SOBOLEVA OUT OF BEIJING


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Postby Cindolo » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:56 am

And now Yegorova has been added to the list. Finally!
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Postby joeltetreault » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:56 am

Jaack wrote:I was just searching to see if they had the same coach...this absolutely STINKS of an organised doping system. :cry: Can we trust any of Russia's leading athletes?


As far as I know, the w800 and w1500 runners do not share the same coach, which makes this (to me) more surprising. I think EPelle best summarized my alarm above:

EPelle wrote:F-ing A, man.
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:58 am

Matt wrote:Sorry, gh.

Radcliffe and Tullett's protest in Edmonton was just, after all (not that anyone believed it wasn't).


Feel sorry for Tullett. Ayhan has been caught twice and now Tomashova is busted :(

Clitheroe and Pavey have been forced out of medals by suspected cheats as well :(
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Postby AthleticsInBritain » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:14 am

Sorry gh - gut reaction. Won't happen again.

I was wondering why now. Reading the IAAF statement, it does seem that it was a year long investigation into sample manipulation. The mechanics of the manipulation still confuse me though - one person's urine for everybody over a period of time? Still, it's better to come out now rather than in 2 weeks' time.
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Postby peach » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:24 am

I wondered earlier if it meant that it was clear that, say, the samples from Soboleva were all from different people...

So the DNA didn't match between the three urine samples taken at different times...
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Postby The Captain » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:28 am

and some Romanian 1500 runners (to add to Popescu)
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Olym ... 6720080731
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:39 am

Elena Iagar - what a surprise :roll:

Helen Clitheroe must be so pissed. Gold medallist Iagar (drugs), silver medallist Dumbravean (drugs) and bronze medallist Dehiba (drugs).
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Postby dupontred » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:42 am

Could be a dumb question, but is it too late for the Russian federatiaon to name new people, or bring in the alternates? Or you think the Russians will just not field anyone in those events?

Is there a cut off date of declared athletes for visas, etc?
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:49 am

nevetsllim wrote:

Still, I think there are more obvious Russians than these ones.


Well, to lighten up the day, we could go over to that other thread dealing with grammatical boners....

:wink:
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Postby mark » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:56 am

Hayley Tullett, world champion!!! No wonder she quit early, would be easy to be disillusioned, how would she have progressed in her career if she had been given the title we now know is her's.

Oh Tomashova, how I wanted you to be clean down the years as I came to respect your racing and consistency. How I tried to overlook that you were part of the Yego breakthrough and almost had a replica career. How happy I was to see you beat the odious Ayhan. I understand now their step down from 5k to 1500, once the EPO got caught they needed to find a new trick. So obvious, why didn't I see it.

Soboleva, where do we start. The innocent look and sob story. And that blonde hair, the beauty, it was so mcuh easier to condemn Yegorova who looked like a rat. Lesson to be learnt, doping transcends beauty.

There are clearly scores of others on their way down. Loads of them will tank in Beijing. It is no coincidence that those who have gone down are the frequent racers which has given IAAF the opportunity to track their samples. Look at A B C and D (names withdrawn) on the other hand who were out of the frame last year and so progressive analysis will have been pretty tough to implement.

There is only one way to deal with this! I know it will be harsh, but the entire Russian team needs to be thrown out of the Games. I don't think doping in blanket, Isinbeyeva is pretty much disassociated from the Russian regime, I pray for Lebedyeva. However doping is systemic in Russia, it transcends coaches, events and training groups and the only way to make the Federation do anything about it is to take strong affirmative action.

I think the best we can hope for is that we know every single Russian in Beijing is going to be tested and have their samples stored for good. I expect to see a book full of DNQs from all but their biggest stars.

GO IAAF - finally showing some teeth. Now get the E (name withdrawn) woman for us before she goes and spoils the whole games for me, again!

This is unabated good news, fortunately even Soboleva is not on the tongues of the general public unlike Marion Jones and some Eastern European drug bust is hardly gonna shock Joe Public.

Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!

Oh my goodness, terrible thought, do I even trust Masterkova any more? One of my all time favourites, was just watching her 1996 runs on youtube last week, but the patterns is worryingly similar.

BTW I would like to see maternity testing brought in for Russian athletes so that when we here they are pregnant we can actually ascertain whether they really have given birth as I don't like the habit of their athletes disappearing for tears and coming back in wonder shape.
Last edited by mark on Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:58 am

Wonder if they'll get DQ'ed from Osaka results?

That would mean Barrios would get silver and Grasu move up to bronze in the DT and Lishchynska up to silver and Yordanova bronze in the 1500m.

Not sure I'm particularly comfortable with all of those changes!
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:01 am

mark wrote:Lesson to be learnt, doping transcends beauty.


??? Trumps ???

Image
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:01 am

Stephen wrote:Wonder if they'll get DQ'ed from Osaka results?

That would mean Barrios would get silver and Grasu move up to bronze in the DT and Lishchynska up to silver and Yordanova bronze in the 1500m.

Not sure I'm particularly comfortable with all of those changes!


As long as you're comfortable with one of those changes everything's OK with me!
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 am

Mark, I think we can safely say our sport is probably as dirty as it ever was.

The top US sprinters all going down (Gatlin, Montgomery, Jones, Gaines, White etc) these Russian positives, the revelation that Nesterenko failed a test years ago, all the come backs from throwers that have failed tests (Sadova, Fazekas etc)...not to mention random 'juniors' lighting up the tracks from outta nowhere, lack of testing in the caribbean....

:cry:
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 am

I was really looking forward to seeing Sobo-Jelimo and hearing the Agogô heralding the bell lap:

Image

Now the only thing being heralded is yet another [shocking, duh] doping revelation. I guess that leaves Pamela on-'er-own-a.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:11 am

peach wrote:
Jon wrote:No way, I never trusted Pishchalnikova!
Me neither - the deep grunt she let out when she threw, her facial acne, and rapid progression were all small hints :)


I agree with you on the first two, but the latter isn't too much of an issue- rapid progression at a young age isn't really that much of a giveaway and she's still only 23...[/quote]

I thought she was the first exciting new talent in a long time in an event which has been pretty much dead in recent years. I don't like the idea of the event being dominated by women in their late 30s and even 40s.
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Postby Jacksf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:15 am

mark wrote:


Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!


Surely you don't mean Kelly Holmes, who found the form of her life at the age of 34?!
and then retired?!
Please!!!
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:17 am

Jacksf wrote:
mark wrote:


Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!


Surely you don't mean Kelly Holmes, who found the form of her life at the age of 34?!
and then retired?!
Please!!!


:roll: That's utter crap.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:20 am

Powell wrote: I thought she was the first exciting new talent in a long time in an event which has been pretty much dead in recent years. I don't like the idea of the event being dominated by women in their late 30s and even 40s.


TBH I never thought she was a natural exciting talent, but exciting talent, yes.

The event does lend itself to older competitors: the years of competitive experience, the polished technique, the kind of strength needed not being the same as some of the more dynamic events etc.... but I agree, I dont like the fact that most of the throws are dominated by older athletes, and ones who have failed tests at some point in their career too!

Earlier this year I read that Dietzsh's coach was being hounded by the DLV, and there were suggestions that he wouldnt be allowed to travel with the official team to Beijing, because of past 'misdemours'. Franka flatly refused to go to the Games if her coach wasnt there too. The DLV then automatically selected her Beijing, but she subsequently pulled out because of 'lack of form'. I did wonder if it had anything to do with her coach being pursued....2 + 2 doesnt always make 4, and I do like Franka, but it did leave a slightly bitter taste in my mouth, and we all know about guilt by association.
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Postby mark » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:20 am

Stephen, call me optimistic I hope this may be a turning point, I really do. So many years I have been waiting for something big to happen out East, too many too good athletes in concentration of female events. Basic steroids have become too primitive and easy to spot.

Whatever we eventually learn (and that will probably be very little) about the regimes used by these offenders will probably show that there will always be something now that the labs will churn out. However, what we also see is the international federation starting to work off hunches and track suspicious athletes. It somewhat offends my ideologies, but I have to confess to a sentiment of its about time!
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:21 am

Jacksf wrote:
mark wrote:


Interestingly, the women's 1500m ends up historically looking pretty much as dirty if not dirtier than any other event. Thank goodness for Kelly!


Surely you don't mean Kelly Holmes, who found the form of her life at the age of 34?!
and then retired?!
Please!!!


Uh uh. I hate Kelly Holmes more than anyone on this forum (at the moment because she is a dame before Daley Thompson was knighted - he still hasn't) and even I would never accuse her of taking drugs, nor Mutola whom I was also not a fan of for years (until idiots on the BBC forum thought Kelly was better than her simply because of her second Olympic gold...)
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:24 am

Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?

I thought Semenova was a big talent, but then it looked like she would really stagnate, she dropped behind the Serb Tomasevic, but she improved this year, maybe she'll get on the rostrum (with the Serb too?)
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Postby Jacksf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:27 am

You all are looking back at the records of these Russian girls and saying that you always suspected them based on their records and their age.
And then you want to hold up Kelly Holmes as an example of someone who doesn't fit this pattern. But she does fit this pattern.
Whether she took PEDs or not - obviously I don't know!
But I don't see how you can hold her up as a shining example when her record is similar to some of these Russian women.
I would certainly pick someone else to represent all that is good in women's distance running.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:30 am

mark wrote: However, what we also see is the international federation starting to work off hunches and track suspicious athletes. It somewhat offends my ideologies, but I have to confess to a sentiment of its about time!


I agree. The whole 'target testing' goes against the idea that athletes samples are supposed to be anonymous, but that code of anonymity gets broken this way.
However, the IAAF have always had profiles of athletes and always target tested. I remember reading way back how they targetted certain athletes in certain events in Seoul, to create a genetic profile, and that they were particularly interested in a number of women in the 100m!

My big concern is that they have to ensure they test a variety of countries, and approach it fairly. Any country where thee are obstacles in getting visas etc, should be targetted all the more IMO, I wouldnt want athletes in China, Belarus, Cuba for example, getting away with things just because it's easier to target athletes who compete on the circuit more.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:31 am

Stephen wrote:
Powell wrote: I thought she was the first exciting new talent in a long time in an event which has been pretty much dead in recent years. I don't like the idea of the event being dominated by women in their late 30s and even 40s.


The event does lend itself to older competitors: the years of competitive experience, the polished technique, the kind of strength needed not being the same as some of the more dynamic events etc....


But not to that extent! In the men's throws you have mostly guys in their late 20s/ early 30s dominating. Women's SP was just as bad a few years ago, but in the last seasons, new talent has finally emerged. I still say there's something very wrong with the state of an event in which multiple 40-year olds are world beaters.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:32 am

Jacksf wrote: I would certainly pick someone else to represent all that is good in women's distance running.


I agree. Olizarenko, Grau-Wodars or Ivan :D
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:37 am

andyjgt wrote:Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?


Good question :? She did pick up a hand injury last year, but why she's still throwing well below potential this year, I don't know. After 2006, I thought she would soon become a medal contender for the years to come.

andyjgt wrote:I thought Semenova was a big talent, but then it looked like she would really stagnate, she dropped behind the Serb Tomasevic, but she improved this year, maybe she'll get on the rostrum (with the Serb too?)


There's also Yarelis Barrios, who is just 25 and has a better chance than the two you mentioned, but still, the top 2 favorites are both 36 years old. Not to mention Yatchenko and Zvereva, who are nearing the statutory retirement age and are still throwing at world-class levels.
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:39 am

Hey at least Liliya Shish-kebob-ukhova isn't toast! We might get one good Africa-Russia race in Big Jing.
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:39 am

Powell wrote:
andyjgt wrote:Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?


There's also Yarelis Barrios, who is just 25 and has a better chance than the two you mentioned, but still, the top 2 favorites are both 36 years old. Not to mention Yatchenko and Zvereva, who are nearing the statutory retirement age and are still throwing at world-class levels.


I think Silhava should make a comeback :wink:
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:40 am

Mennisco wrote:Hey at least Liliya Shish-kebob-ukhova isn't toast! We might get one good Africa-Russia race in Big Jing.


Unless the Chinese come out and run sub-14:00 :roll:
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:41 am

Powell wrote:
Mennisco wrote:Hey at least Liliya Shish-kebob-ukhova isn't toast! We might get one good Africa-Russia race in Big Jing.


Unless the Chinese come out and run sub-14:00 :roll:


In that case we can help them with their hair and fashion problems.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:42 am

nevetsllim wrote:I think Silhava should make a comeback :wink:


She did throw 64 meters at 45 years of age, so why not? She's still only 54 :twisted:
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Postby trackhead » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:45 am

Stephen wrote:Mark, I think we can safely say our sport is probably as dirty as it ever was.

The top US sprinters all going down (Gatlin, Montgomery, Jones, Gaines, White etc) these Russian positives, the revelation that Nesterenko failed a test years ago, all the come backs from throwers that have failed tests (Sadova, Fazekas etc)...not to mention random 'juniors' lighting up the tracks from outta nowhere, lack of testing in the caribbean....

:cry:


Which of those American busts is recent? Gatlin is the only one that was apart of this generation of sprinters. And given his coach...
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Postby BruceFlorman » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:48 am

trackhead wrote:
Stephen wrote:Mark, I think we can safely say our sport is probably as dirty as it ever was.

The top US sprinters all going down (Gatlin, Montgomery, Jones, Gaines, White etc) these Russian positives, the revelation that Nesterenko failed a test years ago, all the come backs from throwers that have failed tests (Sadova, Fazekas etc)...not to mention random 'juniors' lighting up the tracks from outta nowhere, lack of testing in the caribbean....
:cry:

Which of those American busts is recent? Gatlin is the only one that was apart of this generation of sprinters. And given his coach...

Yeah, no current coach would be dumb enough to send a vial of the latest-and-greatest stuff in to the authorities. :roll:
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Postby andyjgt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:53 am

nevetsllim wrote:
Powell wrote:
andyjgt wrote:Powell, why has Potepa regressed recently, not over 62 the last 2 years yet she did 66.01 in 2006?


There's also Yarelis Barrios, who is just 25 and has a better chance than the two you mentioned, but still, the top 2 favorites are both 36 years old. Not to mention Yatchenko and Zvereva, who are nearing the statutory retirement age and are still throwing at world-class levels.


I think Silhava should make a comeback :wink:


Wyludda deffo should - she's not even 40!
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Postby croflash » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:56 am

This thread is getting way out of hand. The amount of pointing at others or entire nations isn't fair, most nations have a rich history of doping. It's pure speculation based on performances, looks, behavior, developments, improve rates and origin.
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Postby #6 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:56 am

peach wrote:I wondered earlier if it meant that it was clear that, say, the samples from Soboleva were all from different people...

So the DNA didn't match between the three urine samples taken at different times...



from the Russian article seems (if i underastand correctly) that the DNA from the first test (april-may 2007) didn't match the third test (last week NC)
it says nothing about the second test (Osaka).. so was all fine there?

it would be interesting to know which test has been faked then..the 1st or the 3rd?

and again how 7 athletes have managed to substitute the urine samples in front of the wada officiers.. :roll:
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Postby gh » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:01 am

croflash wrote:This thread is getting way out of hand. The amount of pointing at others or entire nations isn't fair, most nations have a rich history of doping. It's pure speculation based on performances, looks, behavior, developments, improve rates and origin.


And there are several people who obviously didn't read my earlier stricture regards this thread being about the 7 known positives. Period. Next offender in this regard is gone. Instantly.
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Postby Jon » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:15 am

Jacksf wrote:You all are looking back at the records of these Russian girls and saying that you always suspected them based on their records and their age. And then you want to hold up Kelly Holmes as an example of someone who doesn't fit this pattern. But she does fit this pattern. But I don't see how you can hold her up as a shining example when her record is similar to some of these Russian women.
The main difference being that she comes from a nation that actually does regular out-of-competition testing and that she was not part of an organised doping regime.
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Postby mark » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:15 am

The official response pretty much says it all,

"This IAAF decision dashes our athletes' hopes to perform at Beijing," Valentin Balakhnichev, head of the Russian federation, was cited as saying by Agence France-Presse.

One further observation; did Yegorova even participate in Kazan ? If not, and I don't recall her running, this adds another layer of intrigue to proceedings.
Last edited by mark on Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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