Drugs: What's Acceptable And What Isn't [split]


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Postby tafnut » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:14 am

Powell wrote:
tafnut wrote:
Powell wrote:And in the past he stated every single East European athlete at the international level was using drugs. AFAIR, that post was never removed.

REALLY? Every single one? I don't remember that and if I implied it, I recant.

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... torder=asc


tafnut wrote:because they were state-run programs and EVERYONE was in the program, they're all (relatively speaking) guilty. In America (and similarly 'free' states) the option to cheat was a personal one, so we're not sure how many did it (we CAN assume many). That's all one can infer from my statement.


While I abashedly admit Sloppy Thinking, apologize, and ask forgiveness, I would like to clarify what I said, by adding that - there was 'A Program' and, generally speaking, the INTENT of The Program was to get everybody on board, but my error (and I am sincerely sorry) is that not EVERYONE could have been on the program, if only for logistical reasons, but now I will add that there were probably coaches and athletes that successfully resisted The Program as well. I personally think that ALL the elite EG women WERE on PEDs, but that is clearly opinion. You may recall a previous post where I revealed a great affectiton and empathy for Germans (having lived there several times) and it grieves me to think how they were abused. I am not happy to think they were ALL (EG women of the 70s and 80s) cheaters.

Thanks for finding that link - I learn best from my own mistakes.
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Postby bekeselassie » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:28 am

tafnut wrote:While I abashedly admit Sloppy Thinking, apologize, and ask forgiveness, I would like to clarify what I said, by adding that - there was 'A Program' and, generally speaking, the INTENT of The Program was to get everybody on board, but my error (and I am sincerely sorry) is that not EVERYONE could have been on the program, if only for logistical reasons, but now I will add that there were probably coaches and athletes that successfully resisted The Program as well. I personally think that ALL the elite EG women WERE on PEDs, but that is clearly opinion. You may recall a previous post where I revealed a great affectiton and empathy for Germans (having lived there several times) and it grieves me to think how they were abused. I am not happy to think they were ALL (EG women of the 70s and 80s) cheaters.

Thanks for finding that link - I learn best from my own mistakes.


(Sigh!)

I think it's best that we all get ready for this kind of back-pedaling rant in the coming year. :roll: :P
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:39 am

tafnut wrote: The East Bloc countries were in ONE system - Soviet communism - and although the system varied from country to country, the GOVERNMENT 'enabled' PED usage.


They were not one system at all, you've just said yourself it varied from country toc country. Each Warsaw pact country had it's own version of Soviet communism; they weren't all puppet governments. In practice what happened in East Germany does not mean the same went on in Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:42 am

tafnut wrote:While I abashedly admit Sloppy Thinking, apologize, and ask forgiveness, I would like to clarify what I said, by adding that - there was 'A Program' and, generally speaking, the INTENT of The Program was to get everybody on board, but my error (and I am sincerely sorry) is that not EVERYONE could have been on the program, if only for logistical reasons, but now I will add that there were probably coaches and athletes that successfully resisted The Program as well.


Mhm, I could almost believe that's what you wanted to say all along, were it not for your earlier post in the thread I linked, where you said you considered all Eastern Bloc performances worthless.
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Postby gh » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:44 am

Andrea_T wrote:To tafnut, the FACT is there was systematic doping in the US during the same period. Might not be the same system, but it was there, and plain to see.

And now Marion Jones, Kelly White, Torri Edwards, Christie Gaines, L Tasha Jenkins, Inger Miller...the backbone of the US sprint team for a decade, all failed tests (see gh, I'm within the rules!)....


The mention of Miller is a tad unfair. Her "positive" was for caffeine, and calmer heads have since prevailed and removed that as a bannable offense.

And not to split semantic hairs, but Jenkins did not fail any test. By binding decision that's the case.
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Postby Pego » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:56 am

gh wrote:
Andrea_T wrote:To tafnut, the FACT is there was systematic doping in the US during the same period. Might not be the same system, but it was there, and plain to see.

And now Marion Jones, Kelly White, Torri Edwards, Christie Gaines, L Tasha Jenkins, Inger Miller...the backbone of the US sprint team for a decade, all failed tests (see gh, I'm within the rules!)....


The mention of Miller is a tad unfair. Her "positive" was for caffeine, and calmer heads have since prevailed and removed that as a bannable offense.

And not to split semantic hairs, but Jenkins did not fail any test. By binding decision that's the case.


So is Edwards.

My name was mentioned earlier in the thread, so I'd like to re-state my position.
Prior to 1968 I am not aware of systematic doping program in Czechoslovakia. Post-1968 I am clueless.
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Postby Matt » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:27 am

Wasn't Miller one of the athletes caught up in the pre Sydney 2000 fiasco, though (thus her bizarre behaviour once the Games began)?
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:38 am

Matt my god we must be psychopathically linked :P
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Postby MJD » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:38 am

For anyone who gets caught for anything that was against the rules at the time no matter how minor some may view the infractions, I just default to the position that that is all they got caught for and were doing other stuff and that includes the 19 year old Gatlin. I don't shed any tears for any of them. Others can give them the benefit of the doubt but I am not so naive(as some have been around here with other athletes).
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Postby gh » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:58 am

Andrea_T has decided to take a vacation. Next?
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Postby marknhj » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:22 am

MJD wrote:For anyone who gets caught for anything that was against the rules at the time no matter how minor some may view the infractions, I just default to the position that that is all they got caught for and were doing other stuff and that includes the 19 year old Gatlin. I don't shed any tears for any of them. Others can give them the benefit of the doubt but I am not so naive(as some have been around here with other athletes).


That is my view too...
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Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:56 am

marknhj wrote:
MJD wrote:For anyone who gets caught for anything that was against the rules at the time no matter how minor some may view the infractions, I just default to the position that that is all they got caught for and were doing other stuff and that includes the 19 year old Gatlin. I don't shed any tears for any of them. Others can give them the benefit of the doubt but I am not so naive(as some have been around here with other athletes).


That is my view too...


I respectfully disagree. The Gatlin case is one of a prescribed med and there is an official trail that says that it was NOT a deliberate violation. "violations" such as for caffeine (and other 'common' substances), that were later removed tell us little about generalized intent, in my opinion.

I do have a question about how one might talk about a situation where Frank Shorter has pushed on the situation with Cierpinski -- I do not know about WC and would not be speculating but is it feasible to talk about Shorter's comments or about those of Werner Franke (German involved in anti-doping crusade)?
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Postby Mennisco » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:49 am

Powell wrote:
gh wrote:tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy, which is quite simple: don't be implicating individuals.


In that case, why is it OK to suggest, as Tafnut did above that GDR had a policy of "if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet"? .


Yu vill eat za pill. Yu vill not leave za homeland or ve vill shoot u.
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Postby malmo » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:31 am

Mennisco wrote:
Powell wrote:
gh wrote:tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy, which is quite simple: don't be implicating individuals.


In that case, why is it OK to suggest, as Tafnut did above that GDR had a policy of "if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet"? .


Yu vill eat za pill. Yu vill not leave za homeland or ve vill shoot u.


Und zee vill be varingz zee itchyscratchysuitzundpantzen madez frumz zee Pottsdam, vile zee uzzerz vill be varingz zee smoozuntsexysuitzundpantzen smugglez inz frumz zee Dusseldorf.

Zu vontz itchybuttz? Zu getz itchybuttz!
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