SOBOLEVA OUT OF BEIJING


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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:58 am

Wonder if they'll get DQ'ed from Osaka results?

That would mean Barrios would get silver and Grasu move up to bronze in the DT and Lishchynska up to silver and Yordanova bronze in the 1500m.

Not sure I'm particularly comfortable with all of those changes!
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:01 am

mark wrote:Lesson to be learnt, doping transcends beauty.


??? Trumps ???

Image
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:01 am

Stephen wrote:Wonder if they'll get DQ'ed from Osaka results?

That would mean Barrios would get silver and Grasu move up to bronze in the DT and Lishchynska up to silver and Yordanova bronze in the 1500m.

Not sure I'm particularly comfortable with all of those changes!


As long as you're comfortable with one of those changes everything's OK with me!
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 am

Mark, I think we can safely say our sport is probably as dirty as it ever was.

The top US sprinters all going down (Gatlin, Montgomery, Jones, Gaines, White etc) these Russian positives, the revelation that Nesterenko failed a test years ago, all the come backs from throwers that have failed tests (Sadova, Fazekas etc)...not to mention random 'juniors' lighting up the tracks from outta nowhere, lack of testing in the caribbean....

:cry:
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 am

I was really looking forward to seeing Sobo-Jelimo and hearing the Agogô heralding the bell lap:

Image

Now the only thing being heralded is yet another [shocking, duh] doping revelation. I guess that leaves Pamela on-'er-own-a.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:11 am

peach wrote:
Jon wrote:No way, I never trusted Pishchalnikova!
Me neither - the deep grunt she let out when she threw, her facial acne, and rapid progression were all small hints :)


I agree with you on the first two, but the latter isn't too much of an issue- rapid progression at a young age isn't really that much of a giveaway and she's still only 23...[/quote]

I thought she was the first exciting new talent in a long time in an event which has been pretty much dead in recent years. I don't like the idea of the event being dominated by women in their late 30s and even 40s.
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Postby Jacksf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:15 am

mark wrote:


Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!


Surely you don't mean Kelly Holmes, who found the form of her life at the age of 34?!
and then retired?!
Please!!!
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:17 am

Jacksf wrote:
mark wrote:


Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!


Surely you don't mean Kelly Holmes, who found the form of her life at the age of 34?!
and then retired?!
Please!!!


:roll: That's utter crap.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:20 am

Powell wrote: I thought she was the first exciting new talent in a long time in an event which has been pretty much dead in recent years. I don't like the idea of the event being dominated by women in their late 30s and even 40s.


TBH I never thought she was a natural exciting talent, but exciting talent, yes.

The event does lend itself to older competitors: the years of competitive experience, the polished technique, the kind of strength needed not being the same as some of the more dynamic events etc.... but I agree, I dont like the fact that most of the throws are dominated by older athletes, and ones who have failed tests at some point in their career too!

Earlier this year I read that Dietzsh's coach was being hounded by the DLV, and there were suggestions that he wouldnt be allowed to travel with the official team to Beijing, because of past 'misdemours'. Franka flatly refused to go to the Games if her coach wasnt there too. The DLV then automatically selected her Beijing, but she subsequently pulled out because of 'lack of form'. I did wonder if it had anything to do with her coach being pursued....2 + 2 doesnt always make 4, and I do like Franka, but it did leave a slightly bitter taste in my mouth, and we all know about guilt by association.
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Postby mark » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:20 am

Stephen, call me optimistic I hope this may be a turning point, I really do. So many years I have been waiting for something big to happen out East, too many too good athletes in concentration of female events. Basic steroids have become too primitive and easy to spot.

Whatever we eventually learn (and that will probably be very little) about the regimes used by these offenders will probably show that there will always be something now that the labs will churn out. However, what we also see is the international federation starting to work off hunches and track suspicious athletes. It somewhat offends my ideologies, but I have to confess to a sentiment of its about time!
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:21 am

Jacksf wrote:
mark wrote:


Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!


Surely you don't mean Kelly Holmes, who found the form of her life at the age of 34?!
and then retired?!
Please!!!


Uh uh. I hate Kelly Holmes more than anyone on this forum (at the moment because she is a dame before Daley Thompson was knighted - he still hasn't) and even I would never accuse her of taking drugs, nor Mutola whom I was also not a fan of for years (until idiots on the BBC forum thought Kelly was better than her simply because of her second Olympic gold...)
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:24 am

Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?

I thought Semenova was a big talent, but then it looked like she would really stagnate, she dropped behind the Serb Tomasevic, but she improved this year, maybe she'll get on the rostrum (with the Serb too?)
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Postby Jacksf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:27 am

You all are looking back at the records of these Russian girls and saying that you always suspected them based on their records and their age.
And then you want to hold up Kelly Holmes as an example of someone who doesn't fit this pattern. But she does fit this pattern.
Whether she took PEDs or not - obviously I don't know!
But I don't see how you can hold her up as a shining example when her record is similar to some of these Russian women.
I would certainly pick someone else to represent all that is good in women's distance running.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:30 am

mark wrote: However, what we also see is the international federation starting to work off hunches and track suspicious athletes. It somewhat offends my ideologies, but I have to confess to a sentiment of its about time!


I agree. The whole 'target testing' goes against the idea that athletes samples are supposed to be anonymous, but that code of anonymity gets broken this way.
However, the IAAF have always had profiles of athletes and always target tested. I remember reading way back how they targetted certain athletes in certain events in Seoul, to create a genetic profile, and that they were particularly interested in a number of women in the 100m!

My big concern is that they have to ensure they test a variety of countries, and approach it fairly. Any country where thee are obstacles in getting visas etc, should be targetted all the more IMO, I wouldnt want athletes in China, Belarus, Cuba for example, getting away with things just because it's easier to target athletes who compete on the circuit more.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:31 am

Stephen wrote:
Powell wrote: I thought she was the first exciting new talent in a long time in an event which has been pretty much dead in recent years. I don't like the idea of the event being dominated by women in their late 30s and even 40s.


The event does lend itself to older competitors: the years of competitive experience, the polished technique, the kind of strength needed not being the same as some of the more dynamic events etc....


But not to that extent! In the men's throws you have mostly guys in their late 20s/ early 30s dominating. Women's SP was just as bad a few years ago, but in the last seasons, new talent has finally emerged. I still say there's something very wrong with the state of an event in which multiple 40-year olds are world beaters.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:32 am

Jacksf wrote: I would certainly pick someone else to represent all that is good in women's distance running.


I agree. Olizarenko, Grau-Wodars or Ivan :D
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:37 am

andyjgt wrote:Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?


Good question :? She did pick up a hand injury last year, but why she's still throwing well below potential this year, I don't know. After 2006, I thought she would soon become a medal contender for the years to come.

andyjgt wrote:I thought Semenova was a big talent, but then it looked like she would really stagnate, she dropped behind the Serb Tomasevic, but she improved this year, maybe she'll get on the rostrum (with the Serb too?)


There's also Yarelis Barrios, who is just 25 and has a better chance than the two you mentioned, but still, the top 2 favorites are both 36 years old. Not to mention Yatchenko and Zvereva, who are nearing the statutory retirement age and are still throwing at world-class levels.
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:39 am

Hey at least Liliya Shish-kebob-ukhova isn't toast! We might get one good Africa-Russia race in Big Jing.
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:39 am

Powell wrote:
andyjgt wrote:Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?


There's also Yarelis Barrios, who is just 25 and has a better chance than the two you mentioned, but still, the top 2 favorites are both 36 years old. Not to mention Yatchenko and Zvereva, who are nearing the statutory retirement age and are still throwing at world-class levels.


I think Silhava should make a comeback :wink:
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:40 am

Mennisco wrote:Hey at least Liliya Shish-kebob-ukhova isn't toast! We might get one good Africa-Russia race in Big Jing.


Unless the Chinese come out and run sub-14:00 :roll:
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:41 am

Powell wrote:
Mennisco wrote:Hey at least Liliya Shish-kebob-ukhova isn't toast! We might get one good Africa-Russia race in Big Jing.


Unless the Chinese come out and run sub-14:00 :roll:


In that case we can help them with their hair and fashion problems.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:42 am

nevetsllim wrote:I think Silhava should make a comeback :wink:


She did throw 64 meters at 45 years of age, so why not? She's still only 54 :twisted:
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Postby trackhead » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:45 am

Stephen wrote:Mark, I think we can safely say our sport is probably as dirty as it ever was.

The top US sprinters all going down (Gatlin, Montgomery, Jones, Gaines, White etc) these Russian positives, the revelation that Nesterenko failed a test years ago, all the come backs from throwers that have failed tests (Sadova, Fazekas etc)...not to mention random 'juniors' lighting up the tracks from outta nowhere, lack of testing in the caribbean....

:cry:


Which of those American busts is recent? Gatlin is the only one that was apart of this generation of sprinters. And given his coach...
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Postby BruceFlorman » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:48 am

trackhead wrote:
Stephen wrote:Mark, I think we can safely say our sport is probably as dirty as it ever was.

The top US sprinters all going down (Gatlin, Montgomery, Jones, Gaines, White etc) these Russian positives, the revelation that Nesterenko failed a test years ago, all the come backs from throwers that have failed tests (Sadova, Fazekas etc)...not to mention random 'juniors' lighting up the tracks from outta nowhere, lack of testing in the caribbean....
:cry:

Which of those American busts is recent? Gatlin is the only one that was apart of this generation of sprinters. And given his coach...

Yeah, no current coach would be dumb enough to send a vial of the latest-and-greatest stuff in to the authorities. :roll:
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:53 am

nevetsllim wrote:
Powell wrote:
andyjgt wrote:Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?


There's also Yarelis Barrios, who is just 25 and has a better chance than the two you mentioned, but still, the top 2 favorites are both 36 years old. Not to mention Yatchenko and Zvereva, who are nearing the statutory retirement age and are still throwing at world-class levels.


I think Silhava should make a comeback :wink:


Wyludda deffo should - she's not even 40!
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Postby croflash » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:56 am

This thread is getting way out of hand. The amount of pointing at others or entire nations isn't fair, most nations have a rich history of doping. It's pure speculation based on performances, looks, behavior, developments, improve rates and origin.
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Postby #6 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:56 am

peach wrote:I wondered earlier if it meant that it was clear that, say, the samples from Soboleva were all from different people...

So the DNA didn't match between the three urine samples taken at different times...



from the Russian article seems (if i underastand correctly) that the DNA from the first test (april-may 2007) didn't match the third test (last week NC)
it says nothing about the second test (Osaka).. so was all fine there?

it would be interesting to know which test has been faked then..the 1st or the 3rd?

and again how 7 athletes have managed to substitute the urine samples in front of the wada officiers.. :roll:
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Postby gh » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:01 am

croflash wrote:This thread is getting way out of hand. The amount of pointing at others or entire nations isn't fair, most nations have a rich history of doping. It's pure speculation based on performances, looks, behavior, developments, improve rates and origin.


And there are several people who obviously didn't read my earlier stricture regards this thread being about the 7 known positives. Period. Next offender in this regard is gone. Instantly.
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Postby Jon » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:15 am

Jacksf wrote:You all are looking back at the records of these Russian girls and saying that you always suspected them based on their records and their age. And then you want to hold up Kelly Holmes as an example of someone who doesn't fit this pattern. But she does fit this pattern. But I don't see how you can hold her up as a shining example when her record is similar to some of these Russian women.
The main difference being that she comes from a nation that actually does regular out-of-competition testing and that she was not part of an organised doping regime.
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Postby mark » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:15 am

The official response pretty much says it all,

"This IAAF decision dashes our athletes' hopes to perform at Beijing," Valentin Balakhnichev, head of the Russian federation, was cited as saying by Agence France-Presse.

One further observation; did Yegorova even participate in Kazan ? If not, and I don't recall her running, this adds another layer of intrigue to proceedings.
Last edited by mark on Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:17 am

gh wrote: Next offender in this regard is gone. Instantly.


Next thing you know someone will sue you for obstructing a lively 'hood. They could always have dems elves declared legally insane.

:wink:
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Postby richxx87 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:22 am

It's all an American conspiracy, engineered by Dick Cheney no doubt, to ensure that the American gal, Rowbury, wins a medal.
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Postby gh » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:24 am

From an e-mail:

<<In the future, races should be run on tracks designed in a double helix,
in honor of the molecular biology techniques used in flushing out the
miscreants in the sport.>>
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:28 am

Soboleva says that this (news of having been accused of broken anti-doping rules) happened suddenly, and only in a few hours after she:s had an opportunity to digest everything, will she have find it within herself to comment on anything (with the Russian Federation first).

http://www.sports.ru/olympics2008/5355158.html

Russia:s head trainer just stated on television that the athletes had all passed the same tests in 2005 and 2006. He is disgruntled that the IAAF has sprung this on them at the last minute. None of the athletes are appealing at this very instance. He speaks of the Russians being targeted by the IAAF, with the IAAF having an agenda to take out the Russians [at all costs]. He also wonders how the IAAF didn:t bust the athletes at any point but now.
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Postby richxx87 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:33 am

Okay, still trying to digest all this and the ramifications therein, but one question:

Since the top 3 Russian 1500 gals are now out, will they be allowed to move up their next three alternates for Beijing ... OR are they just out of luck, full stop?
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Postby odelltrclan » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:33 am

There are those stating that this is a black eye on the sport, and of course to some extent it is. To me it is an encouraging sign. Many of us believe there are many out there who are doping and are getting away with it. Certain countries don't do enough significant testing to combat this.

The encouraging sign in the long run is that the testing is getting better and better and one of these days rampant cheating will go away. Perhaps when a country is embarrased like this, as I am sure the Russians are right now, they will actually spend more time ensuring they are not embarrased in the future.
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Postby guru » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:33 am

EPelle wrote:Russia:s head trainer just stated on television that the athletes had all passed the same tests in 2005 and 2006. He is disgruntled that the IAAF has sprung this on them at the last minute.



LOL.

It's a whole new world now when it comes to the Good Guys it would seem. I wouldn't suggest we're ready to catch them all today, but when the cheaters are complaining it ain't fair because the tests are better then perhaps the tables are turning as to who's a step ahead.
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Postby peach » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:37 am

mark wrote:The official response pretty much says it all,

"This IAAF decision dashes our athletes' hopes to perform at Beijing," Valentin Balakhnichev, head of the Russian federation, was cited as saying by Agence France-Presse.


To be fair, that could just be a rubbish translation...
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Postby #6 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:38 am

Valentin Balahnichev interview (in Russian)
http://www.allsport.ru/index.php?id=16645
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Postby peach » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:39 am

EPelle wrote:
Russia:s head trainer just stated on television that the athletes had all passed the same tests in 2005 and 2006. He is disgruntled that the IAAF has sprung this on them at the last minute. None of the athletes are appealing at this very instance. He speaks of the Russians being targeted by the IAAF, with the IAAF having an agenda to take out the Russians [at all costs]. He also wonders how the IAAF didn:t bust the athletes at any point but now.


Well WHY are the Russians being targeted ? How the HELL can he moan when 7 athletes have just been discovered to have been tampering with urine tests ?

I can't say I'm happy with the timing either, I think that stinks, but come on.

The reaction from the "officials"in all of this is beginning to make me wonder a WHOLE lot more...
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