SOBOLEVA OUT OF BEIJING


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Postby rasb » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:43 pm

I wasn't thinking of a team getting kicked out --- more along the lines of an entire team (Nation) walking, or threatening to. Perhaps even more so if testing protocols have just now caught up to potential offenders.
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Postby Kurt Francis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:43 pm

Mennisco wrote:
Kurt Francis wrote:I agree with the Russians. This smacks of politics given the timing. The Russians ought to make life difficult for the IAAF.


You're an engineer, yes? You should be able to pick out the significance of this:

Image


I'm a ME, not an EE. But, give me a few minutes...I'll see if I can decipher it based on my early EE training :D
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Postby Kurt Francis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:46 pm

Kurt Francis wrote:
Mennisco wrote:
Kurt Francis wrote:I agree with the Russians. This smacks of politics given the timing. The Russians ought to make life difficult for the IAAF.


You're an engineer, yes? You should be able to pick out the significance of this:

Image


I'm a ME, not an EE. But, give me a few minutes...I'll see if I can decipher it based on my early EE training :D


Stopwatch???
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Postby Kurt Francis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:49 pm

AthleticsInBritain wrote:What would be the political motivation for something like this? Why risk annoying the no. 2 athletics nation and hosts of the 2013 WCs? It's not in the interests of the IAAF to offend them. Realpolitik decrees they'd have to be pretty sure of their facts/pissed off before they acted on something like this.

If this becomes an even bigger stink expect reprisals.


I've seen the hatred on this board for East Europeans, particularly coming from posters in 2 countries (mine not included). Don't think that hatred for the US seen in many quarters isn't also directed at the East Europeans, Russia in particular. This is a georacialpolitical world we live in, and it permeats everything. Anyone who thinks differently has their head in the sand.
Last edited by Kurt Francis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Madd Marine » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:16 pm

Mennisco wrote:
gh wrote:Story from Moscow Times now posted to front page. "Pure politics" crys the coach!


"This is pure politics," Sergei Vasilyev, the coach of the suspended athletes, said by telephone. "If these athletes, who are the main contenders for gold medals, are forced out of the games, the new favorites will automatically be the Chinese."

Really, now??

Is he spinning this one right out of control?


Ha!

Then on the other hand, I wouldn't be too surprised if some Chinese showed rather exceptional, sudden improvement at the Games. Having talked with a few guys here and there who have been on the circuit, they were of the opinion that politics is involved in some cases of enforcement and/or non-enforcement, with certain countries let off the hook and others generally having to take a body shot when caught. They felt that, yikes, US sprinters "might' be catching breaks here and there, and a percentage of E. Africans also, along with runners from smaller countries being let slide rather than the larger ones (mainly European) that you would expect to have influence and thus be able to skate when it comes to testing. If these guys were right, then it isn't only about money. I'm not behind the scenes, so who knows? Maybe Scully and Mulder should look into it. :wink:
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Postby Seeksreal » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:21 pm

BruceFlorman wrote:
Seeksreal wrote:What will it take to ban an entire team?

If Balco didn't get us kicked out, should this do it for them?

I wasn't at all implying that I think the Russian team should be banned. I was just asking the question of where the tipping point for such an action against any country would be.
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Postby imaginative » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:29 pm

If we assume a political motivation, it need not be on the
international level. It could well be more of an IAAF internal thing.
It is not uncommon for organisations (including governments,
companies, and sport organisations) or the people on top of the
organisations to handle matters so as to get ``their way'' done,
putting fairness and similar concepts aside.

In this case, it is conceivable that a decision was made to have the,
presumably, guilty russians excluded from the OG, no matter what. (Yes,
similar childish sounding decisions are not uncommon.) According to
one article, a protest by the russians has to be treated within two
months; thus, the timing was chosen so this could be done after the
games---without violating the rules. (Many other explanations and
combinations are possible.)

Consider similarly the discussions around this years FOT, the scandals
and allegations around the volley ball equivalent of the IAAF (I do not
rembember its name), or the absurd behaviour of the swedish wrestling
federation concerning Ida-Theres Karlsson.

Now, I am _not_ saying that there is anything similar going on. I am
just pointing to the importance of _internal_ politics, as a
potentially greater source of ``odd behaviour'' than global politics.
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Postby Kurt Francis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:41 pm

imaginative wrote:If we assume a political motivation, it need not be on the
international level. It could well be more of an IAAF internal thing.
It is not uncommon for organisations (including governments,
companies, and sport organisations) or the people on top of the
organisations to handle matters so as to get ``their way'' done,
putting fairness and similar concepts aside.

In this case, it is conceivable that a decision was made to have the,
presumably, guilty russians excluded from the OG, no matter what. (Yes,
similar childish sounding decisions are not uncommon.) According to
one article, a protest by the russians has to be treated within two
months; thus, the timing was chosen so this could be done after the
games---without violating the rules. (Many other explanations and
combinations are possible.)

Consider similarly the discussions around this years FOT, the scandals
and allegations around the volley ball equivalent of the IAAF (I do not
rembember its name), or the absurd behaviour of the swedish wrestling
federation concerning Ida-Theres Karlsson.

Now, I am _not_ saying that there is anything similar going on. I am
just pointing to the importance of _internal_ politics, as a
potentially greater source of ``odd behaviour'' than global politics.


I tend to agree with you on this one, Imaginative. This could very well be a case of political-correctness within the upper echelon of the IAAF biased against the Russians; i.e., the desire to prevent them from spoiling the chances of the upstart African women. It stinks to high heaven in my book.
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Postby Moura » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:47 pm

We know all problems cycling is facing, in weightlifting all athletes qualified from Bulgaria to OG were banned and now this with several russian athletes.
I mentioned doping is a WorldWide problem and unfortunately I start to believe that any outstanding performance from anyone has an high probability of being "dirty".
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Postby Jaack » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:56 pm

Moura wrote:We know all problems cycling is facing, in weightlifting all athletes qualified from Bulgaria to OG were banned and now this with several russian athletes.
I mentioned doping is a WorldWide problem and unfortunately I start to believe that any outstanding performance from anyone has an high probability of being "dirty".
I may be wrong, but I don't believe the Bulgairan team were banned per se....11 or 12 athletes failed doping tests and as a result, the Bulgarian federation decided to keep the entire team out of the olympics?!

The Bulgarian fed seemed disgusted and were apologetic, a similar stance would be nice from the Russians. Ultimately, 7 (that we know of) athletes tampered with their tests and their automatic response involves blame as opposed to shame?

Similarly, the Greeks, the fathers of the Olympic games think it''s fine to send Thanou (who only had the B standard, thus there was no real pressure) despite the fact that she is a national, and world wide disgrace? You'd think, somewhere, somebody from these nations would understand damage control and try to protect their other athletes by condeming the cheats...otherwise they ALL get tarnished with the same brush.
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Postby ShaunP » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:33 pm

This is of course a very interesting scenario and shows that some of the initiatives that were discussed at the 2006 IAAF Anti Doping Congress held in Lausanne, are coming to fruition.

It was said at the time in Lausanne, that the IAAF intended to use much more intelligence based approach to its Anti Doping strategy in order to try to protect clean athletes. What this meant among other things, was that they were targetting "known" or "suspected" trouble spots, countries and athletes, with more out of competition controls and perhaps with more frequency. As an example, following the issues with some of the Hungarian Throwers in Athens, they were carrying out more OOC tests on Hungarian throwers, and some countries suspected of EPO use or Blood Doping also came under heavy scrutiny ( and it could be said that some traditional strong Middle Distance countries have not been so strong in the last 18 months...).

The were also encouraging athletes and coaches with suspicions to come forward, and they would look at these concerns and perhaps carry out more OOC tests in these areas. ALso counties without a recognised OOC Testing programme were also focussed on, as can be seen in the overview of the 3000+ tests thatthe IAAF carried out in 2007, as countries such as Jamaica and even Russia, had their major athletes tested more frequently than the athletes from say USA and UK, where a more extensive OOC testing programme is in effect.

The other major new area of investigation that they discussed at this conference was the use of information gathered from previous tests as an indication of doping infringements, rather than the result form just one sample. For example, while all tests conducted at an accredited lab are carried out anonymously, they wanted to introduce a system where previous test results from the same athlete could be used to look for anomilies. If a test for a particular athlete showed a Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio of greater than 4:1 (indication of positive test), or perhaps only 2:1, but previous tests had never been greater than 1:1, then this was in itself evidence of doping, and so would result in a positive test.

Similarly, they may conduct a carbon isotope assay on a sample that showed less than 4:1 ratio, but indicated the presence of exogenous testosterone, and therefore result in a positive test. In the past, this secondary testing was very rarely used, but is now being used as a matter of course, and therfore can show eveidence of doping even though the Test:Epi ratio did not give a positive indication.

DNA can be obtained from a number of sources, and can be used to ensure that a particular sample actually came from the person that is was meant to have come from. Going back to the Katrin Krabbe tests, the training partners were not banned for testing positive sample, but rather for manipulation of the testing procedure, when it was discovered that the three (I believe) athletes urine samples that were taken in South Africa, were shown to come from one and the same person, and so could not have come from (at least two) of the athletes in question. They had provided clean samples that had come from someone that was not using drugs, and they had presumably catheterised themselves and introduced that clean urine into their own bladders, or used a vessel to hold the clean urine, so that they would give the impression of providing a sample to the doping officers, when in fact it was not their own urine. This is exactly why UNANNOUNCED OUT OF COMPETITION TESTING is so important to catch cheaters....

I would suggest that in this case, the IAAF had some questions about the authenticity in some of the samples obtained last year (2007) on a number of athletes, and started to compare samples from different dates from the same athletes, and perhaps to compare DNA in each sample to ensure that they were coming from the same person. If there were any anomalies, then these would have to be investigated further and perhaps more tests were compared for these same athletes. If the DNA in two or more tests from (supposedly) the same person was shown to be different, then there were certainly questions to be answered, and I would suggest that this was when the Rissian Federation was informed in June.

A this is a new anti doping practice, then the testing merthodology would have to be proved, double checked and validated by independent scientists before the IAAF could move forward from a legal perspective and try to use this as a demonstration of Doping. Remember that Tim Montgomery never actually failed a test, but was banned upon the testimony of others, that proved to a satisfactory degee to CAS that a Doping Infraction had taken place, and Montgomery banned.

With the science proven and the IAAF / WADA ./ CAS Lawyers happy that it would stand up in court, then the next natural step was to obtain another sample, and certain DNA sample from the Athletes in question, andthe Russian Championships would be the ideal location as they should all be there, so Gabrielle Dolle was dispatched to get the definitive DNA samples. Once these were checked against the questionable tests from 2007, and discrepancies would give clear indication of manipulation of the Anti Doping procedures, and allow for the athletes in question to be suspended imediately.

I think that the timing is good...the Russian Champs were late, just before the cut-off date for Olympic Entries, and after the IOC Testing protocol comes into effect. I am sure that the Russians would have entered a fourth (reserve) athlete where available, so these reserves could appear in Beijing, but inthe 800/1500m this may be more of a problem as a number of athletes are effected, and only one reserve per event would be entered.

I am glad that some of these initiatives seem to be working now.

Sorry for the long post...

ShaunP
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Postby BruceFlorman » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:16 pm

ShaunP wrote:With the science proven and the IAAF / WADA ./ CAS Lawyers happy that it would stand up in court, then the next natural step was to obtain another sample, and certain DNA sample from the Athletes in question, andthe Russian Championships would be the ideal location as they should all be there, so Gabrielle Dolle was dispatched to get the definitive DNA samples.

But unless Balakhnichev is flat-out lying, Gabrielle Dolle didn't go to the Russian championships in Kazan to collect the DNA samples. He went to Moscow, about 400 miles (644 km) away from Kazan. I suspect that he could've found six out of seven in Moscow almost anytime.

I kind of doubt that these gals are innocent victims, but the timing on this is clearly intended to keep 'em out of Beijing without a hearing of any sort. So while we're gonna have to wait and see if the science will really stand up in court, the punishment has already been imposed. And I can't say that I'm very comfortable with the judge-jury-executioner combination involved here.
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:17 pm

ShaunP wrote:Sorry for the long post...


Sorry? You took some time to write something useful and I found it informative and interesting. Ignore the whiners and naysayers. Well done.
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Postby mark » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:21 pm

Jaack wrote:[
Similarly, the Greeks, the fathers of the Olympic games think it''s fine to send Thanou (who only had the B standard, thus there was no real pressure) despite the fact that she is a national, and world wide disgrace? You'd think, somewhere, somebody from these nations would understand damage control and try to protect their other athletes by condeming the cheats...otherwise they ALL get tarnished with the same brush.


Power of media. Things are not seen the same by all people. We all saw Thanou and Kederis as the bad guys. That was the way the world media portrayed, besides it made a great story. Many Greeks have had drummed into them and read a hundred times that the athletes never failed a test, that t was all a misunderstanding etc. Much the same way other countries may judge the role of Linford Christie or the return to the team of Christine Ohourugu and Mark Richardson, they may never have had full information. People support Thanou in Greece and it would be a harsh reality for the public if she were dumped by the federation.

Besides I wouldn't treat Thanou any harsher than Blonska, Cherry etc, they all brought out sport into disrepute.
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:24 pm

BruceFlorman wrote: And I can't say that I'm very comfortable with the judge-jury-executioner combination involved here.


Whatever surreptitious affairs may be concealed in this case, all I can say at this point is thank God for Pamela Jelimo, Tirunesh Dibaba and Meserat Defar. They ought to be able to deal with any Chi-bots that pop up out of holes in the track. Hey, there's a video game concept to market in Africa.....

Image

http://blog.templates.com/3d-robots-review/
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Postby imaginative » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:47 pm

Well, nationalism is a problem. Even I would probably be less inclined to
give a foreigner a second chance than a countryman. However, when
comparing different athletes, their demeanor should be considered:
Thanou, Kenteris, and Jones behaved outrageously, others stepped up
and took their punishment as adults. Blonska seems to have been more
of an adult (to my limited knowledge---possibly, her surrounding
behaviour was simply too invisible in the press). Correspondingly, I
would be more inclined to allow Blonska a second chance than Thanou.
(Notwithstanding that I would have been more at ease, had Blonska's
post-suspension results been weaker.)
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Postby jumplove » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:53 pm

I only have a question:

Since the female urine or swab testers are looking at the female athlete when they collect the sample how is it possible for the athlete to alter the sample???????
From what I heard they are literary looking at the genitalia when the athlete is peeing in the bottle. Or am I wrong??????

How would it be possible for a female to run with a "bag of clean urine" inside her??? or to have it inside all the time to be ready for out of competition doping tests? :roll:

" Hei Sergey wait a second before going to the Cinema tonight, let me put that clean human urine inside of me, you never know........" :?
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Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:22 pm

jumplove wrote:How would it be possible for a female to run with a "bag of clean urine" inside her???


No bag is needed as the bladder is the receptacle for the clean urine. Normally you cauterize a bladder to allow urine to come out but it can be reversed too. I assume the strategy is to fill up with clean urine if there is any chance of being tested. Certainly before a race.

With regard to out of competition testing I'm not sure how they do it. How long would they need to fill up the bladder? Possibly they get prior warning of out of competition testing?
Last edited by Daisy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vault-emort » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:31 pm

Jaack wrote:
Moura wrote:We know all problems cycling is facing, in weightlifting all athletes qualified from Bulgaria to OG were banned and now this with several russian athletes.
I mentioned doping is a WorldWide problem and unfortunately I start to believe that any outstanding performance from anyone has an high probability of being "dirty".
I may be wrong, but I don't believe the Bulgairan team were banned per se....11 or 12 athletes failed doping tests and as a result, the Bulgarian federation decided to keep the entire team out of the olympics?!

Unless they've changed the rules, world weighlifting federation bans any country from international weightlifting comps if the country has had three positives in a year.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:15 pm

rasb wrote:I wonder if the Coach's comments were made with the consent of the Russian Government. Gawd, this could get much more ugly.

Medvedev just made a speech yesterday about ending corruption... police corruption, that is. I believe he only has one speech per year of this kind (he:s new in office), so he:ll have to pull another angle with athletics.
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Postby El Toro » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:02 pm

Vault-emort wrote:Unless they've changed the rules, world weighlifting federation bans any country from international weightlifting comps if the country has had three positives in a year.


Not quite. The tests have to be in international competition and there has been provision to pay a fine to the IWF rather than serve the suspension. Now that's the way to encourage a cash strapped organisation to hold the line........
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:07 am

It:s getting better by the hour:

The Russian media alleged the seven samples had been manipulated by a western company.

"We have yet to realise the scale of the catastrophe," the newspaper wrote. "It appears all of them (the female athletes) are merely hostages in somebody else's very big game."


"I call what is happening now a provocation staged deliberately to knock out the potential medalists right before the Olympics," Kommersant business daily quoted Soboleva as saying.

"All of us had the best chances to win medals in Beijing. I stress once again that I reject the accusations brought against me by the IAAF (athletics' world governing body).

"I also ask my fans to forgive me for being charged with what I am actually not guilty of."

http://www.reuters.com/article/olympics ... 7220080801
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Postby peach » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:12 am

The funniest bit about that article is in that the furore and frenzy about all of this, the media claims "FIVE OF OUR GOLDS HAVE BEEN FLUSHED DOWN THE DRAIN"- ignoring the fact that even if all of them HAD been able to win every event they entered, as 3 of them are entered in the 1500m, they could have only won four in the FIRST PLACE

What a ridiculous load of hogwash. Ban the sorry lot of them...
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Postby lapsus » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:21 am

Hmm.

Does this mean the Russians' performances between Osaka and now will be annulled?

Will Gelete Burka get indoor 1500 meter WR for a race she placed 3rd in?

Could you say the Valencia race was a "mixed race"? Burka was kind of paced until the end... :wink:
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:04 am

Vault-emort wrote:
Jaack wrote:
Moura wrote:We know all problems cycling is facing, in weightlifting all athletes qualified from Bulgaria to OG were banned and now this with several russian athletes.
I mentioned doping is a WorldWide problem and unfortunately I start to believe that any outstanding performance from anyone has an high probability of being "dirty".
I may be wrong, but I don't believe the Bulgairan team were banned per se....11 or 12 athletes failed doping tests and as a result, the Bulgarian federation decided to keep the entire team out of the olympics?!

Unless they've changed the rules, world weighlifting federation bans any country from international weightlifting comps if the country has had three positives in a year.

According to this article, it was the Bulgarian Federation themselves.....but, well they may have pre -empted the inevitable?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic ... 477827.stm

Either way, the manner in which the Bulgarian fed handled this, portraying anger and disappointment towards the athletes with a view to clean things up, well, surely Russia should be employing similar tactics?
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Postby Daisy » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:42 am

Soboleva Says She's Shocked By Doping Results

Finally the truth comes out. I have no doubt they are shocked they got caught.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:13 am

Marlow, you wanna bet what happens next?

Someone:s neighbour-to-a-neighbour-to-a-neighbour-to-a-Western State:s oil supply gets turned off as a Russian protest ;-)

(or those visa applications for the 2013 champs suddenly - and mysteriously - get delayed, or, worse, lost for a group of friendlies travelling on through).
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Postby Daisy » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:17 am

Just out of interest, now the testing is getting more sophisticated, who is paying for all these tests? They are not cheap.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:07 am

As one can imagine, Soboleva was front-page news in several dailies:

Image

The large, center headline in bold means: "Switched". The lower right one means, "Olympics, First Blood."

Tabloids weren:t as bad as Aftonbladet.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:14 am

Russia won:t appeal the seven temporary bans until after Beijing:

"We don't really want to create a scandal, convinced that something is one way and then get proof that directly contradicts it. We especially don't want to do this directly in Beijing."

"If the athletes are guilty, they will be punished. If we see that the international sporting organisations have not followed the letter of the law, then we will be discussing this differently. Perhaps in court or other means of defence," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/7694909
Last edited by EPelle on Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:17 am

EPelle wrote:As one can imagine, Soboleva was front-page news in several dailies:

.
Sheesh, Soboleva sure is the face they're using! When really (big, bad)Tomashova is the one with all of the titles!?
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:19 am

Soboleva is the world:s fastest athlete at two distances, the reigning world indoor champion and the world indoor record-holder.

News flash: IOC may decide to impose sanctions on Russia
http://www.theage.com.au/news/latest-ne ... 35147.html
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:22 am

EPelle wrote:Soboleva is the world:s fastest athlete at two distances, the reigning world indoor champion and the world indoor record-holder.

News flash: IOC may decide to impose sanctions on Russia
http://www.theage.com.au/news/latest-ne ... 35147.html


Sure Epelle, I understand the reasoning, and also...Soboleva is quite aesthetically pleasing!

Thanks for the additional information. Things get more and more interesting!
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Postby BruceFlorman » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:40 am

Daisy wrote:Just out of interest, now the testing is getting more sophisticated, who is paying for all these tests? They are not cheap.

I haven’t read anything about any “new” super-duper tests. All I’ve seen so far is changes in testing and enforcement policy. It may be that they hadn’t done any DNA verification of the samples prior to this time, but the DNA testing itself is hardly a revolutionary breakthrough.

The sequence of events, as they’ve been put forth so far is this:
  1. In April-May 2007 out-of-competition samples were collected from these seven Russian athletes, along with many others, I presume. They were tested and came out clean. The samples were then stored for comparison with later samples. Whether all OOC samples from this timeframe were stored, or just those from targeted individuals or countries hasn’t been publicly revealed.
  2. In August-September 2007 a new set of samples were collected at the WC in Osaka. Again, the samples themselves came out clean.
  3. At some point between September 2007 and June 2008, although precisely when hasn’t been revealed, the DNA from the first set of samples was tested against the DNA from the second set, and for these seven it was found that they didn’t match. Again, whether similar tests were conducted for all WC participants, just those from targeted countries, or just for targeted individuals hasn’t been revealed.
  4. In early June the Russian federation was informed that there were issues with these seven athletes. The President of the federation asked whether they should be excluded from the Russian championships, and was told that there was no basis for doing so “at the moment”.
  5. The day after the conclusion of the Russian champs, an IAAF representative went to Russia to collect direct DNA samples from the seven athletes involved (although evidently he only ended up meeting with six of them).
  6. One day before the deadline for making changes to the composition of the Olympic teams, the IAAF informed the Russian federation that the DNA tests indicated that the DNA in the April-May 2007 samples had not come from the athletes in question, and on that basis, those seven were being “temporarily suspended”.

There’s a lot that we don’t know about the testing procedures involved here. It’s not too hard to come up with scenarios that would put the results into question. Now I’ll state that I personally doubt very much that these seven gals are innocent victims in all this. They probably did exactly what they’re being accused of. Nevertheless, I think the Russians have some very legitimate complaints about the way the IAAF is handling the situation. Whether the IAAF’s accusations will stand up in court or not is completely unproven, but the punishment is already being imposed without a hearing of any sort whatsoever. Hearings on suspensions of this nature are required “within two months”, but the outcome of these are completely moot in this situation.

The IAAF/WADA/whoever-did-the-testing could certainly have collected the direct DNA samples earlier. And as far as that goes, it doesn’t appear that the outcome of these final tests has any logical bearing on the suspensions. Whether it was the earlier samples or the later that had come from unknown surrogates, the “charge” is tampering with the tests, so which of the two had been tampered with is immaterial. It’s completely obvious that the timing of all this was deliberately intended to keep these athletes out of the Olympics, and to prevent the Russians from replacing them, regardless of whether or not the charges can be made to stick.

I’m seeing all sorts of huzzahs and back-slapping here, but I wonder if you’d all feel the same way if the names were changed? Christine Ohruogu missed three OOC tests. Suppose the IAAF said yesterday: “That’s suspicious, so we’re suspending her. But don’t worry, she can defend herself against the charges in September.” Bernard Legat failed a test for EPO, but got the results overturned in court. If the IAAF announced that this was suspicious, and suspended him “temporarily”, would you all still be happy?

Bottom line: Do you really feel that the cops should be allowed to do whatever they want, as long as they’re catching some of the bad guys?
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Postby Daisy » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:14 am

BruceFlorman wrote:
Daisy wrote:Just out of interest, now the testing is getting more sophisticated, who is paying for all these tests? They are not cheap.

I haven’t read anything about any “new” super-duper tests. All I’ve seen so far is changes in testing and enforcement policy. It may be that they hadn’t done any DNA verification of the samples prior to this time, but the DNA testing itself is hardly a revolutionary breakthrough.


I did not mean to imply it was revolutionary, but DNA testing is not one of WADA's normal tests as far as I know. And its not just the price of the tests (about $250, so it's not an extortionate price). More tests means sending out more testers, I assume they are not voluntary.

i think we know exactly what happened with regard to the tests. They did DNA tests on the urine samples (effectively a DNA fingerprint). They then did the same on the cheek swab sample. If the swab fingerprint does not match the urine fingerprint they must have tampered with the sample.

Possibly they could have taken the swabs earlier, or processed them faster, who knows? All I know is that it is better they are not running and depriving other athletes of their medal cermony experience.

With regard to EPO there is no comparison. That test is much more subjective than a DNA fingerprint. The urine and swab fingerprints either match or they don't. The only defense would be that the samples have been switched (as opposed to the normal defense that the samples were not stored correctly). Even then, there may well be other evidence that builds on the case. Possibly those athletes with the same coach all have a urine sample with the same fingerprint (speculation on my part). Unless the athletes are closely related this would be highly unlikely.

BruceFlorman wrote:Bottom line: Do you really feel that the cops should be allowed to do whatever they want, as long as they’re catching some of the bad guys?


I find it hard to believe that these suspensions would have been brought at this time with subpar evidence. So yes, better these athletes do not run, regardless of the timing.
Last edited by Daisy on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gh » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:19 am

EPelle wrote:Russia won:t appeal the seven temporary bans until after Beijing:...


So now the key question is, when do we find out who (if anybody) they replace the miscreants with?
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Postby mrbowie » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:01 pm

science vs. the bad guys.

go science!
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Postby gh » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:05 pm

except that it's bad science vs. good science and bad keeps winning
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:09 pm

gh wrote:
EPelle wrote:Russia won:t appeal the seven temporary bans until after Beijing:...


So now the key question is, when do we find out who (if anybody) they replace the miscreants with?

I think as bruce notes
One day before the deadline for making changes to the composition of the Olympic teams, the IAAF informed the Russian federation that the DNA tests indicated that the DNA in the April-May 2007 samples had not come from the athletes in question, and on that basis, those seven were being “temporarily suspended”.

The whole point of the IAAF springing the suspension on them as this late date, was to prevent alternate entires? I may be wrong, and indeed, often am.
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Postby BruceFlorman » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:09 pm

gh wrote:So now the key question is, when do we find out who (if anybody) they replace the miscreants with?

According to... http://www.allsport.ru/index.php?id=16666
  • Yekaterina Kostetskaya will replace Soboleva in the 800.
  • Anna Alminova will be the only Russian participant in the 1500.
  • Pishchalnikova won't be replaced, since Russia only had three with the A standard in the DT.
  • Yelena Priyma will replace Khanafeeva in the HT.
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