Four-Year Ban for Gatlin


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Postby MJD » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:22 pm

eldrick wrote:then why bring it up ?


I didn't. I gave my default position(convicted liar/cheat has the burden of proof shifted to them) which was challenged by a bunch of legalistic arguments which, as we all know, has nothing to do with common sense. Criminal vs civil so to speak.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:24 pm

marknhj wrote:eldy - would you like to see PEDs allowed in T&F?


no

just interested in rules being followed properly
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Postby MJD » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:25 pm

eldrick wrote:
marknhj wrote:eldy - would you like to see PEDs allowed in T&F?


no

just interested in rules being followed properly


Who is saying that they shouldn't be?
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:27 pm

MJD wrote:
eldrick wrote:then why bring it up ?


I didn't. I gave my default position(convicted liar/cheat has the burden of proof shifted to them) which was challenged by a bunch of legalistic arguments which, as we all know, has nothing to do with common sense. Criminal vs civil so to speak.


in gatlin's case, he had -ve tests etween '02 - '06 & no mention of any missed tests during that period

what more do you have expected him to have done to have "shifted the burden of proof" ?
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Postby EPelle » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:28 pm

Followed properly...by whom, the athletes? You weren:t interested in Rule 167-0, which is in direct relation to Gatlin:s.
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Postby marknhj » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:32 pm

eldrick wrote:
MJD wrote:
eldrick wrote:then why bring it up ?


what more do you have expected him to have done to have "shifted the burden of proof" ?


To have not taken drugs at any time during his career, perhaps?
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:36 pm

marknhj wrote:
eldrick wrote:
MJD wrote:
eldrick wrote:then why bring it up ?


what more do you have expected him to have done to have "shifted the burden of proof" ?


To have not taken drugs at any time during his career, perhaps?


you mean prescribed medication ?
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:42 pm

EPelle wrote:Followed properly...by whom, the athletes? You weren:t interested in Rule 167-0, which is in direct relation to Gatlin:s.


from the authorities

from dissenter's statement :

The specific instruction of USAFT and USADA for athletes with ADD regarding the standard of care (i.e., merely stop taking your medication before competition) would override the general language of IAAF Rule 55 (5.1). This is particularly the case
because IAAF Rule 55 (5.3) creates an ambiguity when its states that a TUE would not be granted for Out-of-Competition use.
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Postby marknhj » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:42 pm

eldrick wrote:
marknhj wrote:
eldrick wrote:
MJD wrote:
eldrick wrote:then why bring it up ?


what more do you have expected him to have done to have "shifted the burden of proof" ?


To have not taken drugs at any time during his career, perhaps?


you mean prescribed medication ?


If he followed the rules that's fine, of course. I really am curious about this next question. As a fan of T&F are you interested in seeing Gatlin compete again, after all the legal stuff has been resolved? Assuming his best case scenario and he's back on the track this year.
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Postby MJD » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:43 pm

el, forget the first bust, the second bust is enough for us to feel that burden of proof AS FAR AS WE ARE CONCERNED has shifted to him. Are you not getting that is what we are saying? Neither one of us isn't saying the legal process shouldn't play itself out.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:46 pm

if he's served the ban, then i have as much objection to him competing as any european/african/asian who also returns to competition after serving the appropriate punishment for a drug +ve
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Postby marknhj » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:50 pm

eldrick wrote:if he's served the ban, then i have as much objection to him competing as any european/african/asian who also returns to competition after serving the appropriate punishment for a drug +ve


That wasn't my question, apologies if I was less than clear. Do you, personally, as a fan of T&F, have an interest in watching him run on the track again?
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:50 pm

MJD wrote:el, forget the first bust, the second bust is enough for us to feel that burden of proof AS FAR AS WE ARE CONCERNED has shifted to him. Are you not getting that is what we are saying? Neither one of us isn't saying the legal process shouldn't play itself out.


& what precisely is your time-frame for this burden of proof ?

'02 - '06 : all -ve tests, so has that satisfied the burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

if/when he returns & the remainder of his career until retirement has -ve tests, does that satisfy your burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:53 pm

marknhj wrote:
eldrick wrote:if he's served the ban, then i have as much objection to him competing as any european/african/asian who also returns to competition after serving the appropriate punishment for a drug +ve


That wasn't my question, apologies if I was less than clear. Do you, personally, as a fan of T&F, have an interest in watching him run on the track again?


yes

i'd be interested in watching him
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Postby MJD » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:53 pm

I am not going to repeat myself about the negative tests. You keep bringing up legalistic arguments and that isn't what I am talking about here.
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Postby EPelle » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:53 pm

eldrick wrote:& what precisely is your time-frame for this burden of proof ?

'02 - '06 : all -ve tests, so has that satisfied the burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

if/when he returns & the remainder of his career until retirement has -ve tests, does that satisfy your burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

Seriously, does 167-0 mean nothing to you with respect to your particular point-of-view and presumptions?
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:55 pm

MJD wrote:I am not going to repeat myself about the negative tests. You keep bringing up legalistic arguments and that isn't what I am talking about here.


then suggest something constructive
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:01 pm

marknhj wrote:That wasn't my question, apologies if I was less than clear. Do you, personally, as a fan of T&F, have an interest in watching him run on the track again?

Not that you asked, but put me down for a yes. At this level I believe that most participants in most pro sports are guilty of PED use, some regularly, some circumstantially (injury rehabs, etc.) Gatlin was one of the unlucky ones who got caught. He deserved a two year vacation (the initial test failure being a clerical issue) and should be back on the track later this year.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:03 pm

EPelle wrote:
eldrick wrote:& what precisely is your time-frame for this burden of proof ?

'02 - '06 : all -ve tests, so has that satisfied the burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

if/when he returns & the remainder of his career until retirement has -ve tests, does that satisfy your burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

Seriously, does 167-0 mean nothing to you with respect to your particular point-of-view and presumptions?


i got my answer from 55(5.3)
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Postby MJD » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:07 pm

eldrick wrote:
MJD wrote:I am not going to repeat myself about the negative tests. You keep bringing up legalistic arguments and that isn't what I am talking about here.


then suggest something constructive


We are talking about something to change my view which seem to bother you. I say again, not my problem.
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Postby marknhj » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:07 pm

bad hammy wrote:
marknhj wrote:That wasn't my question, apologies if I was less than clear. Do you, personally, as a fan of T&F, have an interest in watching him run on the track again?

Not that you asked, but put me down for a yes. At this level I believe that most participants in most pro sports are guilty of PED use, some regularly, some circumstantially (injury rehabs, etc.) Gatlin was one of the unlucky ones who got caught. He deserved a two year vacation (the initial test failure being a clerical issue) and should be back on the track later this year.


"Gatlin was one of the unlucky ones to get caught"? You can't be serious in writing that, surely?

eldy - I think I just realised something. You want him and others back so you can get legit, un-PEded times, to stick in your formulas, right?!

I could care less if anyone caught, even once, ever sets foot on a track again. These people are ruining our sport and I resent them for it.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:10 pm

MJD wrote:
eldrick wrote:
MJD wrote:I am not going to repeat myself about the negative tests. You keep bringing up legalistic arguments and that isn't what I am talking about here.


then suggest something constructive


We are talking about something to change my view which seem to bother you. I say again, not my problem.


believe you me, i have no bother whatsoever on your views on this matter
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Postby EPelle » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:11 pm

eldrick wrote:
EPelle wrote:
eldrick wrote:& what precisely is your time-frame for this burden of proof ?

'02 - '06 : all -ve tests, so has that satisfied the burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

if/when he returns & the remainder of his career until retirement has -ve tests, does that satisfy your burden of proof for that time-frame for you ?

Seriously, does 167-0 mean nothing to you with respect to your particular point-of-view and presumptions?


i got my answer from 55(5.3)

This is why MJD thought it was funny, and, incedentally, so do I. Rule 167-0 trumps 55(5,3) any time day or night year after year... as a matter of fact, it was written in the spring of 1997.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:16 pm

not according to chris campbell it doesn't
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Postby EPelle » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:18 pm

I:ll leave it open to the floor for someone else to explain it to you.
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:19 pm

marknhj wrote:"Gatlin was one of the unlucky ones to get caught"? You can't be serious in writing that, surely?

Serious as a heart attack . . .
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Postby eldrick » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:27 pm

EPelle wrote:I:ll leave it open to the floor for someone else to explain it to you.


perhaps chris campbell can explain it to you...
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Postby gh » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:02 pm

eldrick/EPelle.... pity neither of you apparently took me at my word yesterday when I said no more back-and-forth bickering, or else..... please enjoy your week away from the keyboard.
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Postby EPelle04 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:08 pm

Bickering wasn:t from this side as you should be able to plainly see.... My posts followed the course of the conversation and weren:t attacking or vengeful. Point reservedly taken, however.
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Postby guru » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:24 pm

Hmm. Not my board, and I know the ice was thin from yesterday, but I have to agree with epelle. fwiw
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Postby mojo » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:59 pm

Once again the rules of this board are so bizzarre and so inconsistently appiled that it is laughable.

There have been far worse back and forths than have been going on between Eldy and Epelle (and I see no name calling or bickering from Epelle at all).


Yeah it is your board blah blah but it is pretty hard to respect the rules when they:
a) make no sense
b) aren't applied uniformly.

With over 20 years in the trenches of substitute teaching I can safely say you would get eaten alive by a bunch of grade 8ers.

(which of course is the demographics of this board!) :P
Last edited by mojo on Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Flumpy » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:59 pm

gh wrote:eldrick/EPelle.... pity neither of you apparently took me at my word yesterday when I said no more back-and-forth bickering, or else..... please enjoy your week away from the keyboard.


Have you banned eldrick???

It's gopnna feel like a holiday around here for the next week :D
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