more trouble in Russia


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Postby EPelle » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:16 am

Tiago wrote:
EPelle wrote:Alifirenko had apparently been absent due to what officials thought was trouble with his eyes. Little known to them, it was due to a doping bust.


They knew he was doped.......

They:d denied foreknowledge according to live sending on Perviy Kanal 1 last evening.
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Postby Tiago » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:40 am

Ok, Alifirenko case is not what can you call a doping case.

Sadly my english is not good to explain it..... :(

And again russian olympic comitee was aware of this situation.
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Postby peach » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:50 am

So Tamsyn Lewis has weighed in with comments about doping and the Australian team and other Australians seem to be denouncing her for doing so...

I don't understand why. I mean, I'm not saying Tamsyn Lewis would be an Olympic champion now if all the drugs were rooted out, but to be fair, if I were a clean athlete (which, of course, we can only assume she is), I'd be MIGHTILY pissed off by now...
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Postby peach » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:51 am

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Postby Daisy » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:01 am

peach wrote:So Tamsyn Lewis has weighed in with comments about doping and the Australian team and other Australians seem to be denouncing her for doing so...


Why are they denouncing her? It seems far less provocative than Paula Radcliffe holding up the "EPO cheats out" sign and most fans sympathized with her at the time.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:03 am

Yegorova was a live case... a real person. Lewis is simply muckraking.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:15 am

EPelle wrote:Yegorova was a live case... a real person. Lewis is simply muckraking.


Makes sense, I thought she was more specifically attacking Soboleva. I guess she is true to her media statements of the past re: Rawlinson and 4x400 fiasco.
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Postby peach » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:32 am

I think this is the thing...cause she is outspoken, they are going along the same old "Here goes Tamsyn again" line of thinking...though to be honest, I think she's absolutely got a point. Ok, it wasn't keeping her from an Olympic final but if I'd be pissed off if athletes ahead of me in major champs were testing positive...

The interesting point, is who did she think in the Olympic 800m final tested positive back in Sydney? Because I can't think of anyone from this list...

1. ML Mutola (Moz) 1:56.15
2. S Graf (Aut) 1:56.64
3. K Holmes (Gbr) 1:56.80
4. B Langerholc (Slo) 1:58.51
5. H Fuchsova (Cze) 1:58.56
6. Z Calatayud (Cub) 1:58.66
7. H Clark (USA) 1:58.75
8. HB Hassi (Mar) 1:59.27
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Postby peach » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:41 am

well of course, those are unsubstiantied rumours I couldn't possibly confirm or deny and I'm sure they'll be gone within a matter of moments but I repeat, Tamsyn Lewis stated in her interview she missed out on the final by 0.03 and found one of the girls "ahead of her" was on drugs.

As it was a fastest loser situation, that could mean any finalist, I guess, but still...
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Postby Matt » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:45 am

Didn't Hazel Clark have a warning for something or other? Pseudoephedrine? I can't say for sure.
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Postby lapsus » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:04 am

EPelle wrote:
Tiago wrote:
EPelle wrote:Alifirenko had apparently been absent due to what officials thought was trouble with his eyes. Little known to them, it was due to a doping bust.


They knew he was doped.......

They:d denied foreknowledge according to live sending on Perviy Kanal 1 last evening.


If the doping bust really was because of a drug used to treat his eye trouble, it doesn't seem like this case is related to the others. I wouldn't use Alifirenko as proof of systematic doping.

The other cases, however...
:(
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Postby Tiago » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:24 am

lapsus wrote:
EPelle wrote:
Tiago wrote:
EPelle wrote:Alifirenko had apparently been absent due to what officials thought was trouble with his eyes. Little known to them, it was due to a doping bust.


They knew he was doped.......

They:d denied foreknowledge according to live sending on Perviy Kanal 1 last evening.


If the doping bust really was because of a drug used to treat his eye trouble, it doesn't seem like this case is related to the others. I wouldn't use Alifirenko as proof of systematic doping.

The other cases, however...
:(


What cases?i only see athletics. :? ....Gusev run for Astana,case closed.
Alifirenko have the eye injurie to justify the use of the drug but and as far i remember this is the first time a russian shooter is tested positive.

Btw,Hardy has tested positive,so is the all usa swimming team doped? :?


Russia have a problem with the athletics,the rest are normal doping cases as in any other countrie.
Last edited by Tiago on Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby gh » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:25 am

Matt wrote:Didn't Hazel Clark have a warning for something or other? Pseudoephedrine? I can't say for sure.


Yes, pseudo, which has subsequently been removed from the banned list (common in cold medications like Sudafed). Came off at the same time caffeine did.

Any lumping of people who fell afoul of cold-medication rules (before the WADAs got their heads together) with true druggies is very unfair.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:28 am

Your english isn:t so bad that you were able to veer back on course following the admonishment you were earlier provided. Why you:ve gone back down this route again is known only to you.

ti hoces stobi tebia ot siuda vignali?
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Postby Jon » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:31 am

peach wrote:who did she think in the Olympic 800m final tested positive back in Sydney? Because I can't think of anyone from this list...

1. ML Mutola (Moz) 1:56.15
2. S Graf (Aut) 1:56.64
3. K Holmes (Gbr) 1:56.80
4. B Langerholc (Slo) 1:58.51
5. H Fuchsova (Cze) 1:58.56
6. Z Calatayud (Cub) 1:58.66
7. H Clark (USA) 1:58.75
8. HB Hassi (Mar) 1:59.27
She may have been referring to Graf. She never tested positive, but many of her training partners have done (Ceplak, Pumper, etc). She's like the Shawn Crawford of the women's 800m :D
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Postby gh » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:43 am

Flumpy & peach, with their latest (now excised) posts have confirmed that they don't want abide by the rules of the Board, so they have won a free one-week vacation away from the wars here.
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Postby lapsus » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:06 am

Tiago wrote:
What cases?i only see athletics. :? ....Gusev run for Astana,case closed.
Alifirenko have the eye injurie to justify the use of the drug but and as far i remember this is the first time a russian shooter is tested positive.

Btw,Hardy has tested positive,so is the all usa swimming team doped? :?


Russia have a problem with the athletics,the rest are normal doping cases as in any other countrie.


I should have been more specific: I meant the 7 women athletes (+ the 3 walkers). The nature of the first bust was unusual in that they didn't all seem to be part of the same training group.

I don't mean it is state-sponsored doping; I don't want to kick Russia out of the games. But I would like to see some serious investigation of non-athletes involved in this. Reassign them to Siberia or something...
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Postby EPelle » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:16 am

Siberia produces the Sharapova-types in the world ;-)
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Postby Matt » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:13 am

Jon wrote:
peach wrote:who did she think in the Olympic 800m final tested positive back in Sydney? Because I can't think of anyone from this list...

1. ML Mutola (Moz) 1:56.15
2. S Graf (Aut) 1:56.64
3. K Holmes (Gbr) 1:56.80
4. B Langerholc (Slo) 1:58.51
5. H Fuchsova (Cze) 1:58.56
6. Z Calatayud (Cub) 1:58.66
7. H Clark (USA) 1:58.75
8. HB Hassi (Mar) 1:59.27
She may have been referring to Graf. She never tested positive, but many of her training partners have done (Ceplak, Pumper, etc). She's like the Shawn Crawford of the women's 800m :D


I've just had a disastrous morning. I stepped on a piece of glass in my kitchen and - guess what? My entire career is over. :P
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Postby Jon » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:29 am

I hate when that happens... :P
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Postby Tiago » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:32 am

lapsus wrote:
Tiago wrote:
What cases?i only see athletics. :? ....Gusev run for Astana,case closed.
Alifirenko have the eye injurie to justify the use of the drug but and as far i remember this is the first time a russian shooter is tested positive.

Btw,Hardy has tested positive,so is the all usa swimming team doped? :?


Russia have a problem with the athletics,the rest are normal doping cases as in any other countrie.


I should have been more specific: I meant the 7 women athletes (+ the 3 walkers). The nature of the first bust was unusual in that they didn't all seem to be part of the same training group.

I don't mean it is state-sponsored doping; I don't want to kick Russia out of the games. But I would like to see some serious investigation of non-athletes involved in this. Reassign them to Siberia or something...


It is a athletics problem.

Ok,you have doping cases in Weightlifting but no one is clear there as in cyclism.

As for the athletics this is my opinion:

In the runners only borzakovsky seems clean,the female better not to talk.
Jumpers,they are all clean
Throwers,well the hammer top throwers were all suspende so it is a doping system there,the discus the same thing.
Race walkers,Nizhegorodov and Kaniskina are clean and only they can lose the gold medal.

So

Borzakovsky
Slinov
Rybakov
Lukyanenko
Nizhegorodov
Lebedeva
Isynbayeva
Slesarenko
Kaniskina

9 clean medals...then of course comes Sadova,Samitova,Petrova,Andrianova.

15-20 medals for russia in the end,it couyld be 30 at full squad. :(


Wrestling realy needs to come big as boxing to top the medal table. :D

Ah,and female weighlifting. 8-) :lol:
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Postby EPelle » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:35 am

gosh, I:ll have to repeat myself:

ti hoces stobi tebia ot siuda vignali?
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Postby elcaballo » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:55 am

gh wrote:
Matt wrote:Didn't Hazel Clark have a warning for something or other? Pseudoephedrine? I can't say for sure.


Yes, pseudo, which has subsequently been removed from the banned list (common in cold medications like Sudafed). Came off at the same time caffeine did.

Any lumping of people who fell afoul of cold-medication rules (before the WADAs got their heads together) with true druggies is very unfair.


Whilst that's true to an extent, everyone knew it was banned and that it was common in cold medications so it was pretty dumb to be taking it during competiition. I also know of plenty of athletes that used it to pep themselves up for training sessions out of season (when it wasn't tested for), was supposed to speed up metabolism as well to help with gettting rid of body fat.

The ones I truly feel sorry for are guys like john capel that have been done for the performance enhancing wonder drug, cannabis.
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Postby croflash » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:03 am

The next one...

RUSSIA'S 3000m steeplechaser Roman Usov has been kicked out of the Olympic team after failing a drugs test.

The 30-year-old tested positive for the banned subtance Carphedon at the national championships at Kazan last month where he finished second, local press reported.

Russian Athletics Federation officials refused to comment before Usov's B sample had been tested but confirmed he was expelled from the Olympic squad.


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/be ... 97,00.html
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:50 am

Yeah,the russian media confirm this.

What a disgrace,11 positive cases in the last week. :lol:
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Postby MJR » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:07 am

Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
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Postby Daisy » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:08 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less.


Really? The whole team, or just one sport from a team?
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:14 am

Daisy wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less.


Really? The whole team, or just one sport from a team?


He said teams, not countries; I interpret teams as sports within a country. Several wrestling and/or weight lifting teams have gotten into trouble, if I recall correctly. I cannot remember if they were not allowed or if they were actually kicked out during the Games.
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:20 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:22 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?



The 11 athletes were doped they were suspended or disqualified.....they didn't went to Beijing.

What is the big deal? :?

If any Russia is doped in Beijing he will be caught.

Now a all team suspended?for what?
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:26 am

Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.
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Postby lalala » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:32 am

Of course they should kick the whole team off...11 athletes in a week ? This is getting farcical...
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:32 am

Tiago wrote:[

If any Russia is doped in Beijing he will be caught.

:
If you believe that, you are an IDIOT! How many Olympic champions have been doped and provided a clean drugs test? Dozens upon dozens!
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 am

Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:41 am

|
Last edited by EPelle on Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:41 am

Jaack wrote:
Tiago wrote:[

If any Russia is doped in Beijing he will be caught.

:
If you believe that, you are an IDIOT! How many Olympic champions have been doped and provided a clean drugs test? Dozens upon dozens!


So what's the fuss about Russia?....well they are been caught no?usov was test in the russian champ not by a iaaf investigation.

Let face it,Athletics is as doped as Cyclism or Swimming.

No one is clean.....good for the chinese that they suck in Athletics..
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:45 am

26mi235 wrote:
Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.


It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.
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Postby MJR » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:48 am

Tiago wrote:It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


then just kick out all the individuals that wear the russian uniform :twisted:
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:52 am

MJR wrote:
Tiago wrote:It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


then just kick out all the individuals that wear the russian uniform :twisted:


Like someone said in a russia forum

So what?we have ten doping cases,let it be....
I prefer to win a gold medal with 20 athletes doped,then all team clean and zero medals.

This summarize the situation,case closed. :)
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:58 am

Tiago wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.


It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


I just gave you a reason for kicking the team off. The sport is not run as 20000 different groups, one for each athlete. There is a federation at the top and if it looks like there is organized doping or lack of systematic attempt to stop dopping, and Russia fits some of the characteristics, like requiring a Visa, then the federation is responsible. Kicking out only those that test positive when they are not doing their job adequately is rewarding those that have the power and resources to do the job.
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