About James BECKFORD's longevity...


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

About James BECKFORD's longevity...

Postby 79. » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:34 pm

These good 8m17 at Rethymno ( beautiful place to visit ) from an
athlete who emerged in the World-class level 13 years ago are really
admirable.
He jumped a remarkable regular 8m37 on June in Warszaw.
79.
 
Posts: 1264
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: PARIS

Postby Half Miler » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:16 pm

Your post reminded me of Larry Myricks, one of my all-time faves.

Myricks ranked in the top 10 over a span of 18 years and jumped over 27 ft in 13 consecutive...
Half Miler
 
Posts: 2792
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: infinite loupe

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:01 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby gh » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:05 am

You're tarring Beckford with a pretty broad brush here. Beckford tested positive for a cold medication, lost the meet in question (and a cuople of weeks while it was ajudicated) and less than a month after the "positive" was back in the good graces of the IAAF and finished 4th in the WC.

You can't lump the jaywalkers in w/ the murderers, particularly when a one-day suspension as often as not is for an in inadvertent use of over-the-counter stuff that you and I wouldn't think twice about taking.
gh
 
Posts: 46322
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:36 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:Yes, if I remember correctly he tested positive for ephedrine...nothing more and nothing less. Cold medication my butt :roll: . Stimulantia-use is not deemed as serious as the use of anabolic/androgenic and of course it results in a less stiff penalty. However, the question was whether this cheater deserves our adoration. I don't think so, but if everyone was like me then the world would be a sad, sad, sad place so I respect your opinion.


how woud you regard an athlete who had a caffeine +ve 10y ago & got a ban, when wada have now removed caffeine from the prohibited list & now you can take as much caffeine as you like ?

or how about an asthmatic who tests +ve for salbutamol, but didn't submit their paperwork till later - asthma can develop anytime in life - if an athlete has a serious asthma atack for the 1st time in their lives in their 20's & requires life-saving salbutamol for the 1st time & gets randomly tested the next day before they've had a chance to submit the paperwork to iaaf stating that they are now on salbutamol & therefore gets a ban, are we to immediately withdraw all adoration ???
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Postby pela2 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:26 pm

Some other longevity long jumpers

Unbroken seasons in a row over 8 meters (in and out)
17
Larry Myricks 78-94
Ivan Pedroso 90-06
15
Jaime Jefferson 83-97
14
Carl Lewis 79-92
James Beckford 94-07
13
Nenad Stekic 74-86
12
Mike Powell 85-96
11
Igor Ter-Ovanesyan 59-69
Giovanni Evangelisti 82-92
Bogdan Tudor 90-00
Kareem Streete-Thompson 91-01
10
Laszlo Szalma 80-89


maybe I missed someone...
pela2
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: N 58°18.76' E 12°16.28'

Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:34 pm

pela2 wrote:14
Carl Lewis 79-92


i think you coud pretty much bet your house he couda done the same between '92 - '96 if he'd wanted to, for a total of 17y
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Postby pela2 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:38 pm

eldrick wrote:
pela2 wrote:14
Carl Lewis 79-92


i think you coud pretty much bet your house he couda done the same between '92 - '96 if he'd wanted to, for a total of 17y


Unbroken seasons
pela2
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: N 58°18.76' E 12°16.28'

Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:50 pm

i know, but it seemed he just gave up on it between those years when powell seemed to be dominant or perhaps he just wanted to concentrate his ole body one last time on the sprints
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more analysis

Postby Mats Nilsson » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:00 pm

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:05 pm

post more relevantly directed to your "adoration" comment
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Postby DentyCracker » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:53 pm

Mats, do you know the circumstances surrounding the positive test. Beckford admitted to using "Fatburn" a weight loss agent which contained ephedrine. The amounts in his test were consistent with those facts. Yes he was wrong to have used that agent but he has never struck me as being the brightest guy. To label him a cheater is to do him a disservice. Of course you will hold your opinion and I'll hold mine, just think a bit before making these comments
DentyCracker
 
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Jamaica

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:55 pm

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:06 pm

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby DentyCracker » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:18 pm

Intent a-h
geez
DentyCracker
 
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Jamaica

Postby Thor » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:08 am

Ah, what could be more charming than a self-righteous swede!?
Thor
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: About James BECKFORD's longevity...

Postby Powell » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:16 am

79. wrote:These good 8m17 at Rethymno ( beautiful place to visit ) from an
athlete who emerged in the World-class level 13 years ago are really
admirable.
He jumped a remarkable regular 8m37 on June in Warszaw.


We recently had another poster claiming Beckford has been a major disappointment in recent years: http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... s+beckford
Powell
 
Posts: 9063
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Vanuatu

Postby dakota » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:56 am

dakota
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:49 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:01 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:35 am

All right Mats, I'll put it to you simply and without smileys.

1. Ephedrin is pretty much just like caffeine. Stronger milligram for milligram, but nevertheless having quite similar pharmacology. Strychnin, btw, is the same class, only much stronger yet. If ephedrin is still on the banned list, it is a crying shame. Equating epedrine with cheating is absurd.

2. You must feel really proud about your high moral grounds. I guess you've never sinned. Instead of putting Thor up on the pedestal as you suggest, we should elevate you there. St. Mats sounds pretty good, don't you think?
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Postby Justin Clouder » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:56 am

It's really sad that a simple query about the longevity of an athlete has to be moved to the dope talk forum because of his dq from a single meet (no ban) over a decade ago.

Justin
Justin Clouder
 
Posts: 1200
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:14 am
Location: London, UK

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:21 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby Jon » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:42 am

Mats Nilsson wrote:Stop playing amateur biologist.
Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.
Jon
 
Posts: 9231
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby gh » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:56 am

Put more bluntly, since that seems to be the only language Mats understands: Pego is an MD. He's playing "amateur" nothing.
gh
 
Posts: 46322
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:08 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:09 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:16 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:21 am

Jon wrote:
Mats Nilsson wrote:Stop playing amateur biologist.
Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.


Let's see if my credentials are sufficient for Mats.

MD from Komensky University, Bratislava - 1962
Neurology residency - University of Arizona - 1970-73
Past president Wisconsin Neurological Society

Now Mats' arguments about ephedrine. As is obvious from the above dates, I spent some time in medicine when caffeine and ephedrine were pretty much the only available stimulants available.

1. Comparison with amphetamines is quite inappropriate. While they are both stimulants, ephedrine always belonged in the class of "central stimulants with caffeine and strychnine as I said earlier.
2. Certainly you can overdose on ephedrine just as you can overdose on any and every chemical substance. You could cause death by drinking too much of water and yet, nobody would consider banning water, would they?
3. A psychosis from a chronic use of ephedrine is a possibility and may have occurred. I have never personally seen it in 45 years in this racket. I have seen many cases of caffeine addiction, though. Of this class, the most dangerous is, of course, strychnine. Even that is (or used to be) quite popular among the mounteneers of Switzerland for its stimulant efficacy.
4. Nobody ever showed either caffeine or ephedrine to produce a PED effect. Obviously, if you are sleepy for whatever reason at the time of your competition, it will wake you up.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:26 am

Mats Nilsson wrote:
gh wrote:Put more bluntly, since that seems to be the only language Mats understands: Pego is an MD. He's playing "amateur" nothing.


I am sorry GH. MDs don't do research. I do. They use the facts that we give them. Anyhow, I will stop the cock-measuring contest right now. His response was naive indeed. He ought to know better than comparing ephedrine to caffeine. They are two different animals in the hands of an uneducated athlete.


Fine, what type of research do you do to make you qualified as an expert on stimulants? Mind you, I don't want an argument, but you called me an amateur, you said I don't know what I am talking about, so show us where your expertise comes from.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:37 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:43 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:58 am

The only thing I'll agree with in your post is that the MD by your name does not make you an expert in all things biological. I never claimed that distinction. I do, however, have a solid background in the function of the human nervous system.
Show me any credible evidence where ephedrine improved performance (not anecdotal, but solidly documented) and I'll shut up. There is plenty of evidence for steroids, for HGH and for hematocrit enhancers. I am not familiar with any for the stimulants.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:15 pm

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:40 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:
Pego wrote:The only thing I'll agree with in your post is that the MD by your name does not make you an expert in all things biological. I never claimed that distinction. I do, however, have a solid background in the function of the human nervous system.
Show me any credible evidence where ephedrine improved performance (not anecdotal, but solidly documented) and I'll shut up. There is plenty of evidence for steroids, for HGH and for hematocrit enhancers. I am not familiar with any for the stimulants.


Ok, I will state it again: Look up the reference that I gave in the original post [it is underlined]. Go to pubmed and do a litsearch (authors name + ephedrine) and you will find this pub. Once you have this pub then you use the reference list in the paper as a guide. Anyhow, if the abstracts exist on pubmed (which they do in this case) then they are credible sources and published in peer-reviewed journals. I am not going to do this leg-work for you Pego. Sorry for being rude and defensive. There was no need for that.


Agreed. Let's start from the beginning in a civilized fashion. For now, we'll just use the abstract of the referenced article that you pasted. I am putting key words in bold fonts.

<With their stimulant properties and sympathomimetic actions, ephedra alkaloids have been perceived as products that can potentially be used to enhance athletic performance and lending unfair advantages to athletes, even if used in supplement forms.>

Does "perceived" and "potentially" sound as solidly documented? To me it sounds as unsupported suppositions.

<Many athletes use food supplements containing ephedra alkaloids because of perceived benefits of increased energy, decreased time to exhaustion and potential thermogenic properties with increased metabolism, increased fat loss, and improved muscle strength.>

Again "perceived". Could it be what is called a "placebo effect"?

<In particular, a series of studies evaluated the effects of ephedrine in combination with caffeine showing an increased time to exhaustion and decreased rating of perceived exhaustion on cycle ergometry compared with either drug alone or placebo.>

As a researcher, you know how difficult it is to document effects of more than one drug administered together. There are simply too many variables. Once again, the word "perceived" is used.

Overall, this abstract offers little hope that the body of the article is worth chasing.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Postby stallion » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:05 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote: I don't think so, but if everyone was like me then the world would be a sad, sad, sad place so I respect your opinion.


Your candid self-appraisal is admirable.
stallion
 
Posts: 744
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth

Postby Mats Nilsson » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:48 pm

Agreed that this is a difficult case requiring more in depth analysis. The topic of "cheating" per se is quite more complex than just consumption of banned vs. legal substances. Best of luck to all of you!
Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mats Nilsson
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am

Postby stallion » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:12 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:
BTW, do you know what ratings of perceived exertion is? As an MD I bet you don't (they are generally not interested in exercise). Anyhow, the Borg's scale is subjective and everyone int he field knows this. I am sure they had more compelling evidence although the Borg scale is a good indicator of blood lactate concentrations, VO2 etc. Particularly when you are dealing with compliant research subjects.


This is very elementary stuff, Mats, so I think you underestimate Pego, but more to the point, the perceived level of exertion is often influenced by stimulants but this in itself is not tantamount to the assertion of an ergogenic effect(physical).
stallion
 
Posts: 744
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:28 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:Did you look up the references Pego? Nope I assume you did not.


No, I did not and I told you in my post before this one why not. If the abstract uses terms such as "perceived" and "potentially", I cannot imagine how the sources could be any more persuasive.

Mats Nilsson wrote:BTW, do you know what ratings of perceived exertion is? As an MD I bet you don't (they are generally not interested in exercise).


I told you where my expertise is and it is not in exercise physiology. Your constant attacks on physicians in general are, however, getting tired. Sport medicine physicians, respiratory specialists, even some orthopedists and physiatrists are very interested in exercise.

This is my last post in this exchange regardless of what you might add. So far your argument has been just ad hominem attacks on myself and my guild.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest