Carl on Bolt...si.com


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Postby croflash » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:24 am

onlooker wrote:This guy Carl Lewis always rubs me the wrong way. I was wondering where he was all this time during the games. I just knew that he wouldn't have anything good to say about the Jamaicans acheivements, especially Bolt's.


Actually, he did say something good about the Jamaicans during the Olympics when he was a guest on German TV. This interview with SI sounds a lot different, but then again it is SI.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:06 am

Lewis was wrong about Jamaican testing. The Jamaicans are subject to random out of competition testing be the IAAF and the JAAA. The problem is that the the JAAA doesn't have an independent testing agency. He also talks about Bolt's 10.03 PR totally out of context as parkerrclay has already pointed out at the top of this page. Also, Lewis omitted Maurice Greene as one of those sub-9.80 guys.
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Postby euan Track Guru » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:26 am

tm71 wrote:so carl now is a hypocrite and a dunce ! what stupidity. most of you guys were proabably in diapers in 88 so you don't remember that carl was very suspicious about flo jo and her group during the trials and the olympics. even more so when flo jo retired in early 89, even before the season started, never running another race after the seoul olympics. edwin moses has spoken out on drug use and users, throughout the last 20 yrs, does that make him a hypocrite and a dunce too ?



Usain Bolt was also in diaper in 1988.


Carl lewis is using falacious reasoning. He draws illogical conclusions from false premises. An example of this type of reasoning based of Carl Lewis reasoning :

Look at these two scenarios below and if you are logical in your reasoning then you will realise that either (a) Carl Lewis cannot reason logically OR (b) The implied conclusion in scenario (2) is true based off carl lewis reasoning.

Scenario (1)
Explicit Statement from Carl Lewis reasoning:Veronica Campbell rank number one in the world over 100 meters did not make the Jamaica Olympics team in 2008 .
implied Concluison Based off Carl Lewis Reasoning: All the other female who beat her at the Jamaica trials in the 100 meters were doping.

Scenario (2)
Fact:Sanya richards (a jamaican by birth with steady traing in the US) rank number one in the world over 100 meters did not make the US world championship team in 2007

Implied Concluison Based off Carl Lewis Reasoning: All the other female who beat Sanya Richards (a genetically Gifted Jamaican by birth) at the US trials in the 400 meters were doping.

I could point out others but you analyze what "king Carl" he is saying and find them:

Bolt who was in diaper when Carl lewis was running has been faster than Carl lewis over 200 in all of these age group categories:

at 15 years old
at 16 years old
at 17 years old
at 18 years old
at 19 years old
at 20 years old
at 21 years old
at 22 years old

etc

In fact Usain Bolt from as early as a 17 year old kid has run faster times than what Carl lewis has ran over 200meters When carl Lewis was 21 years old.
Last edited by euan Track Guru on Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:19 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby Smoke » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:09 am

Carl strikes again.

He is FOS

What he said was hard to argue with.
Does not make it right.
He has done this at every improvement and to every sprint star since Ben.
The problem is not this singular interview or him giving his opinion. It is the consistency with which he runs down those better than him.
Notice how he explains away the suspicions on him and his 1988 issues, yet holds all those that have run 9.80 and faster to a strict definition.
He is bitter and has been since he was an athlete. And I was not in diapers, I was a Carl fan. I started hitch kicking in my long jump because I wamted t be like Carl. I could not stand Mike Powell because he broke the record I was just waiting for Carl to take. Now Mike is one of my good friends. Funny what you learn as you get older.
The bigger problem is that Carl is the most recognizable figures in the world and represents track and field to the world, even still. Yet you are hard pressed to find him propping the sport at any point in his life. He believes because he ran fast and jumped far that he did enough for us. Carl has accused MJ, thus the row between Carol and Carl and MJ back in the mid 90s. Everyone remembers MJs comments in 1995 lol.
Carl did leave the sport, and when asked he admitted numerous times it was because he was disillusioned (bitter).
Some of you can try and explain awat this recent article but those of us who know the history are not accepting his recent, bitter rant.
Oh, the Jamaicans are not tested as much as others with independent testing agencies. AND even if their numbers were equal, the lack of an independent agency is the problem. If it is a problem elsewhere then it is a problem in amaica too.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:27 am

euan Track Guru wrote:Scenario (2)
Fact:Sanya richards (a jamaican by birth with steady traing in the US) rank number one in the world over 100 meters did not make the US world championship team in 2007

Implied Concluison Based off Carl Lewis Reasoning: All the other female who beat Sanya Richards (a genetically Gifted Jamaican by birth) at the US trials in the 400 meters were doping


err...

he didn't mention sanya

probably because she ran 50.68 in that race

this is a gal who has run 48.7

he woud have to be a numbskull to use that as an example of 3 gals beating her that day being dopers

Bolt who was in diaper when Carl lewis was running has been faster than Carl lewis over 200 in all of these age group categories:

at 15 years old
at 16 years old
at 17 years old
at 18 years old
at 19 years old
at 20 years old
at 21 years old
at 22 years old

etc

In fact Usain Bolt from as early as a 17 year old kid has run faster times than what Carl lewis has ran over 200 meters When carl Lewis was 21 years old.


err...

he was doing lj most those early years & little/no 200s

how about redoing that list for bolt & his yearly lj from 15 -22y ?
Last edited by eldrick on Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:29 am

euan Track Guru wrote:Scenario (1)
Explicit Statement from Carl Lewis reasoning:Veronica Campbell rank number one in the world over 100 meters did not make the Jamaica Olympics team in 2008 .
implied Conclusion Based off Carl Lewis Reasoning: All the other female who beat her at the Jamaica trials in the 100 meters were doping.

Scenario (2)
Fact:Sanya Richards (a Jamaican by birth with steady training in the US) rank number one in the world over 100 meters did not make the US world championship team in 2007

Implied Conclusion Based off Carl Lewis Reasoning: All the other female who beat Sanya Richards (a genetically Gifted Jamaican by birth) at the US trials in the 400 meters were doping.

.

???
His implication is not that all of the others are doping but that some might be - there is a suspicious element.

Sanya was not the #1 ranked 100m runner; do you mean 400m?
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Postby Jaack » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:27 am

Douplé
Last edited by Jaack on Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:33 am

eldrick wrote:
err...

he was doing lj most those early years & little/no 200s

how about redoing that list for bolt & his yearly lj from 15 -22y ?



Eldy is a category 6 hurricane of T&F wisdom, a "oneman" veritable institution of higher T&F learning.
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Postby Jaack » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:35 am

Speaking of age lists, is there any place to find a comprehensive list of all-time age records?
Cheers
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Postby Jaack » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:47 am

In all honesty, can ANYONE see a motive for Carl's media rants beyond self obsession?

He doesn't care about the sport at all. It's not coming out of genuine concern for the good of the sport or athletes, he just wants to maintain his place as an all time great(est) and does this by doubting the performance(s) of anyone who threatens his achievements.

People trust him, and he is running down the credibility of the sport to the general public. Just when they find something that takes their interest. :?
Then he has the audacity to promote American drug testing and ergo American athletes (Which I guess includes himself), when...let's be honest, the big name take downs have been incredibly detrimental and most of which were caught through external tests/investigations.

It's not like his opinion is unique, many people feel the same way, fair enough. However, such protestations aren't even tolerated on a message board like this. Yet, Mr. Lewis feels it perfectly acceptable to vent his "concerns" to the public via an ever eager media that only report on T&F when the article can contain the word DRUGS?

He just seems really adamant on destroying the sports image.
After all the sport gave him!
I find it really sad
Last edited by Jaack on Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dakota » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:51 am

I particularly love the observation "that was an issue where people tried to make something out of nothing" as he tries to make something out of nothing about an athlete who unlike him has never failed a drugs test.
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Postby George P. » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:59 am

So, you work for a Big Media outfit with a mission to attract readers and eyeballs. To this end, you need to shake up the joint -- to startle the children and frighten the horses. No natch’ you hunt up Carl Lewis, dependable old Carl. And, sho’ nuff! You get a few provocative quotes that might be enough to get you that pay raise you’ve been badgering your boss about, especially now that gas is approaching $5.
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Postby kamikaze7 » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:06 am

Was'nt King Carl once busted for dope and only saved by a massive USATF cover up ?
A classic case of the pot and the kettle this is
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Postby scoe » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:16 am

Indeed he was

Read Dave Wallechinsky's comments in the Book of the Summer Olympics.

1988 and CL should not have been there, but it was Olympic year and only winning Goldies mattered to the USOC.

No out of season testing then, I believe. How fortunate for some. :roll: :roll:

Nasty hypocrite our Carl, some might consider. The extent to which he benefited is not the issue, but he got a slap on the wrist for breaking the rules.

Sort of don't do it again , you naughty boy.
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Postby cladthin » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:25 am

Can anyone recall who was implicated/mentioned by Cliff Wiley with respect to the 83 Helsinki worlds?

I believe something about a large list of positives somehow disappeared from a hotel safe.
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Postby rudeboy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:28 am

I would like for the IOC and other bodies to reveal all drug tests performed on Usain Bolt from September 2007 to present. They need to reveal dates and time of all tests. Also, they need to show the chart of the tests to reveal to the public any fluctuations in his blood profile.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:29 am

Carl tested +ve for 3 stimulants found in a cold remedy

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_onl ... /04/15/sc/

At the 1988 Olympic trials he tested positive three times for small amounts of banned stimulants found in cold medications: pseudoephedrine, ephedrine and phenylpropanolamine


2 of those stimulants are no longer on the prohibited list

http://www.canoeicf.com/site/canoeint/i ... ist_En.pdf

The following substances included in the 2008 Monitoring Program (bupropion, caffeine, phenylephrine, phenylpropanolamine, pipradol, pseudoephedrine, synephrine) are not considered as Prohibited Substances.


the third one, ephedrine, is not banned if used in small amounts ( amounts likely in doses of cold remedies )

Each of ephedrine and methylephedrine is prohibited when its concentration in urine is greater than 10 micrograms per milliliter.


if those tests were done not in '88 but today with 20y of more medical knowledge on doping ( & much greater emphasise on dope-testing ) he woud have almost certainly had no +ve test at all & therefore no story

posters shoud stop getting their knickers in a twist about his dope-tests - he almost certainly woudn't have had a +ve in this day & age under wada rules/list
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Postby az2004 » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:03 am

carl is such a whiner, just like his singing...

bolt doesn't need to protect himself from this innuendo ....

i'm sure bolt will see MORE off season testing this winter into spring, than he saw in the past...

if he suddenly becomes a 10 flat 20 flat sprinter, then we might want to look into things with a more questioning eye....

but as of now, bolt is clean
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Carl on Bolt ...si.com

Postby Frans Rutten » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:04 am

First my own opinion:
I probably saw all the 100m and 200m olympic finals live since 1964.
Except this year. I preferred to do my own cycling training on the road.
I did see what was coming especially in the 200m and didn't want to get embarassed. As I also was with Michael Johnson that day.
Athletics has been by far the most scrutinized important sport of all time.
And not only women's athletics in the so-called eighties.

I agree with Carl Lewis call for scrutiny of sprint sensation Usain Bolt , when it means that you cannot simply believe unconditionally such exploits anymore.

The progress of Usain Bolt and other Jamaican competitors is way out of line.
Only a.o. in line with the late Florence Griffith-Joyner, partly Ben Johnson and
as a cross-over Heike Drechsler, who as a 16 year old girl would have topped a bronze medal in Beijing not bothered by almost 30 years world athletic progress. And still made a progress of almost 2 feet in her career.
Virtual putting all her jumps beyond the gold medal mark in Beijing at a row it would have trailed the competition in Beijing half a day.
This is one of the most amazing records of all time what can be done!!!!

Unfortunately we have come to the point that (sudden) extreme good performances automatically have to be judged very cautiously.

The cryouts of those who hope that Usain Bolt is clean are IMO preposterous.
The famous saying Altius, Citius, Fortius has become a tainted one.

Human physical progress is subjected to certain physical and statistical laws.
Let's stick to that.

If I believe that Carl Lewis was clean all the time? Of cause not, but as Eddy Merckx in cycling was also not, both had a extreme good foundation which they build on for a long time. So they remain my all-time heroes.
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Re: Carl on Bolt...si.com

Postby bad hammy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:09 am

The moderators editing the initial post wrote:99% of post cut by mods; what is that some of you morons don't understand about copyright infringement?

Thanks for letting us know that we are all morons. That explains a lot . . .
Last edited by bad hammy on Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Carl on Bolt ...si.com

Postby Frans Rutten » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:11 am

Jaack wrote:Speaking of age lists, is there any place to find a comprehensive list of all-time age records?
Cheers


www.apulanta.fi/matti/yu/aars_Men.html
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Re: Carl on Bolt ...si.com

Postby LopenUupunut » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:29 am

Frans Rutten wrote:
Jaack wrote:Speaking of age lists, is there any place to find a comprehensive list of all-time age records?
Cheers


www.apulanta.fi/matti/yu/aars_Men.html

A site which, I see, has stolen from pela2 the amazing news that 50-year-old Gennadiy Valyukevich jumped 17.25 in Moscow this summer... mind you, pela2 has that as an ancillary jump, the supposedly even better mark is for some reason nowhere to be seen :wink:
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