Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team


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Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:51 am

Who coached these dopers & who did they compete for at the time they were caught.

2012
Christian Hesch
Debbie Dunn

2010
Chris Lucezic (know this was a retirement issue)
Mark Jelks
Ivory Williams
Garfield Ellenwood (club only)
Philippe DeRosier

2009
Jordan Vaden
Mitchell Pope

2007
Jeffrey Chakouian

2006
Scott Boothby
John Capel
Rickey Harris

2005
Chryste Gaines
Leo Bookman
Deeja Youngquist

2004
John Capel
John McEwen
Christopher Phillips
Chryste Gaines
Eric Thomas
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby gh » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:05 pm

tread lightly on this one, my friends. (projected life span: less than a couple of hours)
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby dustoff » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:38 pm

What on earth--Why have you included a list of people that tested positive for THC and garbage like methylhex, but not included plenty of others?

A lot of the athletes that suddenly retire or drop off the map may not have been outed, but have tested positive in one way or another.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:03 pm

Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:18 am

polevaultpower wrote:Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...


Why would anybody use finasteride as a PED? It is an anti-androgen :roll: . Why would it even be on the Index?
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby trackinblack2 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:38 am

Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...


Why would anybody use finasteride as a PED? It is an anti-androgen :roll: . Why would it even be on the Index?

Anti-androgens can be used to mask the use of Testosterone and other Androgenic Hormones if used correctly.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:33 am

trackinblack2 wrote:
Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...


Why would anybody use finasteride as a PED? It is an anti-androgen :roll: . Why would it even be on the Index?

Anti-androgens can be used to mask the use of Testosterone and other Androgenic Hormones if used correctly.


This make sense. Educate me some more. With the variability of testosterone production and metabolism, it must be quite an art to properly time this for competition. The trouble is that there is also random testing. Do they just risk it? I don't see how you can time that.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:45 am

This list was pulled from the USADA website of track athletes with adverse findings. I'm not looking for some great discussion, just some help filling in the blanks. Please stick only to the topic as explained in the first post.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:50 am

polevaultpower wrote:Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...


and was reinstated once propecia was pulled from the wada lists
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:55 am

Trackinblack2, MJR wants to keep this thread pure. Could you respond to me on the "stimulants" thread?
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby gh » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:14 am

MJR wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...


and was reinstated once propecia was pulled from the wada lists


Yet you've tarred him by including him on a list you titled <<Who coached these dopers & who did they compete for at the time they were caught.>>
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:25 am

i pulled raw data, not looking at the athletes, just using that data because the other stuff is not available. going in the other direction with this for a specific reason. will discuss privately, if you'd like.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:30 pm

You clearly didn't pull the raw data from any reputable/up-to-date source because you left off certain athletes and included others without any consideration for the substance or whether or not they are even banned.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby Master Po » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:14 pm

I'll go with the expressed purpose of this thread. I'll comment on 3, with some sources, and a followup question/comment:

Deeja Youngquist
viewtopic.php?t=4206
As the interview on this April 2004 TFN thread shows, she was coached at that time by Teddy Mitchell. This time period -- Spring of 2004 -- was the time of the test for which she was sanctioned (EPO).

Christian Hesch
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/sport ... d=all&_r=0
The facts of his use as reported in this NY Times article were not disputed that I know of. He was a member of Nike Team Run L.A., but -- as I understand this case -- it would be quite wrong to associate his actions with that club, as it was club members who upon discovering his EPO use demanded that he come forward and confess, or else they would report him. Nike Team Run L.A. does not provide coaching, so I think you could say that Mr. Hesch was both self-coached and self-medicated, as the NY Times story indicates.

Chris Lukezic
http://www.runblogrun.com/2010/09/some- ... der-1.html
Larry Eder's RunBlogRun column describes the details of his case well. You yourself note that this was one of those post-retirement "sanctions" for a missed test. So, why include him in a list of what you describe as "dopers"? Lukezic publicly announced his retirement in November 2009, and then was "sanctioned" nearly a year later for having "missed " an out-of-competition test in the Spring of 2010. To include him in this list, in any way -- even if you qualify his inclusion with your note -- is problematic. If there is any instance where "not all sanctions are alike" it is this category of post-retirement sanctions. Those are absurd, and your inclusion of Lukezic here is close to that, imo.

So, I will ask a followup question, with sincere interest: What are you working on, researching, thinking about, with this thread? I know nothing about most of these people you list, but of the three for which I am familiar, they are rather different cases, to put it mildly: One an elite (USA) athlete as of 2004, when she failed a test, for which she was ultimately sanctioned. Another a self-coached, self-medicated (so to speak) club runner about whom none of us would ever have known, except for his 15 minutes of "fame" for telling his doping story upon his confession as a result of the pressure of his club mates, whom I thank for outing him, however small a fish he was. Finally, a well-regarded professional runner who represented the USA at the WJC, WIC, and WC, and who completed his career in good graces, retired "properly", and then was bureaucratically sanctioned for not being in step with USADA's process.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby Blues » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:05 pm

gh wrote:
MJR wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:Boothby tested positive for Propecia (a hair loss treatment)...


and was reinstated once propecia was pulled from the wada lists


Yet you've tarred him by including him on a list you titled <<Who coached these dopers & who did they compete for at the time they were caught.>>


I agree that MJR's labeling of certain athletes as dopers stepped way over the line, but in all fairness, when it comes to finasteride, the reason finasteride was removed from the banned list wasn't because the authorities determined that it didn't mask steroids, but rather because the new technology (2009) for testing for steroids, including the biological passport, rendered finasteride's ability to mask less effective.

With all due respect to Mr. Boothby, an athlete who was sanctioned for testing positive for finasteride prior to the changes in testing technology could definitely (but not necessarily) have benefitted from the masking properties of finasteride at the time he or she tested positive. If he or she was reinstated because finasteride was taken off the banned list when newer and more effective means of steroid detection became available, it doesn't necessarily prove that the athlete wasn't using it to mask anabolic steroid use at an earlier period when the athlete was using it and tested positive. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a later reinstatement isn't always necessarily proof of innocence.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:01 am

USADA lists them as having failed a doping test or being sanctioned for avoiding one. I am not making any judgements about the athletes on the list.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:21 am

You labeled them as DOPERs, that is your term. You should go back and rephrase what you wrote or take the heat for having tarred (and feather) people's reputations unnecessarily and without good reason. Another case of 'doping' is Capel's use of marijuana -- now that really is a performance enhancing drug that is (or was reported here to be) on the list to get political funding for the ADAs, particularly the USADA. So, knowing who is coach is etc. would provide misleading information. If you cannot pull out the ones that were using PEDs from the ones that were not, then you have 'research' which is worth less than nothing.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby Tuariki » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:32 pm

MJR wrote:USADA lists them as having failed a doping test or being sanctioned for avoiding one. I am not making any judgements about the athletes on the list.

Especially given the nature of this forum, your whole introduction is about making a judgement.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:35 pm

USADA labels them as dopers, as they have committed doping violations. I am using the terminology from usantidpoing.org.

Individual Athlete Test History
This search includes all in- and out-of-competition tests on U.S. athletes conducted under USADA's Olympic, Paralympic and Pan American movements testing program. This search will also include tests conducted on U.S. athletes training internationally by other testing entities when the request for the test was made by USADA. This search will not yield results conducted on U.S. athletes by other testing entities, if the test was not requested or initiated by USADA, or tests conducted by USADA at the request of other sport organizations, events, international federations or individuals. Because of these exclusions, the total numbers below are less than the numbers reported as USADA's total testing numbers located here. This resource is intended to be used to determine the number of times USADA has organized a test on an individual athlete and is not an accurate representation of USADA's total testing numbers or the total number of anti-doping tests an athlete will undergo by other and all testing and sport organizations. For USADA total testing numbers, please click here. For questions or clarification please contact USADA's communication department at 719-785-2046 or 719-785-2047.

Rule Violation Statistics (are classified using the following terms)

Doping Violations
Whereabouts Failure-Filing Failure
Whereabouts Failure-Missed Test

==
Get over yourself.
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Re: Doper Coaches & Clubs/Team

Postby MJR » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:38 pm

Tuariki wrote:
MJR wrote:USADA lists them as having failed a doping test or being sanctioned for avoiding one. I am not making any judgements about the athletes on the list.

Especially given the nature of this forum, your whole introduction is about making a judgement.



I have simply asked for information. Everyone else here is making assumptions and drawing their own preconceived conclusions based upon their own ignorance of the issue and my reasons for collecting this information. If you have nothing of concrete value within this simple request, please go take you judgements to one of the 10 thousand other discussions on the boards here because your comments are baseless.
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