jazzcyclist wrote:The same also holds true for Barry Bonds. His peak years, 2001-2004, occurred before the drug testing policy went into effect.
And I have even less interest in Barry Bonds but surely when the drug testing procedures when into effect is irrelevant. It's whether they were legal at the time or not that counts.
Last edited by Flumpy on Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The state of sports is really sad. Kids no longer have heros who they can try to emulate. Now, there is always a question as to whether or not a superstar athlete has cheated to gain his superstar status. It is appearing that possibly more often than not, the superstars have worked outside the rules.
Our sport is being murdered by the cheats. My 15 year-old son and his friends, many of whom are very athletic, look at t&f as though it were body-building. The view it as nothing more than a bunch of drugies. They are opting to avoid the sport, instead playing soccer. Of course, soccer is likely not clean either.
I suppose it is just a reflection of society as a whole. The "everyone is doing it, so to compete I must do it" rationale is not unique to sport. We see it commonly in business as well. Greed and ego are very powerful forces.
Flumpy wrote:. . . but surely when the drug testing procedures when into effect is irrelevant. It's whether they were legal at the eime or not that counts/
So you are fine with any and all marks made by PED users who used PEDs prior to their being banned? It is not the use of the PED itself that bothers you, it is the arbitrary date when some governing body said 'no more'?
The sad thing about this latest track and field doping disclosure like all the previous ones is that it creates the false impression to the public that t&f is extraordinarily saturated in PEDS when in fact t&f testing by national governing bodies of western nations is far more rigorous testing than NFL/NBA/MLB testing in those same nations.
track and field is squeaky clean when compared to the NFL.
Jaack wrote:Pauline Davis Thompson is the Olympic champion!!!
She arrived at Sydney at the age of 34, dropping from the 400m to the 200m - she took. 2 off her PB of 8 years, then another to place second in the final BEHIND MJ!
At 34, the oldest sprint champion in the history of the sport(?)! Pauline Davis Thompson- What a legend.
No, I don't think so.
Have you anything more to add? You don't think she is the oldest? You don't think she's a legend? You don't think she was 34 years old or dropped her pb by .2???
paulthefan wrote:track and field is squeaky clean when compared to the NFL.
Sadly, the truth is, they're both infected. But the NFL can easily survive this mini-crisis (to them). It's the reality that this is a Major Crisis to us, that can fatally injure us at the top. We can become just like swimming and gymnastics: tons of age-group participation through age 18, and then . . . pffft . . . very little.
tafnut wrote:But the NFL can easily survive this mini-crisis (to them).
What mini-crisis?? The NFL is skating along without a problem in sight. IF they ever implemented WADA testing, on the other hand, the league would literally close down. They couldn't even field a single full squad consisting of only punters and place kickers who are clean.
tafnut wrote:But the NFL can easily survive this mini-crisis (to them).
What mini-crisis?? The NFL is skating along without a problem in sight. IF they ever implemented WADA testing, on the other hand, the league would literally close down. They couldn't even field a single full squad consisting of only punters and place kickers who are clean.
Steroids, HGH, et al in the NFL is going to be a nettle in their sides for some time to come. 95% of all the 300-lb linemen that can go sub-5.0 are doping (IMO) and enterprising reporters, out to make a name for themselves at any cost, will continue to find evidence. But it WILL stay just a MINI-crisis, because the NFL is rich and powerful enough to keep the lid on it. Same with the NBA and MLB.
I think the NFL is like body-building. The fans know the reality buy they don't care.
It may, in the end, be the only way sports that rely on as high level of athleticism (not as much skill) will survive - To have rules that aren't policed.
It may be the T&F is simply more concerned with "fair play" and enforcing fair play, than other professional sports.
tafnut wrote:But it WILL stay just a MINI-crisis, because the NFL is rich and powerful enough to keep the lid on it. Same with the NBA and MLB.
I hope you're not suggesting that T&F should be "keep[ing] the lid on" its current predicament.
Not at all. Just observing how the Big Leagues do it. I agree that MOST NFL/NBA/MLB fans would just as soon ignore the problem and let sleeping dogs lie. The only reason Bonds gets so much grief is that no one likes him to begin with. When Sosa and McGwire were in the PED spotlight, the apologists were out in force.
Cyril wrote:I think the NFL is like body-building. The fans know the reality buy they don't care.
It may, in the end, be the only way sports that rely on as high level of athleticism (not as much skill) will survive - To have rules that aren't policed.
It may be the T&F is simply more concerned with "fair play" and enforcing fair play, than other professional sports.
So we can have the best of all worlds by legalizing all of these PEDs. Have a nice level field for athletes to play on . . .
bad hammy wrote:So we can have the best of all worlds by legalizing all of these PEDs. Have a nice level field for athletes to play on . . .
The teensy problem with that is that ANYONE who wants to be competitive near the top would HAVE TO get on a major PED regimen. Given all the side effects that we know of, and the many ones we don't, isn't that asking a lot of the athletes? Even in the NFL/NBA/MLB there are many guys who don't want to, and don't have to be on PEDs, but the very nature of T&F is that you must be at the very top of the ladder to earn a living and EVERYONE at the top would have to be on PEDs. And then there's the problem of the Olympics being won by whoever has the best drugs. They could skip the whole T&F part and just give the medals to the winning pharmacists.
Benny wrote:But the issue of 7/8 years Statute of Limitations should never enable an athlete to say . . .
To stay on the extreme side, rapists can do this. So we are going to hold PED-using athletes to a stricter standard than rapists??
You are making the wrong comparison. If someone admits to something illegal that exonerates someone else that is in jail, are you saying that the statute of limitations would apply and that the case wouldn't reopen? That is the more appropriate comparison.
Jaack wrote:Pauline Davis Thompson is the Olympic champion!!!
She arrived at Sydney at the age of 34, dropping from the 400m to the 200m - she took. 2 off her PB of 8 years, then another to place second in the final BEHIND MJ!
At 34, the oldest sprint champion in the history of the sport(?)! Pauline Davis Thompson- What a legend.
No, I don't think so.
Have you anything more to add? You don't think she is the oldest? You don't think she's a legend? You don't think she was 34 years old or dropped her pb by .2???
Why did you put half of the post in Bold?
I can say what I am thinking when I read these facts.
If I did, my post would be pulled.
MJD wrote:You are making the wrong comparison. If someone admits to something illegal that exonerates someone else that is in jail, are you saying that the statute of limitations would apply and that the case wouldn't reopen? That is the more appropriate comparison.
I would think that getting a medal boost over eight years down the road is just about this close to being as useful and rewarding to the athlete as the posthumously reinstatement of the golds in Jim Thorpe's case. But that said I am starting to see that the artificial eight year statute of limitations in the case of a confessional like this does not make much sense.
On the other hand in this case (and maybe many/most cases) I have not much faith that those getting the bump ups are any cleaner than MJ.
bad hammy wrote:So you are fine with any and all marks made by PED users who used PEDs prior to their being banned? It is not the use of the PED itself that bothers you, it is the arbitrary date when some governing body said 'no more'?
Yes. If it's not against the rules then it's not cheating.
Everybody else at the time was perfectly within their rights to do the same. It may be unsavoury and we might not like it but it's not cheating.
If altitude tents are banned in the future does that make Paula a cheat
bad hammy wrote:So you are fine with any and all marks made by PED users who used PEDs prior to their being banned? It is not the use of the PED itself that bothers you, it is the arbitrary date when some governing body said 'no more'?
Yes. If it's not against the rules then it's not cheating.
Everybody else at the time was perfectly within their rights to do the same. It may be unsavoury and we might not like it but it's not cheating.
So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!
bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!
No, because that would force people to take potentially harmful drugs in order to compete on an equal footing. I'm not saying I agree with people taking anything to improve their performances but if at the, time whatever it is, is not illegal I don't see how we can complain.
As i previously stated I have no interest at all in the Barry Bonds case but if it's true that any drugs he may have taken during the period he claimed his record what rule is he supposed to have broken?
Flumpy wrote:As i previously stated I have no interest at all in the Barry Bonds case but if it's true that any drugs he may have taken during the period he claimed his record what rule is he supposed to have broken?
I feel likewise about Barry Who? ... don't you mean "Bobby"? (as I once asked my son).
The only "sanction" Bonds will incur will be sitting in the old-folks home ump-teen years for now and still excluded from the Hall of Fame. That, and the loss of fists-full of dollars that accrue, post-retirement, to heroes of major sports in America.
bijanc wrote:What sprinters and relay teams stand to gain Oly bronzes, silvers and gold if the IOC strip her (and US relay women) of all her medals?
Does it move Ottey up in the career count?
BCB
merlene wouldn;t gain another medal in the realy as JAM came 2nd and USA 3rd in 2000 but she does get an individual bronze in 100m
she is already the most bemedellad woman in OG track and field history with 8 medals beating shirly strickland and irina szewinska with 7, this takes her to 9.
bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!
I gotta be honest, part of me is leaning in this direction. The part of me who believes 90% of the best athletes are using sumthin, what other conclusion can i come to? This same part of me see's a huge wave of PED'S and a small army of well intentioned souls fighting it with cheap umbrellas.
This shit they're taking works, it works big time. You think you can stop it? Have any drug wars been won? Remember when our sport wasnt Pro? That became a farce. Do we have a new farce?
This is so depressing. Maybe the way to win is to surrender? As Doc Phil would say, " What your doin now, how's that workin for ya?"
bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!
I gotta be honest, part of me is leaning in this direction. The part of me who believes 90% of the best athletes are using sumthin, what other conclusion can i come to? This same part of me see's a huge wave of PED'S and a small army of well intentioned souls fighting it with cheap umbrellas.
This shit they're taking works, it works big time. You think you can stop it? Have any drug wars been won? Remember when our sport wasnt Pro? That became a farce. Do we have a new farce?
This is so depressing. Maybe the way to win is to surrender? As Doc Phil would say, " What your doin now, how's that workin for ya?"
That's exactly what happened with "Prohibition". The government threw in the towel. Look at Nevada, the first state to legalize prostitution and gambling. If gambling was so bad, why are so many other states following their example? Maybe it's only a matter of time before the other states legalize prostitution too.
bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!
I gotta be honest, part of me is leaning in this direction. The part of me who believes 90% of the best athletes are using sumthin, what other conclusion can i come to? This same part of me see's a huge wave of PED'S and a small army of well intentioned souls fighting it with cheap umbrellas.
This shit they're taking works, it works big time. You think you can stop it? Have any drug wars been won? Remember when our sport wasnt Pro? That became a farce. Do we have a new farce?
This is so depressing. Maybe the way to win is to surrender? As Doc Phil would say, " What your doin now, how's that workin for ya?"
This is the sad result when a slice of the sport's biggest fans come to believe that nothing matters quite so much as faster, higher, farther. To this end, "we" are apparently willing to offer up the good long-term health of (many?) athletes, while consigning other athletes - those who decline to offer up their bodies as sacrifices - to the status of no-hopers who can never hope to merit "our" admiration and attention.
SQUACKEE wrote:MJ- front page story and more in the sports section in todays Danbury News Times- Connecticut
In the wake of the initial announcement of the letter the SF Chron's (BALCO journalism investigation HQ) Friday edition had a blurb on the bottom of the front page and an article by the BALCO writers on the front page of the sports. Today's edition (post courtroom) had front page articles in both the main section and the sports section. This was my favorite of the bunch, from the front page today: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... NSL9R1.DTL
Gwen Knapp of the SF Chron wrote:Jones has been lying about her drug use for ages, and everyone with a functioning brain stem knew it.
I feel for my friends who are involved in American track and field. Jones has dealt their sport a wickedly damaging blow. Ironically, no sport likely has been more upfront about cleansing itself of drug cheats.
donley2 wrote:One particularly pertinent quote: "I feel for my friends who are involved in American track and field. Jones has dealt their sport a wickedly damaging blow. Ironically, no sport likely has been more upfront about cleansing itself of drug cheats."
That's exactly how I feel about our situation right now.
of course all her medals ahould be taken away but we can't have a state of affairs where they are then awarded to other known cheats as happened when kelli white was DQ. i don;t know how it can be done but if you are convicted of a drug offence then there should be some rule where all your previous achievements are wiped
