Didn't Marion Jones run/jump her PR's before taking drugs?


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Postby paulthefan » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:35 pm

gh wrote:
paulthefan wrote:It is impossible for an athlete to get a PR while proved to be on peds.


Oh, if only somebody had explained that to Ben Johnson he could have used it as a defense! C'mon, get real.


I think I can help. My comment was tongue in cheek. The record books do not show Ben Johnson as having the PR of 9.79 he "recorded" in Seoul. Today even on this board someone might post a thread about PR's that Ben ran before he tested positive and build a case for Ben's very elite sprint status just as this one does for Marion and just as a recent one did for Jordan Vaden's 19.98 at the USATF.
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Postby ed gee » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:08 am

It was the ´95 version of USATF and I agree with the assessment of her appearing tubby. She was a different athlete by Indy '97.

tandfman wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento).

The NCAA Championships have never been in Fresno and I believe the first time they were in Sacramento was 2003. long after Jones was a collegian. So I'm afraid you've forgotten what you thought you'd never forget. :(
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Postby mrbowie » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:25 pm

I have finally reached senility.

I knew it would come, but I never suspected it had already arrived!
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:03 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:at this point, long string of unacceptable posts removed by mods.... this forum does not tolerate idle drug speculation about people who have never tested positive.

Long string of unacceptable posts? Huh? :? Would you at least say who the guilty people are, because if I'm one of them, I would like to apologize since it was never my intention to violate the forum rules.


I think he might be referring to a section in my post; specifically, the following:

...That is, unless Trevor Graham spills all the beans on his entire program in the years 1997 to 1999, or Marion herself finally comes to realize that she can't run or hide from herself anymore, and tells everything that went on in those 3 seasons, without sugar-coating a thing.

I doubt it, though. For one, she wasn't the only one who might have been dirty during that period. For another, she can't afford it, because all the money she made between June, 1997 and August, 2000, is gone. She has nothing to give back if she is stripped of her 1997-99 seasons


When I say that she wasn't the only one who might have been dirty during the period (that is, 1997-99), that isn't exactly pure speculation. Did I miss something, or did Antonio Pettigrew confess to having been dirty in 1997, for which USATF and USADA disregarded the 8-year statute of limitations (it was 11 years before he sang) and swept aside his stats for that year?
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Postby fez » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:06 pm

Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:30 pm

paulthefan wrote:
gh wrote:
paulthefan wrote:It is impossible for an athlete to get a PR while proved to be on peds.


Oh, if only somebody had explained that to Ben Johnson he could have used it as a defense! C'mon, get real.


I think I can help. My comment was tongue in cheek. The record books do not show Ben Johnson as having the PR of 9.79 he "recorded" in Seoul. Today even on this board someone might post a thread about PR's that Ben ran before he tested positive and build a case for Ben's very elite sprint status just as this one does for Marion and just as a recent one did for Jordan Vaden's 19.98 at the USATF.

Didn't Ben confess? I thought I heard either him or Charlie Francis confessing to having put him on a drug program that went as far back as 1981. Certainly, the effects kicked in at around 1985, when he ran 9.98.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:32 pm

fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:35 pm

mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento). I couldn't believe my eyes, because she looked so downright tubby.

I saw her coach leaning against a chain-link fence, so I walked up, introduced myself as a fan that had seen her in action since she was an early teenager in California. I told him what I saw and asked what kind of shape she was in.

He said she was in basketball but not track shape.

When she reappeared, it was hard to believe that she was the same person.

If I had not seen all this with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it if somebody just told it to me.

One other thing: what kind of sick mind does it take to do what she did and flash that exuberant smile that captivated a nation? She should have been hanging her head in shame.

To hell with Marion Jones and her ilk. Our sport is a all the better for having gotten rid of them.

What year was this? I don't think she ran on the elite level at all in the years 1994-96. Now, 1997 is probably a different story. As I remember it, she went straight to the pros in track after basketball season was over.
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Postby Daisy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:57 pm

fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.


More to the point are we naive to think that drugs are not a problem in HS, especially now that the NBA is recruiting directly from high schools? There are a lot of good reason to gain an edge even at that stage of their careers.

Just did a quick search for any articles on this topic and came up with the following stat:
New Jersey, Florida, Texas and Illinois have tried steroid testing since 2006, and an examination of the results by The Associated Press shows that only 18 tests out of 30,799 have come back positive.
Source

This suggests using PED's is pretty low in high schools. Or should I say, it is when there is a drug testing program in place. Having said this, I'm not sure if these are random tests or competition tests. I assume it would be relatively easy to be clear of steroids before a competition.
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Postby lovetorun » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:20 pm

This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.
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Postby Daisy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:50 pm

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think she could have been.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:10 pm

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think the original question was, "Didn't MJ run/junp her PRs before she got dirty?" The answer to that is, we simply don't know...yet. But the consensus here is that, since 6 years of performances, going back to Sydney 2000 and ending in August, 2006 (the last time she ran) were wiped from the books, it is highly probable that she was dirty in 1998, when she set those PRs. Like so many from the GDR, the USSR and China, there is no individual evidence (that is, evidence pertaining to any specific athlete), unless I missed a documentary regarding Communist-bloc athletics. As a result, like Koch's 47.60 and Kratochvílová's 1:53.28 (both of which are suspicious to many), MJ's marks before Sydney stay in the record books.
Last edited by CookyMonzta on Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fez » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:12 pm

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.


Nope
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Postby fez » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:17 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?


I'm already pretty sure the missed test is true. I want to know if the Johnnie Cochran part is true?

Can't beat that Chewbacca defense
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Postby mrbowie » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:40 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento). I couldn't believe my eyes, because she looked so downright tubby.

I saw her coach leaning against a chain-link fence, so I walked up, introduced myself as a fan that had seen her in action since she was an early teenager in California. I told him what I saw and asked what kind of shape she was in.

He said she was in basketball but not track shape.

When she reappeared, it was hard to believe that she was the same person.

If I had not seen all this with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it if somebody just told it to me.

One other thing: what kind of sick mind does it take to do what she did and flash that exuberant smile that captivated a nation? She should have been hanging her head in shame.

To hell with Marion Jones and her ilk. Our sport is a all the better for having gotten rid of them.

What year was this? I don't think she ran on the elite level at all in the years 1994-96. Now, 1997 is probably a different story. As I remember it, she went straight to the pros in track after basketball season was over.


Well, she long jumped, I don't think she ran. I would almost swear the meet was either in San Jose or Fresno and that it was a college meet, because she wore the baby blue singlet of North Carolina and I spoke with her college coach.
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Postby 26mi235 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:47 pm

fez wrote:
CookyMonzta wrote:
fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?


I'm already pretty sure the missed test is true. I want to know if the Johnnie Cochran part is true?

Can't beat that Chewbacca defense


I am pretty sure that the JC part is also true.
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Postby tandfman » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:47 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?

The missed test was not after a race; it was an out-of-competition test. IIRC, her defense was based on her not having received notice of the test.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:56 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:Didn't Ben confess? I thought I heard either him or Charlie Francis confessing to having put him on a drug program that went as far back as 1981. Certainly, the effects kicked in at around 1985, when he ran 9.98.


i've never heard of steroids taking 4y to work !?

how about he got an advantage within weeks of taking them - evidence being in '92 when he started taking them again & started running real quick in short period of time
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:18 am

Daisy wrote:
lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think she could have been.


She was already world class in high school. She ran 11.17 and 22.86 as a 15-year-old. One of the great sprint prodigies of all-time. (And no, I don't believe for a minute she was doping then and continued on for a dozen years at it.)
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Postby jhc68 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:26 am

Yeah, I saw her run when she was a 9th grader at Rio Mesa HS and we all knew she was something very special at first glance. I doubt she had the sophistication or the access to be using in high school. Still, as GH said, the question of when she started is unknowable. My impression is that she never really tested positive in formal tests, isn't that right? That presents a sort of dismal impression of the effectiveness of testing at that time. What a waste of time and money!
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:56 am

gh wrote:She was already world class in high school. She ran 11.17 and 22.86 as a 15-year-old. One of the great sprint prodigies of all-time. (And no, I don't believe for a minute she was doping then and continued on for a dozen years at it.)


unfortunately, big guy, you are pissing in the wind here - a handful believe it

if Tiger ever tested +ve for drugs ( e g steroids ), then you will get the yahoos around here stating, seriously, that Earl had him on 'roids when he was 2y ole on the mike douglas show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHkA_983_s

'roids don't just seem to cause issues with athletes, they appear to have a secondary effect often rendering posters delusional/moronic as well
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Postby lonewolf » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:25 am

We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling. Even her suppliers only know when they started supplying. As in other matters, they cannot know with absolute certainty that they were "the first"
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Postby AthleticsInBritain » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:43 pm

I don't know. It's really not nice to think about the possibility of a 15 year old doping is it? But then, I'm sure there have been cases of 14 and 15 year olds doping in other sports - i.e. gymnastics and swimming, so why not athletics?

Although in the case of gymnastics and swimming, people are competitive at the world level much earlier than in athletics.

If you're starting weights and training in a gym out of school here it wouldn't be hard to come across pro-steroid bodybuilders and gain access to drugs.

Like gh, I personally doubt MJ was doping in HS. After that I wouldn't care to say.
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Postby skiboo » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:21 pm

Marion clean when she set her PRs? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So were the East Germans.
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Postby skiboo » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:23 pm

lonewolf wrote:We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling.


We don't need her to tell. Common sense tells all anyone needs to know in this case. PUH-LEEEEZE!! What is truly shocking is that there are still people around naive and bored enough to speculate whether Marion's nonsense about being clean in 97 is not bullshit.

Image
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:42 pm

eh ?

to go from 11.14 as 17y ole to 10.76 over 5y later is as shocking as going from 11.3 to high-10.7 in 1y as an adult ???
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:11 pm

There was NOTHING in between those five years... not even hot air.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:31 pm

nonsense

she was working her way upto ~ og level 'ball in 4y

if you seriously believe that is "couch potatoing", & not having a building effect on the cardiovascular & musculoskeletal systems from an 11.14 base, it's about time to put down the smoked-herring bong

after you've done that, i'd like to hear why you were so conspicous in your absence on commenting on

going from 11.3 to high-10.7 in 1y as an adult ???
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:37 pm

skiboo wrote:
lonewolf wrote:We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling.


We don't need her to tell. Common sense tells all anyone needs to know in this case. PUH-LEEEEZE!! What is truly shocking is that there are still people around naive and bored enough to speculate whether Marion's nonsense about being clean in 97 is not bullshit.



I doubt she was, but after seeing what she was capable of as a high schooler, I think the door remains open to a (slim) chance that she was indeed still legal in '97. She was that impressive. I can think of few other high schoolers (in any event) that looked to have as much upside potential as she did.
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:41 pm

EPelle wrote:There was NOTHING in between those five years... not even hot air.


Not exactly true. She didn't do much sprinting (11.28/11.21w in '93, 11.40 in '94, 23.96w in '95) but jumped 22-½ (22-1¾w) in '93, PRed at 22-1¾ in '94 when she was NCAA runner-up, and did 21-9½ in '95 when she was NCAA runner-up.
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:13 pm

This I know (I listed it out on the drug board in 2006), and I was being more figurative than literal. She had no top-25 times in the 100m/200m following high school up to 1997.
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:15 pm

And she concentrated more on basketball than track and broke her foot twice, so a lack of track progress not entirely surprising.
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:27 pm

Solid points, but a rapid-fire acceleration into the pro ranks following a sustained absence from techincal races which require specific training - not just talent - can't be explained away by stating that Jones was once a superb talent; that talent well dried up some between her final year at Thousand Oaks and her time at NC.

No times of note during a period where she concentrated on basketboll following a prep campaign where she was also a two-sport star. Granted, NCAA comp required more from her in terms of strength, musclur build and schedule. Then she sustained a broken foot. Then a re-break four months later. From her final season to the track, it took only 13 weeks of dedication (?!) to not just break a long-standing PB, but to run three rounds at USA Champs under 11 seconds, nonetheless.

Unbelievable.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:30 pm

very important law of physics to consider here with weight/performances

losing blubber ( supposed overweight thru 'ball ) thru just pure aerobic training + dieting can improve performances by

ratio of masses^0.5

for sprinting & likely just the simple ratio for lj, as it helps in both run-up speed & less to carry in flight

she is listed as 150 in most sources in her prime ( the supposed "cut" of '97 athletics )

i'd imagine she was 155 - 160 at least to posters here claiming to have seen her in her 'ball days

her pbs in '92/'93 ( latter for lj ) :

11.14/22.58/6.71

just assuming no improvement in these as a blubbery 155 - 160 pounder, getting down to 150 woud improve those by

( 150/155 )^ 0.5 to ( 150/160 )^0.5 & just ratio for lj

so we are thinking from physics, an improvement to

10.79 - 10.96

21.87 - 22.21

6.93 - 7.15
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:33 pm

EPelle wrote:She had no top-25 times in the 100m/200m following high school up to 1997.


eh ?

how about

going from 11.3 to high-10.7 in 1y as an adult ???


where did 11.3+ place before going to high-10.7 ???
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Postby ed gee » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:42 pm

No.

She displayed her natural abilities the year she waddled a 55 second 400.

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:48 pm

gh,

Feel free to step in between eldy and Epelle before we have a hundred back-and-forths here . . .
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:57 pm

bad hammy wrote:gh,

Feel free to step in between eldy and Epelle before we have a hundred back-and-forths here . . .

? My only responses on this page have been directly to gh.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:00 pm

if you don't correct ignorance & stupidity, it festers...
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Postby AthleticsInBritain » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:11 pm

EPelle wrote:
bad hammy wrote:gh,

Feel free to step in between eldy and Epelle before we have a hundred back-and-forths here . . .

? My only responses on this page have been directly to gh.


That's how I read Epelle's responses too. He very admirably hasn't engaged the troll who's arse-achingly, heroin-junkie desperate to drag him into a pointless debate so as to get a fix from the adrenaline rush of trying to prove his is biggest. In fact, the poster in question will even get a perverse thrill from me describing said poster like this.

Said poster is becoming more and more desperate and I'm worried he'll implode for lack of a fix and to be honest, it's sucking the enjoyment and life out of too many threads at the moment.
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