5 questions about Marion


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5 questions about Marion

Postby parkerrclay » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:23 pm

1. Did she even need to cheat? I saw her at age 16 and she was phenomenal..surely she wasn't doping then
2. She admitted to using in 1999 so was she clean before then? Her best times were mostly in '98
3. I hear she may get stripped of her gold medals, what about the East Germans, Chinese, etc? There are documents that many (most) of them cheated also
4. If Marion (with her talent) was using and "only" running 10.8s in '99 and '00, what does that say for everyone else that has run 10.8s or better. Are there any clean times in the top 20 ?
5. Is it possible that she used to give her extra confidence? Maybe she could have won in Sydney without but just used to guarantee victory. Or maybe she used because she knew Kelli White and many others were
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:08 pm

1. No

2. Funny thing - her timeline is BEFORE Conte said he started her on his program, so who knows.

3. At least as far as the East Germans are concerned, what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. I have no problem with them taking Jones' medals, but they should do the same for ALL athletes who have documented PED use.

4. It's interesting she seems to be the only athlete of note who didn't get markedly better on Conte's products, especially among the females.

5. Her choice of men in her life shows she needed all the confidence she could get.
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Postby westcoasttiger » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:25 pm

On point #1 I have heard for years she was using as prep. We do know that some of those around her then have been snared in the whole drug mess so its certainly more of a possibility than any of us care to admit. Many more HS kids use than one would imagine, mostly on the football side of things but still affects track and some women have used as well, usually by some zealous parent or coach.

If Marion is going to come clean I wish you would write an expose tell all book that details her whole use and what ever else she knows.
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Postby Friar » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:13 pm

1. Yes: if she wanted to approach the fictional 10.49.
3. Not likely: the others aren't admitting anything, MJ is.
Marion is going to come clean I wish you would write an expose tell all book that details her whole use and what ever else she knows.

I'm sure if she gets some good proposals, that can be arranged.
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby trackhead » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:53 pm

parkerrclay wrote:1. Did she even need to cheat? I saw her at age 16 and she was phenomenal..surely she wasn't doping then
2. She admitted to using in 1999 so was she clean before then? Her best times were mostly in '98
3. I hear she may get stripped of her gold medals, what about the East Germans, Chinese, etc? There are documents that many (most) of them cheated also
4. If Marion (with her talent) was using and "only" running 10.8s in '99 and '00, what does that say for everyone else that has run 10.8s or better. Are there any clean times in the top 20 ?
5. Is it possible that she used to give her extra confidence? Maybe she could have won in Sydney without but just used to guarantee victory. Or maybe she used because she knew Kelli White and many others were


4. Jacobs was "only" running 4flat (or there abouts).
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby LopenUupunut » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:07 am

parkerrclay wrote:3. I hear she may get stripped of her gold medals, what about the East Germans, Chinese, etc? There are documents that many (most) of them cheated also


No. There has been way too much cheating in T&F history for every cheater to be ever discovered (not to mention that lots of people both in USA and many European countries - possibly elsewhere as well - don't really want to know how many cheaters their history includes) so not much point to take away some doping medals and leave others. If you only have paint for half a wall, don't paint, the wall will look hideous. Better leave the old paint there even if it's already peeling off somewhere.
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Postby Jon » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:36 am

1. Sure, she had natural talent, but she was likely an early developer too, hence her world age bests. Hundreds of athletes break all sorts of age records without ever achieving anything as a senior. Had she not gone on the drugs, perhaps she'd just become a regular 11.0 kinda gal. But she wanted to be more than that.

2. Lol, use your brain.

3. There are documents that doping existed in the GDR, but very few documents actually link names up - that is why nothing can be done about it. If there were documents naming names, those athletes would have been stripped of their medals/records too.

4. Perhaps not.

5. See answer to #1.
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby Powell » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:59 am

parkerrclay wrote:1. Did she even need to cheat? I saw her at age 16 and she was phenomenal..


So were a lot of the GDR stars.

parkerrclay wrote:surely she wasn't doping then


I wouldn't be confident enough to use the word 'surely' here. Remember how she used Johnny Cochran's services to get out of a missed-test mess when she was in HS?
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Postby croflash » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:05 am

You never know when someone starts taking drugs. Why is there any reason to believe that someone can't take/didn't get drugs at the age of 16 ?
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby Andrea_T » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:08 am

Powell wrote:
parkerrclay wrote:1. Did she even need to cheat? I saw her at age 16 and she was phenomenal..


So were a lot of the GDR stars.



Precisely. Kerstin Behrendt was running super times at a very early age, clean. And then the GDR apparently pumped her with drugs, a lot more than the other women sprinters, yet she went backwards. It seems getting the right dosage is a black art, in more ways than one.

Maybe if Jones hadnt doped she'd still have been running 10.9 and 22.2 with her natural ability, times good enough to battle for gold.

Oh, and from what we can tell there are no documents that any Chinese athletes cheated. We just use common sense and our own eyes.
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Postby MJD » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:03 am

Of course she has been doped to the gills since HS.
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby Master Po » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:45 am

Andrea_T wrote:. We just use common sense and our own eyes.


Andrea_T,
A general observation (ie, not an observation about the content of posts you have made) about this principle: The problem with this approach is that our eyes and common sense are usually informed by all sorts of unacknowledged biases -- some athletes and athletic cultures get a free pass, other athletes and athletic cultures are assumed to be guilty. Some athletic cultures are assumed to be able to produce out of this world performances naturally, while with other athletic cultures the assumption is that their great performances are impossible. I see little evidence of consistent critical thought about these matters when I read and listen to T&F fans and other observers. Our common sense and eyes are often remarkably inconsistent in applying consistent critical thought to understanding what we see.
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Postby tafnut » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:51 am

MJD wrote:Of course she has been doped to the gills since HS.

If this is true (I have no way of knowing) and considering her young age when she ran those stellar times as a 15 year-old, there should be some criminal charges being brought up against the adults responsible. This is unconscionable.
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Postby AS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:32 am

tafnut wrote:
MJD wrote:Of course she has been doped to the gills since HS.

If this is true (I have no way of knowing) and considering her young age when she ran those stellar times as a 15 year-old, there should be some criminal charges being brought up against the adults responsible. This is unconscionable.


Why couldn't she herself be the one whose accountable, even at 15? Old enough to be tried as an adult? Who charges the parents of 15 year-olds if the embrace the world of hard licquor or hard-drugs?

Who were Jones' coaches/mentors/drivers at HS?
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby Thor » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:40 am

parkerrclay wrote:4. If Marion (with her talent) was using and "only" running 10.8s in '99 and '00, what does that say for everyone else that has run 10.8s or better. Are there any clean times in the top 20 ?

She was't technically efficient at all. She couldn't use all of what she had.
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby AS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:41 am

Thor wrote:She was't technically efficient at all. She couldn't use all of what she had.


Maybe she needed a decent coach.... oops....
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Postby mal » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:48 am

Jon wrote:1.
3. There are documents that doping existed in the GDR, but very few documents actually link names up - that is why nothing can be done about it. If there were documents naming names, those athletes would have been stripped of their medals/records too.

.


Renate Stecher should had her medals in and allow Raylene Boyle to be rightfully recognized.

I am a cynic when it comes to expecting justice even from fanatics like Dick Pound. In the end, they are all just politicians who weigh the organization above the athlete.

And surely the "fiction" of Flo Jo's times should be owned up to?
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Postby Powell » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:56 am

mal wrote:Renate Stecher should had her medals in and allow Raylene Boyle to be rightfully recognized.


And what makes you so sure Boyle was cleaner than Stecher?
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Postby mark » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:23 am

Is her 10.70 in Seville not just about as good as she ever was, altitude corrected ? Performance wise, I considered the margin of victory in Sydney to be the most awesome feat, an Olympic gold by that far!!!

That she was using in 1999 makes one thing make sense, her back injury over 200 was somewhat reminiscint of Chambers pulling up in the CG final. In fact Chambers is another athlete who probably got worse when using than when he was not, the clear worked miracles with some people and screwed others. Of course, at this point it is very hard to define the time periods of using and not-using.

This news depressed me, I always wanted Marion to be clean to have seen a superstar's career right from the beginning.
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Re: 5 questions about Marion

Postby CookyMonzta » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:56 am

parkerrclay wrote:1. Did she even need to cheat? I saw her at age 16 and she was phenomenal..surely she wasn't doping then
2. She admitted to using in 1999 so was she clean before then? Her best times were mostly in '98
3. I hear she may get stripped of her gold medals, what about the East Germans, Chinese, etc? There are documents that many (most) of them cheated also
4. If Marion (with her talent) was using and "only" running 10.8s in '99 and '00, what does that say for everyone else that has run 10.8s or better. Are there any clean times in the top 20 ?
5. Is it possible that she used to give her extra confidence? Maybe she could have won in Sydney without but just used to guarantee victory. Or maybe she used because she knew Kelli White and many others were


I wonder if she was afraid her bad back might give out again.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:31 am

mark wrote:Is her 10.70 in Seville not just about as good as she ever was, altitude corrected ? Performance wise, I considered the margin of victory in Sydney to be the most awesome feat, an Olympic gold by that far!!!

That she was using in 1999 makes one thing make sense, her back injury over 200 was somewhat reminiscint of Chambers pulling up in the CG final. In fact Chambers is another athlete who probably got worse when using than when he was not, the clear worked miracles with some people and screwed others. Of course, at this point it is very hard to define the time periods of using and not-using.

This news depressed me, I always wanted Marion to be clean to have seen a superstar's career right from the beginning.


In her letter she states that in 2001 she suddenly found she was not recovering like she had been. I think she was saying she only used in 1999-2000 and that clearly there were advantages in a training/recovery sense. Thus, she is saying that she did use in that interval. Note that this interval is most costly to her as it includes all the Olympic medals and one WC. She might be minimizing the duration but picked the worst years for herself (although this might relate to language in various contracts).

IIRC, a poster to this board with close knowledge of doping said that the effect was not always beneficial (in line with your comment)
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Postby eldrick » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:44 am

26mi235 wrote:IIRC, a poster to this board with close knowledge of doping said that the effect was not always beneficial (in line with your comment)


it was always a piss-weak steroid

it was derived from gestrinone, a drug for endometriosis :

http://emc.medicines.org.uk/emc/assets/ ... mentID=674

which has piss-weak anabolic properties

thg was developed because it was undetectable, not because it had more effective anabolic properties than the above

with such weak anabolics, you coud get anything from marginal improvement in times, to nothing, to slowing down, because all you may get is excessive fluid retention & increased mass

the chances it woud ever change a 11.0 gal to a 10.7 one are virtually zero
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Postby thunder » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:05 am

tafnut wrote:
MJD wrote:Of course she has been doped to the gills since HS.

If this is true (I have no way of knowing) and considering her young age when she ran those stellar times as a 15 year-old, there should be some criminal charges being brought up against the adults responsible. This is unconscionable.


Canadian cyclist Genevieve Jeanson was doped as an 16 yo by her coach André Aubut. She may have even been 15.

If MJ was with ambitious coaches at a young age, I would be suspicious.

This would have been unfathomable to me a few years ago when I was more ignorant.
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Postby einnod23 » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:09 am

6. Is Louisana Tech the 1994 NCAA Women's Hoops Champ?
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Postby jeremyp » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:13 am

In truth, even when she returned to the sport in which she had set world under-15 and under-16 bests before going to the University of North Carolina to play basketball (she played on the university's national title-winning team in 1994), Jones was already having to field awkward questions about the dreaded D word. At the age of 16 she had faced a four-year ban for failing to show up at a drugs test, but avoided any sanction with the assistance of the late Johnnie Cochran, the lawyer best known for successfully representing O J Simpson during his murder trial.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/general/ ... 033381.ece


Where there's smoke...?
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Answer to all your questions: - How Marion Jones was forced

Postby MattMarriott » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:29 am

Answer to all your questions: - How Marion Jones was forced to "confess" - the true story

When it comes to being jailed and being seperated from your daughters, it's easy for the illuminati to stage the total humiliation of the resistors
http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... hp?t=28016
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Postby tafnut » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:33 am

Man, those Illuminati guys are TRICKY!!!!
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Re: Answer to all your questions: - How Marion Jones was for

Postby Flumpy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:00 am

MattMarriott wrote:When it comes to being jailed and being seperated from your daughters, it's easy for the illuminati to stage the total humiliation of the resistors


I hate it when that happens :roll:
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Re: Answer to all your questions: - How Marion Jones was for

Postby mump boy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:43 am

Flumpy wrote:
MattMarriott wrote:When it comes to being jailed and being seperated from your daughters, it's easy for the illuminati to stage the total humiliation of the resistors


I hate it when that happens :roll:


especially as she doesn't have a daughter :? :?
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Re: Answer to all your questions: - How Marion Jones was for

Postby guru » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:48 am

mump boy wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
MattMarriott wrote:When it comes to being jailed and being seperated from your daughters, it's easy for the illuminati to stage the total humiliation of the resistors


I hate it when that happens :roll:


especially as she doesn't have a daughter :? :?



That's what they want you to think :wink:
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Postby Mennisco » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:37 am

Jon wrote:
3. There are documents that doping existed in the GDR, but very few documents actually link names up - that is why nothing can be done about it. If there were documents naming names, those athletes would have been stripped of their medals/records too.

.


Ruth Fuchs admitted on German television that she used steroids. Have they taken her 2 Olympic gold medals? Did the IAAF make a big stink about it? They didn't even produce a smell worthy of a flatulent flea. The whole thing is a disgusting joke.
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Postby Law dude » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:00 pm

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the IAAF's statute of limitations on admissions (and the IOC's as well under the WADA code) is 8 years. I don't know when Ruth Fuchs made this admission, but I imagine that if nothing has been done about it, that's because nothing can be done about it under the applicable rules.
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Marion

Postby parkerrclay » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:23 pm

that is stupid...so if Thanou admits in '09 that she used then she can keep her Sydney silver (or gold if Marion loses hers)...ridiculous
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Postby Powell » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:40 pm

Jon wrote:1. Sure, she had natural talent, but she was likely an early developer too, hence her world age bests. Hundreds of athletes break all sorts of age records without ever achieving anything as a senior. Had she not gone on the drugs, perhaps she'd just become a regular 11.0 kinda gal. But she wanted to be more than that.


I was just thinking of Angela Williams, who was pretty much as fast as Marion at the age of 15 and 16, but never progressed much after that
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Postby eldrick » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:13 pm

worth noting though that when marion emerged as an adult she was a giant compared to some of the others : 5'10

nothing scientific here, but if an age-group record holder emerges as an adult with her physique & likely stronger + longer stride than her opposition, i'd not be surprised at all if she runs great times & certainly demolish 11.00
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Re: Marion

Postby Law dude » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:41 am

Law dude wrote:As has been pointed out elsewhere, the IAAF's statute of limitations on admissions (and the IOC's as well under the WADA code) is 8 years. I don't know when Ruth Fuchs made this admission, but I imagine that if nothing has been done about it, that's because nothing can be done about it under the applicable rules.

parkerrclay wrote:that is stupid...so if Thanou admits in '09 that she used then she can keep her Sydney silver (or gold if Marion loses hers)...ridiculous

That's the way statutes of limitations work. There's a time at which things are final. The theory behind statutes of limitations is that at at a certain distance from an event, things are best left as they are. Perhaps the benefit of an 8-year statute is that at least at some point, we may learn truths that might otherwise be concealed forever.

In any event, it is what it is.
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Re: Marion

Postby bad hammy » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:47 am

Law dude wrote:Perhaps the benefit of an 8-year statute is that at least at some point, we may learn truths that might otherwise be concealed forever.

Interesting point. It gives us some point in time past which PED users could speak out without legal sanctions. Not that many ex-PED users are likely to 'come out' due to other personal problems which would then arise . . .
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