No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling does


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No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling does

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:35 pm

Tour intends to turn away riders who don't sign charter

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/n ... id=2916737

Amid doping scandal, 2 German TV stations suspend Tour de France coverage

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/18/ ... s/tour.php

I can't imagine an American TV network ever taking a principled stance like this when it comes to TV coverage of football, baseball or basketball.
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:20 pm

Note that those taking the stand are public television stations. That's comparing apples & oranges. One can imagine PBS doing something similar here. But certainly not a commercial enterprise. Would a German one?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:33 pm

gh wrote:Note that those taking the stand are public television stations. That's comparing apples & oranges. One can imagine PBS doing something similar here. But certainly not a commercial enterprise. Would a German one?


Good point!
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:16 am

"We regard this matter very seriously and are considering terminating our partnership (with the T-Mobile team)", Jan Runau, communications director of Adidas, told the German daily Die Welt.

"The Adidas group has a very clear position against doping in sport."

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=186090
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Postby Atanvarno » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:32 am

gh wrote:One can imagine PBS doing something similar here. But certainly not a commercial enterprise. Would a German one?


No. SAT1, a commercial channel, took over the broadcasting today.
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Postby gh » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:41 am

EPelle wrote:
"We regard this matter very seriously and are considering terminating our partnership (with the T-Mobile team)", Jan Runau, communications director of Adidas, told the German daily Die Welt.

"The Adidas group has a very clear position against doping in sport."

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=186090


Now THAT will get the atheltes' attention.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:15 pm

gh wrote:
EPelle wrote:
"We regard this matter very seriously and are considering terminating our partnership (with the T-Mobile team)", Jan Runau, communications director of Adidas, told the German daily Die Welt.

"The Adidas group has a very clear position against doping in sport."

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=186090


Now THAT will get the atheltes' attention.


I would imagine that there would be a fair amount of animosity towards a cyclist that's responsible for his team losing a major sponsor, especially if the team eventually has to fold because of it.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:09 am

Add Audi to that list:

Luxury car maker Audi, a unit of Volkswagen, could also follow suit, the newspaper said.

"We are currently examining very seriously the idea of pulling out of our sponsoring activities," Suddeutsche quoted Adidas communications chief Jan Runau as saying.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=186222
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/m ... index.html
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Re: No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling d

Postby thunder » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Tour intends to turn away riders who don't sign charter

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/n ... id=2916737

Amid doping scandal, 2 German TV stations suspend Tour de France coverage

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/18/ ... s/tour.php

I can't imagine an American TV network ever taking a principled stance like this when it comes to TV coverage of football, baseball or basketball.


no sport consents to doping like cycling tho. Everyone turns a blind eye. As Ferrari, Armstrong's coach says, if it does not show up, it is not doping.

Unprecedented instances of riders being tipped off about random testing.

Cycling is about as bad as it gets in Olympic events, perhaps weightlifting is the only rival for the title.

American professional sports are a different case, but NFL might have a similar incidence, and baseball less. But 41 yo pitchers tend to defy belief.
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Re: No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling d

Postby tandfman » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:05 am

thunder wrote:no sport consents to doping like cycling tho. Everyone turns a blind eye. As Ferrari, Armstrong's coach says, if it does not show up, it is not doping.

Unprecedented instances of riders being tipped off about random testing.

What about the major professional sports that do no random, unannounced testing at all? To me that's consenting to doping.
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Re: No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling d

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:30 pm

thunder wrote:Unprecedented instances of riders being tipped off about random testing.

Cycling is about as bad as it gets in Olympic events, perhaps weightlifting is the only rival for the title.

Are you saying that UCI officials are tipping off riders about drug tests? Please provide the details. I stand by my original statement. There are many instances of cyclists being suspended for incidents that would go unpunished in the other sports including track and field. Baseball relies strictly on announced drug tests to catch cheats. Football relies only on random testing and missed tests. Track and field relies on random testing, missed tests and confessions, a la Kelli White. Cycling relies on random testing, missed tests, confessions, circumstantial evidence, police investigations, hotel raids, customs agents and hearsay to catch cheats. Name a sport that has suspended more athletes in the last year than cycling. USATF allowed Justin Gatlin to compete in the 2006 Outdoor championships though it knew he had recently flunked a drug test. Why doesn't the IAAF work with law enforcement officials to catch cheats the way the UCI does? Shouldn't USATF take it upon itself to find out the names of every athlete that's under FBI investigation?
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Re: No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling d

Postby MJR » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:23 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Shouldn't USATF take it upon itself to find out the names of every athlete that's under FBI investigation?


If they had the power, yes, but that lies in the hands of the USOC and USADA, until those powers are given away. Its better that way, as USATF cannot afford the lawsuits.
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Postby tandfman » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:27 pm

I'm not even sure the FBI would share that information with USADA and the USOC. I had the impression that they're pretty tight about info regarding people under investigation.

Edited to fix typo.
Last edited by tandfman on Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:01 pm

tandfman wrote:I'm not even sure the FBI would share that information with USADA and the USOC. I had the impression that they're pretty tight about info regarding people undere investigation.

You may have a point. An Operation Puerto may be legally unfeasible in the US. But I would still like to see T&F move beyond the point of relying on failed drug tests to catch cheats.
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Postby thunder » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:10 pm

The Quickstep mole said the big guys were tipped off about tests coming up.

In Spain, it was documented, that the doctors at testing labs, gave a heads up to certain riders resident in Spain. They were friendly with the USPS docs if I remember.

Problem with cycling, the national orgs effectively coordinate the testing. But this will inevitably lead to partisanship influencing their probity.

See for example, Operation Puerto. The Spanish gov't could do a great deal to clean up the domestic peloton, if the political will was there, but it is not. Expedience, pure and simple.
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Re: No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling d

Postby thunder » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:17 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
thunder wrote:Unprecedented instances of riders being tipped off about random testing.

Cycling is about as bad as it gets in Olympic events, perhaps weightlifting is the only rival for the title.

Are you saying that UCI officials are tipping off riders about drug tests? Please provide the details. I stand by my original statement. There are many instances of cyclists being suspended for incidents that would go unpunished in the other sports including track and field. Baseball relies strictly on announced drug tests to catch cheats. Football relies only on random testing and missed tests. Track and field relies on random testing, missed tests and confessions, a la Kelli White. Cycling relies on random testing, missed tests, confessions, circumstantial evidence, police investigations, hotel raids, customs agents and hearsay to catch cheats. Name a sport that has suspended more athletes in the last year than cycling. USATF allowed Justin Gatlin to compete in the 2006 Outdoor championships though it knew he had recently flunked a drug test. Why doesn't the IAAF work with law enforcement officials to catch cheats the way the UCI does? Shouldn't USATF take it upon itself to find out the names of every athlete that's under FBI investigation?


jazz you have it around the wrong way. The UCI has never done a thing about doping. They have done their utmost to turn a blind eye.

A large proportion of riders have been caught by police. The law authorities instigate the investigations, the UCI then complies to show they are a willing partner. But they are anything but, they are not proactive at all.

The change may be pushed, because of PR reasons, and there may be a change now, only because things got so bad.

Doping was consented in the Armstrong era, because money was coming into the sport, and everything was flush. Without Armstrong, they do not have the figurehead, nor the cash, nor the power to just suppress the facts and the reality.

Just because cycling has caught more riders, that is no evidence they are doing more, they might be doing less but have a greater proportion of positives, and now labs are leaking information, they can no longer cover it up.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:47 pm

thunder wrote:The Quickstep mole said the big guys were tipped off about tests coming up.

In Spain, it was documented, that the doctors at testing labs, gave a heads up to certain riders resident in Spain. They were friendly with the USPS docs if I remember.

Problem with cycling, the national orgs effectively coordinate the testing. But this will inevitably lead to partisanship influencing their probity.

See for example, Operation Puerto. The Spanish gov't could do a great deal to clean up the domestic peloton, if the political will was there, but it is not. Expedience, pure and simple.

I don't doubt that there are corrupt lab technicians. You have corrupt police officers, corrupt judges and corrupt people in all walks of life. But unless you can connect these tip-offs to the UCI itself, I don't see how you can blame the UCI for it unless they know that the lab is corrupt and fail to do something about it.
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Re: No sport pursues drug cheats as agressively as cycling d

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:05 pm

thunder wrote:jazz you have it around the wrong way. The UCI has never done a thing about doping. They have done their utmost to turn a blind eye.

A large proportion of riders have been caught by police. The law authorities instigate the investigations, the UCI then complies to show they are a willing partner. But they are anything but, they are not proactive at all.

The change may be pushed, because of PR reasons, and there may be a change now, only because things got so bad.

Doping was consented in the Armstrong era, because money was coming into the sport, and everything was flush. Without Armstrong, they do not have the figurehead, nor the cash, nor the power to just suppress the facts and the reality.

Just because cycling has caught more riders, that is no evidence they are doing more, they might be doing less but have a greater proportion of positives, and now labs are leaking information, they can no longer cover it up.

You make some good points. Maybe European law enforcement is helping the UCI do its job. But the UCI still must act on law enforcement's work. Why hasn't USATF and the IAAF acted on the FBI's BALCO work. You seem to know the sport of cycling well enough to know that there are dozens of cyclists who have been suspended by the UCI who've never flunked a drug test, never missed a drug test, never admitted to taking PED's and never been convicted in a courtroom for taking PED's. T&F has no mechanism for punishing people that fall in this category.
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Postby thunder » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:13 pm

I misrepresented, apologies, not the UCI tipping them off, national feds, and drug testing agencies.

The UCI had no will to do anything, and I am sure they covered up stuff on the top guys. They had all the blood work of the top riders also, they knew riders blood was doing crazy things. They only told Phonak to stop that. Were they the only ones doing that? Doubt it. Surely there were others who were protected.

Two of the Spanish wunderkinds have been protected post OP.

See: OP for the Balco, and USA Aths federation. Same. No difference. Spain do not want to do a thing. Which makes on wonder why, in the first place, did they raid Fuentes' doping clinic. The only riders who have been hurt in this are Ullrich, Jaksche, Basso. Two of Armstrong's greatest rivals, both post-Armstrong's retirement.

There would have been hell to pay, if Armstrong was still riding. But perhaps, it was only because he retired, that anything occurred in the first place. If Armstrong rode in 2006, and his two main threats were banned, I do not know if the sport could have dealt with the cognitive dissonance.

I wrote a post, then deleted it, because I think it contravened this board's guidelines. But one has to ask, when in the Marion Questions thread, folks are speculating that the top 20 times, are not natural.

It is only human to extrapolate that to all T&F events, besides the hurdles and the pole vault, hj, those events that place a premium on technique before pure power. Ofcourse, every event is highly technical, but the component in the function of performance differs.

So, I feel it probably skirted the guidelines of the board to speculate, or assert the top 20 times are unclean, and the only extrapolation is this is for both male/female in all events. But I think Jazz got edited in one thread, and I am probably inviting censure...
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