Another TdF, EDIT- 3 dopers and counting!


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:17 am

RMc wrote:
Pego wrote:I maintain that such PED activities have no place in criminal proceedings. Sport authorities should deal with them, not courts of law.


The issue is whether the drugs are being issued illegally without prescription, at least in the US. If we believe that controlling prescription drugs is important to society in general, regardless of the "cheating" issue, then these should be criminal proceedings.


You are right, the laws on the books are such at the moment. Not everybody agrees that those are good laws :D .
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Re: Another TdF, another star nailed for doping!

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:17 am

26mi235 wrote:The Andreu case is the biggest thing against Armstrong, but even there there are some countering factors: Andreu had been dropped from the team and then dropped from the management/assistance position that he had and the others at the meeting provide no collaboration.

Here are some things to remember about Andreu:
1) Not only was he a friend and colleague of Armstrong, he was the best man at his wedding. And even after Andreu was released from US Postal, he continued to defend Armstrong vehemently as an Outdoor Life TV commentator, whenever doping charges would be leveled at him. It was only after he was put under oath that he changed his tune.
2) Andreu readily admits that his release from US Postal was a business decision based on his decline in performance, and neither Armstrong nor Andreu has ever spoken of anomosity between them. Furthermore, Armstrong has never tried to portray Andreu as a disgruntled ex-employee and he was at a loss for words when asked what motive Andreu would have for falsely accusing him of doping, the same way Clemens was at a loss for words to come up with a motive for Pettite.
3) There was corroboration of the things Armstrong said at the hospital meeting, namely Frankie's wife Betsy.
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Postby #6 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:08 am

RMc wrote:Seems EPO testing has gotten much better recently. We haven't seen this in T&F yet. I wonder if this will show up in Beijing?


this is so called "third generation EPO"
still not easy to be detected but seems that the testing are indeed improved

CERA or Continuous Erythropoiesis Receptor Activator is a new form of EPO, created by the Swiss company Roche, that has been created to help dialysis patients or people with kidney problems.

CERA is on the WADA list of banned products but it seems that riders thought that the test was unable to find CERA. WADA is known to be working on a test but it seems the testers have caught up with the dopers far quicker than anyone expected.
source

“In the case of Mircera ─ CERA ─ thanks to the cooperation of the manufacturer of this substance (Roche) and of WADA-accredited laboratories, WADA received the molecule well in advance and was able to develop ways to detect it,” he said. “This case shows the significant work that WADA conducts in anticipating doping trends, including by closely cooperating with pharmaceutical companies at very early stages of the development of molecules or substances for therapeutic purposes to develop detection methods for anti-doping purposes.”
source

more positive test have been announced today and muuuuch more still to come..
i have the bad feeling the the dope talk forum will be ulocked soon...
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Postby gh » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:19 am

I hate to go all Schadenfreude here, but from the point of view of an oppressed (and depressed) track guy, allow me to say, "Go Cycling!" (as in, keep stealing those doping headlines)
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Re: Another TdF, another star nailed for doping!

Postby RMc » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:58 pm

marknhj wrote:
26mi235 wrote:The likelihood that Armstrong used PEDs is not insignificant


I agree with that.


I would agree as well--I just made the point that there's a strong counterpoint to explain his extraordinary success which in my mind balances that probability.
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Postby RMc » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:02 pm

Pego wrote:
RMc wrote:
Pego wrote:I maintain that such PED activities have no place in criminal proceedings. Sport authorities should deal with them, not courts of law.


The issue is whether the drugs are being issued illegally without prescription, at least in the US. If we believe that controlling prescription drugs is important to society in general, regardless of the "cheating" issue, then these should be criminal proceedings.


You are right, the laws on the books are such at the moment. Not everybody agrees that those are good laws :D .


Controlling therapeutic drugs (of which most PEDs fall into this category vs. recreational drugs) is VERY important to preventing abuse by both doctors and patients. If anything, our current controls are too lax and doctors grossly overprescribe, particularly antibiotics.

I'm not against legalization of recreational drugs, especially since several e.g., alcohol, are already legal. But almost none of those are effective PEDs, no matter what snowboarders think.... :lol:
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Postby rasb » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:01 pm

Is this the first public "outing" of a successful testing protocol for so-called 3rd generation EPO? If so, I wonder if there will be a short term increase in DNS or DNF for endurance athletes in sports such as cycling...or running.
Can anyone comment on the clearance time required for metabolites of the old or new EPO? This makes me wonder if WADA has anything else up their sleeves for Beijing. We live in interesting times, indeed.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:30 am

Every day the sport of professional cycling is losing sponsors. If this continues, the sport will eventually cease to exist. And even the threat of incarceration, after being frog-marched from the team hotel, doesn't seem to deter these cyclists. It makes you wonder how draconian will the punishment have to be in order to get cyclists to quit doping.
Riccò spent Thursday night behind bars at a police station in Mirepoix, while the Saunier Duval bus was stopped and searched around 17.30 local time as it made its way from the race.

Riccò appeared in court in Foix on Friday morning to face charges relating to his failed test. The possession and use of banned substances is illegal under French law......

Thierry Leroy, a spokesman for title sponsor Saunier Duval, told French radio station RTL that the company would seriously consider its future investment in the cycling team. "It is highly probable that we will pull out of sponsoring cycling following this affair," said Leroy.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/to ... jul18news4
Team Barloworld has announced that it will end the sponsorship of its cycling team after the Tour de France following the failed doping test of Spaniard Moisés Dueñas. A sample given by Dueñas after the stage four time trial around Cholet was found to contain the banned blood booster EPO. The team's hotel was subsequently searched and Dueñas was said to be in position of "a small pharmacy" of banned substances.

In a statement issued Saturday, Chris Fisher, head of corporate marketing at Barloworld, said: "We consistently drive the values of our business through the team. Team Barloworld has a zero tolerance policy towards doping which has been constantly communicated to the riders - we have to act on this policy and as such we will all have to live with the long term consequences of one individual's action.

"This incident has a negative impact on Barloworld and our brand principals, which our board has a duty to protect."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... jul19news2
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Re: Another TdF, another star nailed for doping!

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:19 am

Conversely, there are several factors to consider with Armstrong. While a number of his former teammates tested positive, they all did so afterward when they were trying to step up a level.

The likelihood that Armstrong used PEDs is not insignificant, but saying it is greater than something that is known, with either one or two drug tests to back it up is too strong a statement. Note that I respect the opinion of both posters here: jazz and bambam, each of whom has experience relevant to forming a assessment.[/quote]

The fact that the former teammates tested positive after being on Lance's team does NOT mean they were not doing them earlier, they probably were not getting caught. The testing for the doping products has improved dramatically and many who have slithered through the system are now getting caught.

Birds of a feather flock together. Marion Jones was constantly surrounded by people who were getting caught or into legal troubles but never did anything wrong . . .until BALCO as we all know.

The fact that you don't fail a drug test does not mean you did not dope, just that you did not get caught as Marion Jones proved and many others.

In my opinion, all the top riders in the sport were using drugs because if they were all using them, then the best athletes would still win. How remarkeable it became that all athletes were able to near the limit for the hematocrit levels once those were established.

My belief is that there was a "code" in cycling was that if you were caught you were on your own and you did not implicate anyone else. This is why I believe Lance Armstrong went after Filippo Simeoni in the 2004 tour in one of the most bizarre scenes I remember in the TDF. Simeoni testified against Lance's good buddy Ferrari and went against this "code" and Armstrong was making a statement to him.

There is plenty of other "evidence" against Armstrong including his former massage therapist, the tests done on the old urine samples with the newest EPO technology. It is also hard to believe that Armstrong could have been beating the likes of Urich, Basso, Mayo, etc., when they were doping and he was not. He has incredible genetics and had a will to win that few could ever approach, but was that enough to beat others who did dope who had similar abilities?

I was a huge Armstrong fan while he was riding and still am, I just have lost my belief in his innocence [due to the numerous smoking guns] and the sport of cycling.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:14 pm

Note: Roberto Heras was a major cycling star before, during and after his association with Lance Armstrong. In 2000, he won the Tour of Spain and finished fifth in the Tour de France while riding for Kelme. In 2001, he joined US Postal. In 2003, he won another Tour of Spain while riding for US Postal. In 2004, he left US Postal for Liberty Seguros and won a third Tour of Spain. Then in 2005, after winning his fourth Tour of Spain, the testing finally caught up with him and he was stripped of his title two months after the race.

Here's the link to the Betsy Andreu interview. It's long, but it's also one of the most insightful things you'll ever hear.
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=154
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:52 pm

Pego wrote:I maintain that such PED activities have no place in criminal proceedings. Sport authorities should deal with them, not courts of law.

Tonight on Versus I heard Bob Roll say that in France, the use of PED's is a misdemeanor, except in the Tour de France where it is a felony. This may sound crazy, but we do live in a country that holds congressional hearings to investigate steroids in baseball, and let's not forget Arlen Specter and Spygate.
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Postby DrJay » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:05 am

bambam wrote:So there - I finally admitted that to more than just a few isolated people.


We still love you.

I'm reading "Ball Four" for the first time. Taking amphetamines was about like taking some ibuprofen for those guys.
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Postby bambam » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:45 am

DrJay wrote:
bambam wrote:So there - I finally admitted that to more than just a few isolated people.


We still love you.

I'm reading "Ball Four" for the first time. Taking amphetamines was about like taking some ibuprofen for those guys.


The funniest sports book ever written. You'll enjoy it a very fun read.
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Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:I maintain that such PED activities have no place in criminal proceedings. Sport authorities should deal with them, not courts of law.

Tonight on Versus I heard Bob Roll say that in France, the use of PED's is a misdemeanor, except in the Tour de France where it is a felony. This may sound crazy, but we do live in a country that holds congressional hearings to investigate steroids in baseball, and let's not forget Arlen Specter and Spygate.


Not surprising at all the French would make it a felony. The Tour is a big economic boom for them and take great pride in it. So when riders come along and disgrace it to the world, you can bet they are going to bring the hammer down.

By the way, I have watched it live every day and it has been a great race so far.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:04 am

Conor Dary wrote:By the way, I have watched it live every day and it has been a great race so far.

If watched it this morning, one thing I think we'll agree on is that the Tour de France is the world's most beautiful sporting venue. By the way, who do you pick to win?
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Postby Jnathletics » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:00 pm

Current top ten:
1. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 63h 57' 21"
2. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 63h 57' 28" + 00' 07"
3. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 63h 57' 29" + 00' 08"
4. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 63h 57' 59" + 00' 38"
5. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 63h 58' 00" + 00' 39"
6. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 63h 58' 10" + 00' 49"
7. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 64h 00' 09" + 02' 48"
8. EFIMKIN Vladimir 104 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 64h 00' 57" + 03' 36"
9. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 64h 01' 32" + 04' 11"
10. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 64h 01' 55" + 04' 34"


But with two mountain stages and a time trial left, it looks to be an exciting finish.
Kohl -0:47, Menchov -0:27, Schleck -0:09, over Evans today. Can they put enough distance between themselves and Evans before the final TT is the question.

Evans in the first TT was 2nd, 16 seconds ahead of Menchov while +1:56 Schleck and +1:29 Kohl (Vandevelde +0:19 and Sastre +1:25). To note the 1st TT was almost half the distance the 2nd TT will be, plus the 2nd will have some hills to it. So, a lot more time can be made up by a good TT'er.

IMHO it's an Evans vs Menchov race currently with the final TT looming. But we will have to see what the climbers can do on Tuesday and Wednesday. Five more "HC" catagory climbs over two days with the last being a mountain top finish on Wednesday. (HC = Beyond Catagory climb, so tough that it's beyond the rating system for a climb.) So, plenty of chances for Kohl, Schleck, Sastre and even Valverde to put time in on the TT fav's.
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Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:14 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:By the way, I have watched it live every day and it has been a great race so far.

If watched it this morning, one thing I think we'll agree on is that the Tour de France is the world's most beautiful sporting venue. By the way, who do you pick to win?


It is great to watch with the wonderful vistas, and superb drama. It really exciting to watch the peloton swoop down on the the leaders in the last few kilometers. As to who will win, until today, I would have bet on Evans. But, he looked a bit off at the end. He still is my favorite, however, in the next two days after the rest day, he will have to do better or the TT won't matter.
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:54 am

Two things, one on the PEDs and one on the race:

Menchov should be the favorite except for Menchov -- he is not as good a rider technically as the others. In an earlier stage he missed a split that he should not have missed and had to push his team very hard to lose only 38 seconds (I think that is the right number). Then, in an attack that might well have changed the race a lot he crashed because he did not manage the terrain/road. He had a big gap very quickly and it was much further down the mountain with enough time to make for big gaps; he finally got some gap but later and with the after-effects of the fall hurting him some.

It would seem the he and Evans have the combination of climbing ability and experience in racing Grand Tours. However, with so many in the top minute and with three of them climbers, I think that no one is going to 'win' the Tour over the next two days but that several riders are going to 'lose' the Tour, and the E/M/VdV trio are the most likely to lose it with the trio of Alp stages taking a toll on the ability to stay with the climbers.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jul08/jul21news2

One the PEDs side, the French testing agency is the one catching the CEREA/generation 3 EPO. It seems like they are less constrained by the technical protocol -- the new EPO has a different signature and is not being declared 'positive' by the official WADA criteria even though it is detected. Maybe the tests results will be over-ruled later but the riders will have been tossed and disgraced and it seems likely that no major team will pick up these riders again. Further, since the test criteria can be enhanced after-the-fact (as with The Clear) it will probably pass muster eventually. In the piece below, it says that the authorities are 'sitting on' some samples that are the new EPO but that the test do not yet classify them as +. Do others here agree with my guess that these might eventually be ruled + by enhanced criteria.

"A report by the BBC has claimed that (WADA) is failing to catch a large number of athletes using EPO due to a flawed criteria by which samples are declared positive. The report also highlights the growing problem of bio-similar EPOs - those which have a slightly different molecular fingerprint to regular EPO and therefore may not produce a positive sample under WADA's current criteria.

According to Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, an anti-doping expert who oversees the internal testing programs for both CSC-Saxo Bank and Astana, WADA laboratories are sitting on "a mountain of positive EPO" from athletes that have not failed a test. Dr Damsgaard inspected the electronic profiles, or gels as they are known, of five samples declared negative by a WADA laboratory, and said they showed clear signs of EPO being present.

"It was very obvious that the gels were very un-natural or very different from natural distributions," Damsgaard told the BBC. "But I also saw that they were declared negative because they didn't fulfil the WADA criteria of a positive test; although they looked suspicious and had no natural bands at all, they were still declared negative."
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Postby Jnathletics » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:51 am

26mi235 wrote:Two things, one on the PEDs and one on the race:

Menchov should be the favorite except for Menchov -- he is not as good a rider technically as the others. In an earlier stage he missed a split that he should not have missed and had to push his team very hard to lose only 38 seconds (I think that is the right number). ...


I think your talking about this.
Crash Splits Peloton
With about 26km to go there was a crash in the peloton. Gomez (SDV) was the worst affected but Sprick (BTL) and Sorensen (CSC) also came down. It prompted a split in the peloton. Menchov (RAB) and Ricco (SDV) were in the second group. Quickstep teamed up at the front of the first group to set a furious tempo. With 20km to go, Frischkorn, Dumoulin, Feillu and Longo Borghini led the yellow jersey’s peloton by 4’10” and Menchov’s group (which also included Ricco) by 4’35”.


I guess it's bad tactics not always staying at the front of the peloton, but it's more bad luck to get stuck behind one of those bad crashes. Especially at the end of a stage where the peloton is going so fast that it's hard to catch back up.
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:06 am

Jnathletics wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Two things, one on the PEDs and one on the race:

Menchov should be the favorite except for Menchov -- he is not as good a rider technically as the others. In an earlier stage he missed a split that he should not have missed and had to push his team very hard to lose only 38 seconds (I think that is the right number). ...


I think your talking about this.
Crash Splits Peloton
With about 26km to go there was a crash in the peloton. Gomez (SDV) was the worst affected but Sprick (BTL) and Sorensen (CSC) also came down. It prompted a split in the peloton. Menchov (RAB) and Ricco (SDV) were in the second group. Quickstep teamed up at the front of the first group to set a furious tempo. With 20km to go, Frischkorn, Dumoulin, Feillu and Longo Borghini led the yellow jersey’s peloton by 4’10” and Menchov’s group (which also included Ricco) by 4’35”.


I guess it's bad tactics not always staying at the front of the peloton, but it's more bad luck to get stuck behind one of those bad crashes. Especially at the end of a stage where the peloton is going so fast that it's hard to catch back up.


You make your luck. Armstrong may or may not have used PEDs but across his seven wins he essentially did not crash, even when given the 'opportunity' when Beloki destructed in front of him on the decent (well he caught the loop of the bag but...). He also virtually never got caught out a la Menchov, despite crashes etc (he did have one such instance and lost 10 or so seconds when the guy in front of him went down a little before the end). He adroitly took advantage of a big crash on the causeway of Stage 1 of his first GC victory by organizing his team and getting cooperation from other teams in the front part to put six minutes on the back part, which included the guy who finished second in the Tour -- six minutes back.

LeMond won Tours because he was the best prepared to use whatever was available rather than what the Europeans 'always did' (e.g., the aero bars in his TT win into Paris). Armstrong took this several steps further and used a thousand little things that added up to seconds and seconds, and seconds. Ullrich was too naturally good to worry as much about those details (although Riis was better at it and it shows in what might now be the best run/managed team CSC). Lots of people on the team dedicated chunks of their year to the little details on bikes, timetrial positions, riding details, scouting details etc.
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:22 am

There is a little more on the positive tests for the new (genreation 3) EPO CERA-type.

Riccardo Riccò was caught by a special molecule placed in the banned substance he is said to have taken, the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio today. John Fahey said that Roche Pharmaceuticals had placed a special molecule in the product CERA when it developed the drug, which would help the anti-doping authorities to detect its illegal use.

Of course, maybe the chemist will make there own version, but that might be trickier and more illegal.
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Postby Jnathletics » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:13 am

Well I was wrong looks like Sastre will win. Up by 1:30+ going into time trial and is holding it. Has only lost :23 to Evans at 2nd time check.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:31 am

What was Frank Schleck thinking? Did he really think they would let him get away with drafting?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:05 am

If Christian Vandevelde hadn't lost 2:36 on stage 16, the day he crashed on the descent, he'd be on the podium today.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:00 am

I just saw a Cadel Evans interview in which a reporter asked him, "What's the difference between first and second in your mind?" His answer, "Many, many hundreds of thousands of Euros." I guess you can't fault him for lack of candor. :wink:
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Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:30 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I just saw a Cadel Evans interview in which a reporter asked him, "What's the difference between first and second in your mind?" His answer, "Many, many hundreds of thousands of Euros." I guess you can't fault him for lack of candor. :wink:


That sounds about right.

A great Tour. I am already looking forward to next year.
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Postby Steeplechaser » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:29 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I just saw a Cadel Evans interview in which a reporter asked him, "What's the difference between first and second in your mind?" His answer, "Many, many hundreds of thousands of Euros." I guess you can't fault him for lack of candor. :wink:


That sounds about right.

A great Tour. I am already looking forward to next year.


I ignored it more than I have in the past fifteen years, then decided I had to watch L'Alp d'Huez. It was a great stage, and my wife (an avid francophile) and I watched the time trial Saturday and she chastized me for not getting up early enough to watch the final stage (still saw most of it). Maybe we really can "Take back the Tour" ?
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