Others To Pay Price For Thánou's Suspected Crimes?


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Postby mump boy » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:26 pm

i see no problem in simply saying we are not awarding retro active medals to people who have failed drug tests

what's the problem with that ??
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Postby eldrick » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:34 pm

kamikaze7 wrote:I highly doubt that if I go to the dope board from 2-3 yrs ago, I will find evidence that those two were tested 10 times a year as you claim. It’s a needle in a haystack kind of thing. Plus the message board you suggest basically amounts to the opinions of forummers. Nothing substantial. Like I said, opinions are free and everyone has one. I can easily claim that Flo Jo was tested 20 times in 1988. But where’s the proof ?


there are ancient links in those dope forums - iirc, one quoting kk stating he'd been tested numerous times between start '04 - athens

as for flojo, the only way she couda been tested 20 times in '88 was if she'd competed at 20 meets that year - no random testing in '88
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Postby GeorgiaFan1 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:27 pm

I'm beginning to think that results should stand as soon as the post-competition tests are passed. Records can be removed, but this could get ridiculous. And how far back will we go.? Will we undo 1996 results if we find that someone is dirty in 2008?
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:27 pm

Pego wrote:
bad hammy wrote:
Pego wrote:Disagree on all accounts. Flo-Jo, while not a world beater, was not "mediocre" before 1988. She had been an OG/WC medalist, ran sub 11/22.

26mi235 wrote:Is your 'evidence' of wrong doing just that she ran super times?

I see those blinders you folks are wearing are doing their job . . .


If requiring evidence of cheating equals to wearing blinders, so be it.

That is a wonderfully naïve comment in this case.
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Postby mump boy » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:12 am

GeorgiaFan1 wrote:I'm beginning to think that results should stand as soon as the post-competition tests are passed. Records can be removed, but this could get ridiculous. And how far back will we go.? Will we undo 1996 results if we find that someone is dirty in 2008?


no, because there is a statute of limitations of 7 years as i understand it MJ originally admitted drug abuse from 99 but changed it to 00 when she realised she couldn't be done for 8 years ago.

anyway no-one has suggested retroactive penalties for + tests only if there is evidence or the athlete has admitted past drug taking.
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Postby eldrick » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:23 am

mump boy wrote:as i understand it MJ originally admitted drug abuse from 99 but changed it to 00 when she realised she couldn't be done for 8 years ago


not sure if that's true

'99 was before balco & thg, so if mj was on any drugs then, it wouda been likely to have been "standard" ones like ole-style anabolics, etc

she never tested +ve for these between '97 - '99, so we'd have to go with her test results
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Postby EPelle » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:54 am

Marion Jones, in a letter to family and friends wrote:In 1999, my track coach Trevor Graham provided me with some nutritional supplements. There is one in particular that he called 'flaxseed oil.' He advised me to take this supplement by placing a few drops under my tongue and then swallow. He told me that it was necessary to add this to my diet so that I could be in peak running shape. I, unfortunately, never asked him any questions about it. I trusted him and never thought for one second that he would jeopardize my career, nor his own. He told me to administer it by placing a few drops under my tongue for a few seconds and then to swallow. He supplied me this for the 1999 and 2000 seasons.


1999 for all intents and purposes wasn:t pre-BALCO.

Victor Conte wrote:In the spring of 1999, I was at another bodybuilding show when someone offered me a clear liquid. I won't tell you who gave it to me. All I'll say is he called it "The Stuff." I assumed it was some sort of pro-hormone. It was norbolethone, the first generation of "The Clear."


According to Conte, Montgomery was on PEDs pre-2000, and had been using whilst a trainee under Graham, who was also coaching Jones.
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Postby Matt » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:16 am

Does Jones really think that no-one believes she was using PEDs throughout her 'comeback' (1997 onwards)?

I wish that all of her results had been annulled. 7.31 from a woman with no technique? 10.65/21.62? Gimme a break.
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Postby eldrick » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:44 am

EPelle wrote:
Marion Jones, in a letter to family and friends wrote:In 1999, my track coach Trevor Graham provided me with some nutritional supplements. There is one in particular that he called 'flaxseed oil.' He advised me to take this supplement by placing a few drops under my tongue and then swallow. He told me that it was necessary to add this to my diet so that I could be in peak running shape. I, unfortunately, never asked him any questions about it. I trusted him and never thought for one second that he would jeopardize my career, nor his own. He told me to administer it by placing a few drops under my tongue for a few seconds and then to swallow. He supplied me this for the 1999 and 2000 seasons.


1999 for all intents and purposes wasn:t pre-BALCO.

Victor Conte wrote:In the spring of 1999, I was at another bodybuilding show when someone offered me a clear liquid. I won't tell you who gave it to me. All I'll say is he called it "The Stuff." I assumed it was some sort of pro-hormone. It was norbolethone, the first generation of "The Clear."


unfortunately, this is not consistent with arnold's admission :

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/press/200 ... .press.htm

In pleading guilty, Mr. Arnold, 39, of Champaign, Illinois, admitted that between June 1, 2000, and September 3, 2003, while working as an organic chemist in Champaign, Illinois, he knowingly participated in a conspiracy to illegally distribute steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs to professional athletes. Mr. Arnold admitted that as a part of the conspiracy, he developed, manufactured, and distributed the following substances: (1) a synthetic and undetectable steroid-like derivative, tetrahydragestrinone, also known as “THG or “The Clear;”


as he was working hand-in-glove with vic at the time, it is inconceivable he started to distribute thg at a later date then conte did
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Postby EPelle » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:09 am

Regarding your argument, recall the story. I:m citing both Arnold (below) and Conte (above), or, in other words, not a script the US DOJ put together.

"It all started because Victor Conte called me up and asked me if any of the prohormones I made could be used by athletes and not be detected. I told him, You shouldn't use them because I can't guarantee [that they want to be detected]. But this was a friend, a guy whose knowledge I respected, and so I also told him. A better way would be to try [norbolothone, which Arnold had synthesized in 1988], because I don't think it will show up on any drug test. And that sort of opened up Pandora box" Patrick Arnold says,
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Postby Mennisco » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am

mojo wrote:The name calling posters get around here is over the top at times but what is far worse IMHO is the names athletes get called by certain people.

IF I ran the board THAT would get you banned immediately.We have a choice whether to put up with getting called an idiot but athletes in the sport the magazine and this board should honour and respect do not deserve it.

(unless they are drug cheats and even then name calling is not really appropriate-though YES I am guilty too).


Well I must say that the notion of an athlete consigning an airborne shag to what is muttered on this board is transparently delusional. Not exactly major media converage, or even minor.
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Postby eldrick » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:52 am

EPelle wrote:in other words, not a script the US DOJ put together


i see that your 4y of fanatical belief in the feds competence has suddenly gone down the tubes :roll:

i see you conveniently ignored the following part of fed quote :

(2) Desoxymethyltestosterone, also known as “DMT,” or “Madol;” and (3) norbolethone, an anabolic steroid


it now appears to boil down to 2 possibilities :

1) feds are idiots

they are so incompetent, that after all the grilling of arnold, analysing all the documents, etc, they put the wrong date on a charge

& by implication to this argument, mj's confession is likely true account


2) mj's confession is flawed

& the feds have got the correct date from their grilling of arnold as to when his involvemen began

what's it to be ?
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Postby EPelle » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:16 am

eldrick wrote:i see you conveniently ignored the following part of fed quote :

(2) Desoxymethyltestosterone, also known as “DMT,” or “Madol;” and (3) norbolethone, an anabolic steroid

Actually, you left that part off your original quote. It was not an omission on my part. I believed in the Feds then, and still do now. You:re interested in quoting a DOJ briefing. I:m interested in what the two characters in the story have to say about their involvement.

Concluding this two-person discussion which should have not made it to page three:

"as he was working hand-in-glove with vic at the time, it is inconceivable he started to distribute thg at a later date then conte did"

Norbolethone wasn:t THG, and Arnold switched Conte from norbolethone to THG in 2001. Arnold then packaged THG as the clear and sold to other coaches, agents, athletes. He did, in fact, distribute this "new" drug after supplying to Conte, when Conte had saturated the market and made a mess of things.
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Postby gh » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:31 am

Time to take your pissing match off-line boys. Thanks.
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Postby EPelle » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:05 am

Gladly, sir.

One was trying to throw water balloons in the dark and call people names when they didn:t care to get wet...naturally, not having an umbrella to shield the unwanted rain, things got sloppy and wet. The only pissing here was done in the perps pants when the cops, watching wearily from above, yelled, "hej, you, juvenile... cease and desist, or be thrown in the huskow".

Point very well taken. Don:t feed the contrary trolls.
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Postby eldrick » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:12 am

i see you didn't pay any heed to gh's instructions to cease on here...
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Postby Snation » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:02 pm

Jones became engaged to known 'roider CJ Hunter in 1996. She started training with known steroid-pusher Trevor Graham in 1998 (or so). She became associated with Victor Conte and BALCO in summer of 2000.

There is evidence Graham, through Tim Montgomery met Conte in 2000 too. However it is highly likely his use of pharmaceutics began long before 'Project World Record'.

If Jones was clean from 1996 on, I would be very surprised, It's just that Conte refined doping to an art form in 2000 for Jones.
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Postby Jacksf » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:10 pm

Snation wrote:As I read it the evidence against Flo-Jo is theoretical at best.

Far more disconcerting would be those GDR records like Koch's set by athletes who never tested positive, but ran for a very suspect regime.

If one wants to crush dopers, then that record should be obliterated.

If one uses circumstantial evidence, be prepared to throw out the baby with the bath at times.


The circumstantial evidence against FloJo is really quite strong, and follows the pattern of many known 'dopers'.
She had been competing for years, and had been pretty good, but never great. Her highest ranking had 5th in 200m and 6th in 100m. She took some time off.
She returned to the sprinting, and suddenly was the greatest of all-time, running other-worldy times.
She set her records, got her Olympic medals, random dope testing was instituted the next year, and she promptly retired.
Actually, that circumstantial evidence is about as strong as it gets.
Certainly as strong as the evidence against the E. Germans, because there is no 'before' and 'after' period with them to compare.
So you should heed your own advise about throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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