Marion to plead guilty to doping!


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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:39 pm

If I broke the rules, I apologize, that's not my intention. But I have to ask, since I didn't name anyone or even implicate anyone, what was my offense? I thought that by using the words "most" and "percentage", I kept myself within the rules.
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Postby bhall » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:43 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:If I broke the rules, I apologize, that's not my intention. But I have to ask, since I didn't name anyone or even implicate anyone, what was my offense? I thought that by using the words "most" and "percentage", I kept myself within the rules.


Your statement basically implicated anyone capable of reaching a certain level of performance.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:02 pm

bhall wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:If I broke the rules, I apologize, that's not my intention. But I have to ask, since I didn't name anyone or even implicate anyone, what was my offense? I thought that by using the words "most" and "percentage", I kept myself within the rules.


Your statement basically implicated anyone capable of reaching a certain level of performance.

Not anyone capable, but "some of the ones capable" is the message I was trying to convey. I thought I had chosen my words carefully, but evidently not. Nevertheless, you're the boss and I'll try to be more vague from now on.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:09 pm

So it seems as though Marion may just be a pawn in the G-men's effort to get Barry Bonds based on what ESPN is reporting. They don't care about Olympic medals and World Championships. It's the home run record that must be protected.
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Postby Littlemac » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:10 pm

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Postby twittering debutante » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:12 pm

tafnut wrote:As a long-time Marion-defender (I, did, however give up on her after the EPO thing), I am extremely disappointed in this turn of events. I was TOTALLY fooled by her book, wherein she categorically

IN BOLD RED PRINT (oh, the ignominy :? )

denied PED-using. Even if she says she didn't know it was 'The Clear', the fact that Graham said 'don't tell anyone' should have been the deal-breaker.

I would like to apologize to EVERYONE on this board for my staunch support of her. There's no fool like an old fool, and I'm feeling very old now. :oops:


cool, thanks
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Postby tafnut » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:30 pm

twittering debutante wrote:cool, thanks

TwitDeb, long time no see, where ya been, bro?
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Postby EPelle » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:38 pm

(full moon). 8)
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Postby Walt Murphy » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:12 pm

NBC opened its 6:30 and 7:00 news shows with Marion's press conference and both had reports originating from the Armory in NY City featuring Derrick Adkins, who is charge of the T&F program there.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:16 pm

jazz cyclist wrote:So it seems as though Marion may just be a pawn in the G-men's effort to get Barry Bonds based on what ESPN is reporting. They don't care about Olympic medals and World Championships. It's the home run record that must be protected.

The book Game of Shadows makes it plain that the whole focus of the feds has been Barry Bonds and everyone else (including Conte) have just been peripheral collateral damage.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:18 pm

tafnut wrote:
twittering debutante wrote:cool, thanks

TwitDeb, long time no see, where ya been, bro?


TD, i missed you! People have been requesting your masterpiece Marrying Jonz sp? Please come back and post like a..... :D
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Postby Half Miler » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:31 pm

Just watched Marion's apology.

I teared up.

Despite what many/most of you have said, I do think it takes courage to apologize like that. She could have gone away quietly, which would have been easier.

Don't you guys realize how often people lie?

Take a guess and then multiply that by 10.

Like many in (and out of) the sport, Marion lied, and lied again. Of course it's wrong. Of course it tarnishes her achievements. But I'm in agreement with the poster who made the comparison to "having killed someone". There are many more liars out there who will never admit to or apologize for what they've done. At least she's done that.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:51 pm

I was just thinking that there are probably other athletes that have admitted taking the same stuff that Jones took and other PED's, but will never be found out because they were truthful with the G-men when they were questioned about it. The only reason we suspect Jason Giambi and Barry Bonds is because someone leaked grand jury testimony. I believe that leaker now sits in a federal prison. The difference between Giambi and Bonds is that Giambi leveled with the G-men. Since Jones' testimony was sealed, this thread wouldn't exist if she had only told the truth.

The truth shall set you free.

What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:56 pm

We seem to see it again and again - oftentimes it ain't the crime, it's the coverup . . .
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Postby sl » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:59 pm

Did I miss it or was there no apology in her video statement to clean competitors she beat while cheating? I think Marion Jones had the kind of talent where she could have been a champion with talent and hard work alone. What a waste. Sad for her, sad for the sport.

Half Miler wrote:Just watched Marion's apology.

I teared up.

Despite what many/most of you have said, I do think it takes courage to apologize like that. She could have gone away quietly, which would have been easier.

Don't you guys realize how often people lie?...
... There are many more liars out there who will never admit to or apologize for what they've done. At least she's done that.
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Postby Half Miler » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:04 pm

sl wrote:Did I miss it or was there no apology in her video statement to clean competitors she beat while cheating?


Good point. I would have liked to have seen that as well. There may be more apologies to come.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:24 pm

I understand the people who are angry and the people who are sad. Whats the best road to take on this. If you believe she is truely sorry than its a no brainer and if you dont its a no brainer.

What do i think. I think she's sorry she got caught. For you on the other side a question. If she had never been caught do you think she would be happy to get away with it with no guilt at all? I do.

Theres also the question of the $25,000.00 check .
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:27 pm

Kelli White gave the most candid and contrite interview of any doper I've ever seen. I believe that her confession is what actually did her in since, the IAAF didn't actually have the goods to ban her without the confession. She never pretended that she didn't know what she was taking and you actually got the sense that her conscious was tormenting her the whole time she was doping, which probably explains why she didn't dope for very long. With Jones, I get the impression that she only admitted to what was expedient for her legal predicament. I get no sense that she struggled with the decision to dope while she was actually doping.
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Postby mojo » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:34 pm

I just can not muster up any sympathy for her-and I have actually been trying all day to see how that would be possible.
We all know the harm she has caused to the sport, to the fans and to all the women she beat her were clean. We all know that not once did she have a prick of guilt-at least not enough to make her stop from suing people, writing a book and cashing in on the all American good girl image.
I am glad she said that her behaviour should be a lesson to young kids but really will they hear it?

I have had three emails from young teens I coach. They said they aren't surprised and think she just fessed up to save her own bacon. They also seem to believe that you can't make it to the very top in some events unless you take drugs (and we do all we can to disuade them of that)and yet they still idolize mnay athletes. I guess they are hoping their idols aren't cheating. Fine to say us coaches and parents should be role models but the power of stardom and glory is very enticing. (and not just to kids).

So in the end I just can't tear up over Marion and her contrite press conference. It is way too late in the game.

Bye Marion- please just stay away from the sport.
Last edited by mojo on Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Half Miler » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:37 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I get no sense that she struggled with the decision to dope while she was actually doping.


See, I do.

I think most of us cheat, lie, break the law and that we all struggle with it. There are times when I know I'm about to make a questionable moral decision, but I rationalize and then do it anyway. "Look, everyone else is doing it!" is a common rationalization. No, it doesn't make it right, but it does make it easier. And I think that's probably what happened with Marion (in addition to other reasons we'll never know).

Also, I don't think her tears were faked. Which means I believe that she honestly feels like shit for deceiving people.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:53 pm

Half Miler wrote:Also, I don't think her tears were faked. Which means I believe that she honestly feels like shit for deceiving people.

That I do not believe. In my opinion she feels like shit for being caught . . .
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Postby cacique » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:56 pm

i watched her live statement on tv. i didn't realize how sad and angry i was from this whole thing. of course she was one of my heroes, but soon enough i was disenchanted by what she was doing, the company she was keeping, etc. every time she went on tv to deny the allegations, i suspected she was lying.

i'm so pissed right now because i did admire her. now i absolutely hate her. i feel that there's still quite a lot she hasn't told us. i doubt she was only doping from 1999 to 2001. that's the episode she's been caught, but who knows what else she has not been caught with yet?
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Postby mojo » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:57 pm

bad hammy wrote:
Half Miler wrote:Also, I don't think her tears were faked. Which means I believe that she honestly feels like shit for deceiving people.

That I do not believe. She feels like shit for being caught . . .


Yep.

Oh I am sure she feels some shame and regret but until the her back was against the wall I think she slept just fine at night. (and we don't know for sure of course but anyone with a tinge of guilt all those years would not have been as vociferous as she has been).
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Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:03 pm

cacique wrote:
i'm so pissed right now because i did admire her.


Look Marion.Imagine this by a million. The next Marion take note. DO you what this? DO YOU!
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Re: Knew it

Postby DaveW » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:07 pm

WalkandJog wrote:It was so interesting a few years ago when it was such a hot debate about whether Marion was clean. Everyone deep down knew she was dirty. It was probably more interesting to see the excuses that Marion's supporters came up with to say she was clean. Everyone hates someone who says "I told you so," but in this case it was so obvious that it was painful to see how blindly faithful Marion's supporters were. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, but runs faster than a cheetah, sumthin ain't right.

[Admin Edited] :twisted:


Marion Jones would say anything for a dollar. The dollar has influence on many aspects of the sport. If Marion Jones would say anything, who else might?
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Postby Mennisco » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:16 pm

Haven't read the thread, at 8 pages I don't have time. But a cursory glance of her confessional letter makes me wonder when she will start telling the WHOLE truth. Unless I missed something, she claims the doping began in '99. I do not believe that part. It began in '97, when she surged to 10.76 and 21.76 clockings. She never ran faster at sea level in the 200. She improved by 0.06 at sea level in the 100. Am I to believe that she came back and reached what amounted to her career peak [damn close enough to it] in 1997, and only started doping 2 years later? I don't believe it, and anyone who does is living in la-la land.

It is of course possible she was doped without knowing it in '97.

I sure hope nobody out there wants to emulate her without getting caught. I also hope that a comet will swing by the earth tomorrow and crop dust the environment with a beneficent compound that ups the average IQ by at least 20 points, and also instills rock solid honesty in every human being. Then the former might come to pass. :P
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Postby Littlemac » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:08 pm

Half Miler wrote:Just watched Marion's apology.

I teared up.

Despite what many/most of you have said, I do think it takes courage to apologize like that. She could have gone away quietly, which would have been easier.

Don't you guys realize how often people lie?

Take a guess and then multiply that by 10.

Like many in (and out of) the sport, Marion lied, and lied again. Of course it's wrong. Of course it tarnishes her achievements. But I'm in agreement with the poster who made the comparison to "having killed someone". There are many more liars out there who will never admit to or apologize for what they've done. At least she's done that.


I think you are being very naive.
Do you really think that Marion can just go away quietly?
She is the face of track and field and the press is looking for her to say something! How would it look if she made no comment at all?
Her lawyers, her family, her agent, her manager, her husband, her friends, her dog....everyone is telling her to go out there and apologize. That's what you do when you're a public figure - whether you're Paris Hilton or Sen Larry Craig or Michael Vick. YOU HAVE TO APOLOGIZE. It is a given. It's spin, it's PR at work, it's damage control. The American public is very forgiving....appeal to them.
Obviously one down, but many more to go.

The truth is that Marion is only sorry now because she's been caught. (why hasn't she apologized before?)
No, she didn't commit murder, but she cheated and tainted an entire sport. And unlike basketball, football, baseball, etc, where there are many heroes, in T&F Marion Jones was THE only hero for young girls to look up to.
She's shafted them as well.
Yes other people lie and cheat, so that makes MJ less guilty or less culpable or somehow it's OK? Come on, are you for real with that arguement?
Her apology is perfunctory. It counts for absolutely nothing !
Take off those rose colored glasses and face the reality that your girl is a fake and has zero courage, integrity, and credibility.
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Postby mrbowie » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:44 pm

Littlemac wrote:
Half Miler wrote:Just watched Marion's apology.

I teared up.

Despite what many/most of you have said, I do think it takes courage to apologize like that. She could have gone away quietly, which would have been easier.

Don't you guys realize how often people lie?

Take a guess and then multiply that by 10.

Like many in (and out of) the sport, Marion lied, and lied again. Of course it's wrong. Of course it tarnishes her achievements. But I'm in agreement with the poster who made the comparison to "having killed someone". There are many more liars out there who will never admit to or apologize for what they've done. At least she's done that.


I think you are being very naive.
Do you really think that Marion can just go away quietly?
She is the face of track and field and the press is looking for her to say something! How would it look if she made no comment at all?
Her lawyers, her family, her agent, her manager, her husband, her friends, her dog....everyone is telling her to go out there and apologize. That's what you do when you're a public figure - whether you're Paris Hilton or Sen Larry Craig or Michael Vick. YOU HAVE TO APOLOGIZE. It is a given. It's spin, it's PR at work, it's damage control. The American public is very forgiving....appeal to them.
Obviously one down, but many more to go.

The truth is that Marion is only sorry now because she's been caught. (why hasn't she apologized before?)
No, she didn't commit murder, but she cheated and tainted an entire sport. And unlike basketball, football, baseball, etc, where there are many heroes, in T&F Marion Jones was THE only hero for young girls to look up to.
She's shafted them as well.
Yes other people lie and cheat, so that makes MJ less guilty or less culpable or somehow it's OK? Come on, are you for real with that arguement?
Her apology is perfunctory. It counts for absolutely nothing !
Take off those rose colored glasses and face the reality that your girl is a fake and has zero courage, integrity, and credibility.


Perfecto.
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Postby mrbowie » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:46 pm

The joke of Marion Jones is if there was ever one person that did not need to cheat it was Marion Jones.

Has there ever been a more gifted track and field prodigy than her in the United States?

I never saw the person if one existed.

She hung around with a bad crowd from the beginning.

Sleep with dog, wind up with fleas.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:47 pm

Conte says MJ the victim of a corrupt system: http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNe ... 5920071006
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Postby mrbowie » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:55 pm

Justin Clouder wrote:Not to defend Jones for a microsecond, however the "burn the witch" tone of much of this thread is very unpleasant. She didn't kill anyone.

Nor can this be chalked up as a victory in anti-doping since she has only been outed via an irrelevant (to track) financial fraud, not any efforts by anti-doping authorities.

There are no winners here, there is no good news, only bad news and losers. IMHO.

Justin


Totally disagree.

This is a victory for the good guys, no matter how it came to its sad conclusion.

Young people will now know what happens to somebody that cheats and lies. This is very positive.

Did it matter that Al Capone was sent to prison for tax evasion? The sob was sent to prison because he was a bad guy. Very instructive.

I feel very sad for all of those runners that ran second to Marion Jones. They were the ones that got cheated.
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Postby JRM » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:18 pm

Mennisco wrote:...It began in '97, when she surged to 10.76 and 21.76 clockings. She never ran faster at sea level in the 200. She improved by 0.06 at sea level in the 100. Am I to believe that she came back and reached what amounted to her career peak [damn close enough to it] in 1997, and only started doping 2 years later? I don't believe it, and anyone who does is living in la-la land.

It is of course possible she was doped without knowing it in '97.


When you blow the cover of a drug addict and start trying to piece things together, they will always fall short of telling you the whole story, while avowing to the death the veracity of their confession. They always keep something up their sleeve.

Be it PEDs or some other hard illicit substance, the motivation is the same. They're doing something they don't want you to find out about, and they want you to leave them alone so they can keep doing it. So, they'll cover it up to the bitter end, even as their world is unraveling around them.
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Postby ozvault » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:49 pm

What I liked about her press conference was her announcement that she is now retiring from Track and Field!
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Postby cacique » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:57 pm

there'll be quite some re-arranging in the medals stand, not just in sydney 2000, a quick look at the tables show that she medaled in the 1997 world champs, all the way to the world cup in 2002...
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Postby JRM » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:23 pm

cacique wrote:there'll be quite some re-arranging in the medals stand, not just in sydney 2000, a quick look at the tables show that she medaled in the 1997 world champs, all the way to the world cup in 2002...


Her admission of guilt only goes back to 1999, so unless I'm missing something, her performances in '97 and '98 can't be stricken.
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:46 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Kelli White gave the most candid and contrite interview of any doper I've ever seen. I believe that her confession is what actually did her in since, the IAAF didn't actually have the goods to ban her without the confession. She never pretended that she didn't know what she was taking and you actually got the sense that her conscious was tormenting her the whole time she was doping, which probably explains why she didn't dope for very long. With Jones, I get the impression that she only admitted to what was expedient for her legal predicament. I get no sense that she struggled with the decision to dope while she was actually doping.


I seem to recall David Miller doing the confession. I think he said that he actually left the syringes out (and there as investigation into the team in the several days/raiding houses). He said he just did not like the feeling of having won the Worlds (ITT) by cheating. He has done OK since but not great.
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Postby Friar » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:59 pm

This was from one of her defenders.http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/sports/othersports/06rhoden.html?ref=sports
If Jones is serious about redemption, her first order of business should be returning the pieces of gold without being asked. This is harsh, I know, but she should remember that the pursuit of gold tempted her to run a race that she couldn’t win.

I have the feeling Marion is going to have trouble turning in the Gold. Maybe a nebulous statement like 'I've been assured they are in a safe place but I'm not aware of their location', will suffice.
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Postby tjallen » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:02 pm

She minimized the time period even more in her court plea. She says now she was on the clear ONLY from September 2000 to July 2001.

This will minimize the loss of other medals and money, which the IAAF was threatening to sue for.

tja
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Postby tjallen » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:04 pm

I've been wondering about this business of drops under the tongue. Yes, nitro for the heart, and a few other meds are given this way, but it is not common at all. Some medicines are dispensed in chewing gum, and coke users do gummers sometimes. But in general, absorption in the mouth is not a common way to give steroids, so far as I've ever heard.

On the other hand, we know the clear came in a syringe, or at least that's the form it was sent by VC to the authorities. I wonder if she was instead injecting under the tongue. I've heard heroin users inject there to hide the tracks (until those vessels collapse), then move on to places like between the toes. Hmmm. Most of the injected steroids I've ever heard of were injected into muscle mass, though, not directly into the bloodstream.

This whole "under the tongue" thing sounds weird, and I wonder if our docs might comment on it.

tja
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Postby Law dude » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:39 pm

JRM wrote:
cacique wrote:there'll be quite some re-arranging in the medals stand, not just in sydney 2000, a quick look at the tables show that she medaled in the 1997 world champs, all the way to the world cup in 2002...

Her admission of guilt only goes back to 1999, so unless I'm missing something, her performances in '97 and '98 can't be stricken.

Nor can her 1999 performances. The IAAF statute of limitations on admissions is 8 years.
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