event is, whether in the U.S., in France, or Italy. Each country is supposed to have their own doping agencies to ensure fair play in sports around the world, but, as we know, they don't all operate the same way (i.e. Contador), hence WADA and the court for Arbitration for Sport.

Yea, each country...like the Russians or the Chinese are going to chase down their cyclists. Is USADA like that silly U.S. Navy ad, 'A Global Force for Good'? It is all pretty dumb. And what about baseball players? Why cyclists? Because they are an easy target? USADA knew they could blackmail cyclists because the whole peloton was doing EPO or something like that.

Idiotic , but it keeps the Puritans like yourself happy.

[jazzcyclist]

I don't like the guy either. But the Feds case was pretty weak. After Pettite bailed their only witness is the sleaziest guy in the whole affair.

Clemens should get on his hands and knees every night and thank Pettitte for going the Frankie Pentangeli route because he was a very credible witness.

[Conor Dary]

I don't like the guy either. But the Feds case was pretty weak. After Pettitte bailed their only witness is the sleaziest guy in the whole affair.

Clemens should get on his hands and knees every night and thank Pettitte for going the Frankie Pentangeli route because he was a very credible witness.

You got that right. Though I suspect AP probably thought that, should RC go to jail just because he told me once that he took HGH? That is a big responsibility for an old teammate and a faulty memory came in very handy.

[Conor Dary]

Lance has pretty much tried to ruin many a person who stood up against him anywhere along the way. There is a mountain of carnage he has spread and it has finally caught up with him.

So it is personal. He is too arrogant so USADA should go after him. Puritans unite!

[odelltrclan]

Lance has pretty much tried to ruin many a person who stood up against him anywhere along the way. There is a mountain of carnage he has spread and it has finally caught up with him.

So it is personal. He is too arrogant so USADA should go after him. Puritans unite!

Always some form of personal dig from you. Anyone who shares a different view from you must be labeled? I could label you very easily as well but will refrain.

USADA has a job to do. Many, many people have been trying to clean up the sport of cycling (among others) for years. Lance would have never gotten this far without considerable help along the way. He had resources that the average athlete did and does not. Many people, who had no bones to pick with him became enemies because they were trying to do the right thing. If he goes down, he will have earned it.

I was a huge Lance fan for quite some time. Bought his books and bullshit. The day I watched him chase down Filipo Simeoni was the day my beliefs about him started to turn. You don't have to look far to find much. He is a liar that has and is being enabled by his worshippers.

I find it ironic how when a Track person has been busted how everyone on here turns on them. Some well known stars who "never failed a drug test". Yet the so-called American hero Lance Armstrong who has left many a victim in his wake gets a pass. According to you, who cares if all the Peleton was doing it? Really, do you know this? They have been trying to clean up that sport seriously since the mid 1990's and particularly after the Festina debacle. So, if the big Machine that is Lance Inc gets by for so long is it wrong to still pursue cleaning it up? What a better way than to bring down the king of kings in circumventing the system?

[Conor Dary]

Lance has pretty much tried to ruin many a person who stood up against him anywhere along the way. There is a mountain of carnage he has spread and it has finally caught up with him.

So it is personal. He is too arrogant so USADA should go after him. Puritans unite!

Always some form of personal dig from you. Anyone who shares a different view from you must be labeled? I could label you very easily as well but will refrain.

According to you, who cares if all the Peleton was doing it? Really, do you know this?

I don't know this and neither does the USADA, or care. It is a foreign race so what is the US involved in it. Who cares, except for the Puritans? But obviously you dislike LA so intensely, anyway to get him is fine with you.

As for personal digs, if you want to act like a Puritan, than so be it.

[odelltrclan]

I don't know this and neither does the USADA, or care. It is a foreign race so what is the US involved in it.

USADA's job is to monitor US athletes competing in such events. It doesn't make an iota of difference if the race is not in the United States. It also has nothing to do with other athletes in these events. It is WADA's job and in this case, UCI's, and the individual athlete's countries. We already have pretty good evidence Lance Inc bought of UCI. Evidence has been provided to USADA, probably by the feds after they decided not to pursue him on federal charges. If USADA has been presented evidence on an athlete it is their JOB to investigate. Period. It does not matter if he has millions of worshippers.

[Conor Dary]

I don't know this and neither does the USADA, or care. It is a foreign race so what is the US involved in it.

USADA's job is to monitor US athletes competing in such events. It doesn't make an iota of difference if the race is not in the United States. It also has nothing to do with other athletes in these events. It is WADA's job and in this case, UCI's, and the individual athlete's countries. We already have pretty good evidence Lance Inc bought of UCI. Evidence has been provided to USADA, probably by the feds after they decided not to pursue him on federal charges. If USADA has been presented evidence on an athlete it is their JOB to investigate. Period. It does not matter if he has millions of worshippers.

Why is it their job? Who cares what happens in the Tour de France? They are not representing the US. It is not the Olympics, just a professional event. Why not NASCAR? Why not NBA players who actually do play in the Olympics?

The USADA is just a bunch of guys trying to justify their existence. Most* of their funding is a U.S. federal grant through the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP). Cycling is an easy target, because its fan base is .05%, LA is a celebrity and he has made a few enemies. How could they resist. Keep the Puritans and spurned fans happy. Lets see some Blood!

*http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/sports/cycling/us-anti-doping-agency-braces-for-legal-battle-in-lance-armstrong-case.html?pagewanted=all

[26mi235]

Secondly Lance has become immensely wealthy. If he did this because he cheated then he as robbed the public who bought the products he endorsed. He robbed his sponsors which includes the tax payer funded United states post office. He robbed the sport of cycling. Its popularity is sure to wane now amongst the American public. The impact of having a larger than life figure like Lance busted for cheating will destroy the sport.

If you said that he robbed someone of an honor (TdF winner), you would be right. However, Lance did not steal money from the riders in general; rather he generated a huge revenue flow for the sport and for the riders. Many, many riders made much more money because of what Lance brought tot he sport.

LeMond did to, but to a lesser extent than Lance.

[Conor Dary]

Secondly Lance has become immensely wealthy. If he did this because he cheated then he as robbed the public who bought the products he endorsed. He robbed his sponsors which includes the tax payer funded United states post office. He robbed the sport of cycling. Its popularity is sure to wane now amongst the American public. The impact of having a larger than life figure like Lance busted for cheating will destroy the sport.

If you said that he robbed someone of an honor (TdF winner), you would be right. However, Lance did not steal money from the riders in general; rather he generated a huge revenue flow for the sport and for the riders. Many, many riders made much more money because of what Lance brought tot he sport.

Exactly. As to k7, what a load of rubbish.

[jazzcyclist]

Kamikaze7, take a look at the folks who finished second and third during Lance's seven Tour wins: Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso, Alex Zulle, Joseba Beloki, Raimondas Rumšas, Andreas Kloden and Alexander Vinokourov. What do they all have in common?

Here's a hint.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... -2008.html

[Conor Dary]

I have a suggestion. GH has not closed this section down, and everyone is having a good time on the Euro soccer thread. So why don't we just lay off this thread until after the Trials.

[jazzcyclist]

No problem.

[Gabriella]

Hopefully they've finally got him. I dont care how long he's been retired or whether this is seen as 'old news' by blinkered US fans. This will hopefully ruin his reputation and be a lesson to everyone. You can be caught.

[Conor Dary]

My, my someone sure is envious....What is with this hostility? Is it because he hangs out with Sheryl Crow? Would you be happier if he hung out with Ted Nugent?

It is a bicycle race in France and some folks seem to think act like it is the end of the world...

Your taxes at work investigating a race in France....about a race that happened 7 years ago...I agree it is a big priority...

Anyways, we had a truce until the 4th, but some can't wait.