About James BECKFORD's longevity...

[79.]

These good 8m17 at Rethymno ( beautiful place to visit ) from an
athlete who emerged in the World-class level 13 years ago are really
admirable.
He jumped a remarkable regular 8m37 on June in Warszaw.

[Half Miler]

Your post reminded me of Larry Myricks, one of my all-time faves.

Myricks ranked in the top 10 over a span of 18 years and jumped over 27 ft in 13 consecutive...

[Mats Nilsson]

Has everyone forgotten that Beckford tested positive a couple of years ago? Short memories in some parts of the world eh? Why not pick a hero that is clean?

[gh]

You're tarring Beckford with a pretty broad brush here. Beckford tested positive for a cold medication, lost the meet in question (and a cuople of weeks while it was ajudicated) and less than a month after the "positive" was back in the good graces of the IAAF and finished 4th in the WC.

You can't lump the jaywalkers in w/ the murderers, particularly when a one-day suspension as often as not is for an in inadvertent use of over-the-counter stuff that you and I wouldn't think twice about taking.

[Mats Nilsson]

You're tarring Beckford with a pretty broad brush here. Beckford tested positive for a cold medication, lost the meet in question (and a cuople of weeks while it was ajudicated) and less than a month after the "positive" was back in the good graces of the IAAF and finished 4th in the WC.

You can't lump the jaywalkers in w/ the murderers, particularly when a one-day suspension as often as not is for an in inadvertent use of over-the-counter stuff that you and I wouldn't think twice about taking.

Yes, if I remember correctly he tested positive for ephedrine...nothing more and nothing less. Cold medication my butt . Stimulantia-use is not deemed as serious as the use of anabolic/androgenic and of course it results in a less stiff penalty. However, the question was whether this cheater deserves our adoration. I don't think so, but if everyone was like me then the world would be a sad, sad, sad place so I respect your opinion.

[eldrick]

Yes, if I remember correctly he tested positive for ephedrine...nothing more and nothing less. Cold medication my butt . Stimulantia-use is not deemed as serious as the use of anabolic/androgenic and of course it results in a less stiff penalty. However, the question was whether this cheater deserves our adoration. I don't think so, but if everyone was like me then the world would be a sad, sad, sad place so I respect your opinion.

how woud you regard an athlete who had a caffeine +ve 10y ago & got a ban, when wada have now removed caffeine from the prohibited list & now you can take as much caffeine as you like ?

or how about an asthmatic who tests +ve for salbutamol, but didn't submit their paperwork till later - asthma can develop anytime in life - if an athlete has a serious asthma atack for the 1st time in their lives in their 20's & requires life-saving salbutamol for the 1st time & gets randomly tested the next day before they've had a chance to submit the paperwork to iaaf stating that they are now on salbutamol & therefore gets a ban, are we to immediately withdraw all adoration ???

[pela2]

Some other longevity long jumpers

Unbroken seasons in a row over 8 meters (in and out)
17
Larry Myricks 78-94
Ivan Pedroso 90-06
15
Jaime Jefferson 83-97
14
Carl Lewis 79-92
James Beckford 94-07
13
Nenad Stekic 74-86
12
Mike Powell 85-96
11
Igor Ter-Ovanesyan 59-69
Giovanni Evangelisti 82-92
Bogdan Tudor 90-00
Kareem Streete-Thompson 91-01
10
Laszlo Szalma 80-89


maybe I missed someone...

[eldrick]

14
Carl Lewis 79-92

i think you coud pretty much bet your house he couda done the same between '92 - '96 if he'd wanted to, for a total of 17y

[pela2]

14
Carl Lewis 79-92

i think you coud pretty much bet your house he couda done the same between '92 - '96 if he'd wanted to, for a total of 17y

Unbroken seasons

[eldrick]

i know, but it seemed he just gave up on it between those years when powell seemed to be dominant or perhaps he just wanted to concentrate his ole body one last time on the sprints

[Mats Nilsson]

Yes, if I remember correctly he tested positive for ephedrine...nothing more and nothing less. Cold medication my butt . Stimulantia-use is not deemed as serious as the use of anabolic/androgenic and of course it results in a less stiff penalty. However, the question was whether this cheater deserves our adoration. I don't think so, but if everyone was like me then the world would be a sad, sad, sad place so I respect your opinion.

how woud you regard an athlete who had a caffeine +ve 10y ago & got a ban, when wada have now removed caffeine from the prohibited list & now you can take as much caffeine as you like ?

or how about an asthmatic who tests +ve for salbutamol, but didn't submit their paperwork till later - asthma can develop anytime in life - if an athlete has a serious asthma atack for the 1st time in their lives in their 20's & requires life-saving salbutamol for the 1st time & gets randomly tested the next day before they've had a chance to submit the paperwork to iaaf stating that they are now on salbutamol & therefore gets a ban, are we to immediately withdraw all adoration ???

What does this have to do with ephedrine?

[eldrick]

post more relevantly directed to your "adoration" comment

[DentyCracker]

Mats, do you know the circumstances surrounding the positive test. Beckford admitted to using "Fatburn" a weight loss agent which contained ephedrine. The amounts in his test were consistent with those facts. Yes he was wrong to have used that agent but he has never struck me as being the brightest guy. To label him a cheater is to do him a disservice. Of course you will hold your opinion and I'll hold mine, just think a bit before making these comments

[Mats Nilsson]

post more relevantly directed to your "adoration" comment

Well, when we have decided to "un-ban" ephedrine then ok fine let's all adore him . I am pretty sure that ephedrine is still on the banned list alhough nothing can stop him or anyone else from taking it during training (except a lurking heart-attack that is).

I was under the impression that we have always been able to drink coffee in moderate amounts as well as taking prescription allergy medications without testing positive or become subjected to WADA sanctions. Most likely it takes enourmous amounts of caffeine to make us test positive anyway (no, we are not talking about 3 cups of starbucks black here). I am not familiar with the asthma/allergy medication you mention, but I would presume that there were/are pretty effective alternatives out there 10-20 years ago/nowadays.

The bottomline is that you always have a choice. Unless you are from the deepest darkest rain forests of the Amazon, we are all literate and can decipher the banned drug list (although it never was my favourite bedtime read) as well as read the labels on common cough meds. There are no excuses.

[Mats Nilsson]

Mats, do you know the circumstances surrounding the positive test. Beckford admitted to using "Fatburn" a weight loss agent which contained ephedrine. The amounts in his test were consistent with those facts. Yes he was wrong to have used that agent but he has never struck me as being the brightest guy. To label him a cheater is to do him a disservice. Of course you will hold your opinion and I'll hold mine, just think a bit before making these comments

So being dumb is an excuse for cheating? Allow me to smirk just a tad. "Hey, teacher, please don't punish me for copying my friend's test. I am just dumb". Whatever rocks your boat. Fat burner or no fat burner, ephedrine has a HALF-LIFE OF 3-6 HOURS. More than likely he popped the energizers 1 hour before his first competition jump. Why would anyone take a fat-burner 1 hour before a comp? Heck, I don't care. Just don't be so darn impressed with people that are elevating their performance through artificial means.

Or perhaps we just have different opinions what constitutes cheating?

[DentyCracker]

Intent a-h
geez

[Thor]

Ah, what could be more charming than a self-righteous swede!?

[Powell]

These good 8m17 at Rethymno ( beautiful place to visit ) from an
athlete who emerged in the World-class level 13 years ago are really
admirable.
He jumped a remarkable regular 8m37 on June in Warszaw.

We recently had another poster claiming Beckford has been a major disappointment in recent years: http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... s+beckford

[dakota]

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/athlete=9832/BioPopUp.html

[Mats Nilsson]

Ah, what could be more charming than a self-righteous swede!?

Darn right man. The only one Scandinavians look up to is Thor himself didn't you know? We all have little ceramic statues of you in our bedrooms and we are convinced that the strive for perfection is a must. If a person does not fit the standards or don't conform to the rules of the "perfect" Swedish society then we will chop their heads off (immigrants), put them in the dungeons (handicapped people), or feed them to the vultures in media (mostly athletes of color or capitalist politicians). Heil Almighty Thor! Please show us the light and remember to punish us if we are too self-righteous for the good of the "4th Reich" .

Anyhow, I would think that I could allow myself pointing fingers since I have always been clean as a whistle. The rules are what they are and we should be able to express our disgust with the ones that are/were breaking them without having people like you busting our chops. My main reasons for this are purely egotistical: The bottom-line is that these cheaters are stealing food of the clean athletes' tables [itty bitty bread crumbs in my case ] and ultimately get the limelight. I presume that this has never been any of your concern Thor... Am I wrong? Let me ask you this: Is this because you never competed at an elite level or because you have skeletons in the closet so it would be hypocritical of you to even have an opinion in this particular matter? Actually don't bother to answer. I think I know.

Thus, if you would allow me Almighty Thor; can I please bask myself in my warm and cuddly self-righteousness a little while longer? Can I daddy? Please?

[Mats Nilsson]

Intent a-h
geez

So his intent was to cut fat 1-3 hours before a competition? God I love these little smileys. I can be really sarcastic without even writing a single word.

[Pego]

All right Mats, I'll put it to you simply and without smileys.

1. Ephedrin is pretty much just like caffeine. Stronger milligram for milligram, but nevertheless having quite similar pharmacology. Strychnin, btw, is the same class, only much stronger yet. If ephedrin is still on the banned list, it is a crying shame. Equating epedrine with cheating is absurd.

2. You must feel really proud about your high moral grounds. I guess you've never sinned. Instead of putting Thor up on the pedestal as you suggest, we should elevate you there. St. Mats sounds pretty good, don't you think?

[Justin Clouder]

It's really sad that a simple query about the longevity of an athlete has to be moved to the dope talk forum because of his dq from a single meet (no ban) over a decade ago.

Justin

[Mats Nilsson]

All right Mats, I'll put it to you simply and without smileys.

1. Ephedrin is pretty much just like caffeine. Stronger milligram for milligram, but nevertheless having quite similar pharmacology. Strychnin, btw, is the same class, only much stronger yet. If ephedrin is still on the banned list, it is a crying shame. Equating epedrine with cheating is absurd.

2. You must feel really proud about your high moral grounds. I guess you've never sinned. Instead of putting Thor up on the pedestal as you suggest, we should elevate you there. St. Mats sounds pretty good, don't you think?

Oh my you are making me flush dear Pego. St. Mats sounds good to me.

1). Stop playing amateur biologist. Ephedrine is closely related in structure (and thus function) to metaamphetamines. Similarites to caffeine...yes sure there are: They are both stimulants, but that is as far as I would go. Anyhow, there are many reasons why ephedrine is on the WADA list of banned drugs and caffeine is only on the so called "monitoring list". Here are a few reasons that come to my mind, which has recently been published in a summary form by Avois et al. in BJSM: "With their stimulant properties and sympathomimetic actions, ephedra alkaloids have been perceived as products that can potentially be used to enhance athletic performance and lending unfair advantages to athletes, even if used in supplement forms. Many athletes use food supplements containing ephedra alkaloids because of perceived benefits of increased energy, decreased time to exhaustion and potential thermogenic properties with increased metabolism, increased fat loss, and improved muscle strength. In particular, a series of studies evaluated the effects of ephedrine in combination with caffeine showing an increased time to exhaustion and decreased rating of perceived exhaustion on cycle ergometry compared with either drug alone or placebo. As for side effects: headache, dizziness, irritability, anxiety, tremor, and psychosis. Higher doses (overdose) can cause restlessness and anxiety, dizziness, insomnia, tremor, rapid pulse, sweating, respiratory difficulties, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The most dangerous symptoms of overdose are abnormally high blood pressure and rapid, irregular heartbeat. A dose of ephedrine only two or three times the therapeutic maximum can cause a significant increase in blood pressure. Finally, a number of instances of psychosis, clinically similar to amfetamine psychosis, have resulted from chronic high-dose misuse".

2) One commonly used definition of cheating is: "To violate rules deliberately, as in a game". Thus, Beckford is a cheater if he breaks the rules set forth by WADA/IAAF. Please stop your misplaced admiration of this dude. How can you separate a person from his or her previous actions? His "longevity" does not really matter if his career is tainted by being caught in a drug test. How can we trust that his longevity and undeniable success have been achieved the natural way? We can't and I for one will not lower myself to the simple- minded "peasent" fan level and tout this guy's acheivements. You should not either since you ought to know better.

[Jon]

Stop playing amateur biologist.

Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.

[gh]

Put more bluntly, since that seems to be the only language Mats understands: Pego is an MD. He's playing "amateur" nothing.

[Mats Nilsson]

Put more bluntly, since that seems to be the only language Mats understands: Pego is an MD. He's playing "amateur" nothing.

I am sorry GH. MDs don't do research. I do. They use the facts that we give them. Anyhow, I will stop the cock-measuring contest right now. His response was naive indeed. He ought to know better than comparing ephedrine to caffeine. They are two different animals in the hands of an uneducated athlete.

[Mats Nilsson]

Stop playing amateur biologist.

Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.

That is why I referenced buddy.... I will add in the quotation marks to make it even more APPARENT for you.

[Mats Nilsson]

Stop playing amateur biologist.

Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.

That is why I referenced buddy.... I will add in the quotation marks to make it even more APPARENT for you.

It is from a peer-reviewed journal: JBSM (as I stated in my original post). Don't remember the impact factor on top of my head, but I am pretty sure it is over the 1.9 of Playgirl magazine that graces your bedroom table. Unlike Pego I do research and I present my name on every post.

This topic about MDs vs. researchers can wait for another dau and another thread. However, memorization and application (MD) vs. innovation and building upon the existing body of knowledge is very different. I naturally preume that Pego is of the former like 99.99% of all MDs. It is no stretch of the imagination, but yes I am surprised that he was an MD indeed.

[Pego]

Stop playing amateur biologist.

Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.

Let's see if my credentials are sufficient for Mats.

MD from Komensky University, Bratislava - 1962
Neurology residency - University of Arizona - 1970-73
Past president Wisconsin Neurological Society

Now Mats' arguments about ephedrine. As is obvious from the above dates, I spent some time in medicine when caffeine and ephedrine were pretty much the only available stimulants available.

1. Comparison with amphetamines is quite inappropriate. While they are both stimulants, ephedrine always belonged in the class of "central stimulants with caffeine and strychnine as I said earlier.
2. Certainly you can overdose on ephedrine just as you can overdose on any and every chemical substance. You could cause death by drinking too much of water and yet, nobody would consider banning water, would they?
3. A psychosis from a chronic use of ephedrine is a possibility and may have occurred. I have never personally seen it in 45 years in this racket. I have seen many cases of caffeine addiction, though. Of this class, the most dangerous is, of course, strychnine. Even that is (or used to be) quite popular among the mounteneers of Switzerland for its stimulant efficacy.
4. Nobody ever showed either caffeine or ephedrine to produce a PED effect. Obviously, if you are sleepy for whatever reason at the time of your competition, it will wake you up.

[Pego]

Put more bluntly, since that seems to be the only language Mats understands: Pego is an MD. He's playing "amateur" nothing.

I am sorry GH. MDs don't do research. I do. They use the facts that we give them. Anyhow, I will stop the cock-measuring contest right now. His response was naive indeed. He ought to know better than comparing ephedrine to caffeine. They are two different animals in the hands of an uneducated athlete.

Fine, what type of research do you do to make you qualified as an expert on stimulants? Mind you, I don't want an argument, but you called me an amateur, you said I don't know what I am talking about, so show us where your expertise comes from.

[Mats Nilsson]

Stop playing amateur biologist.

Lol! TAFNY for most uninformed criticism.

Oh, and nice cut-and-paste job, btw:
http://www.ephedra-mahuang.com/Drugs_an ... drine.html

This kinda stuff is Pego's field of work. He doesn't need to cut and paste his info. I, and pretty much everyone else on here, would trust what he says far more than someone who has to paste their info from a random medical site.

Let's see if my credentials are sufficient for Mats.

MD from Komensky University, Bratislava - 1962
Neurology residency - University of Arizona - 1970-73
Past president Wisconsin Neurological Society

Now Mats' arguments about ephedrine. As is obvious from the above dates, I spent some time in medicine when caffeine and ephedrine were pretty much the only available stimulants available.

1. Comparison with amphetamines is quite inappropriate. While they are both stimulants, ephedrine always belonged in the class of "central stimulants with caffeine and strychnine as I said earlier.
2. Certainly you can overdose on ephedrine just as you can overdose on any and every chemical substance. You could cause death by drinking too much of water and yet, nobody would consider banning water, would they?
3. A psychosis from a chronic use of ephedrine is a possibility and may have occurred. I have never personally seen it in 45 years in this racket. I have seen many cases of caffeine addiction, though. Of this class, the most dangerous is, of course, strychnine. Even that is (or used to be) quite popular among the mounteneers of Switzerland for its stimulant efficacy.
4. Nobody ever showed either caffeine or ephedrine to produce a PED effect. Obviously, if you are sleepy for whatever reason at the time of your competition, it will wake you up.

Where is your publication list? Nowhere to be found? Thought so. Show me your 100 pubs in peer-reviewed journals and then I will rest my case [I admit that I am not well published but I don't flash my credentials either. You just did]. For now there is clear-cut evidence (in addition to anecdotal evidence=right up an MDs ally right?) in the pub along with reference list that I gave in my original post. Stop spreading your disinformation. Unfortunately people like GH and Pego will always be impressed MD credentials. Those of us actively in the research field are not.

You know as well as me that you guys are generally not doing any research whatsoever and you are using the knowledge that have been passed on from us researchers. So stop flashing your credentials please. They mean nothing in the research field unless you have the pubs to go with it. Sorry.

[Mats Nilsson]

Put more bluntly, since that seems to be the only language Mats understands: Pego is an MD. He's playing "amateur" nothing.

I am sorry GH. MDs don't do research. I do. They use the facts that we give them. Anyhow, I will stop the cock-measuring contest right now. His response was naive indeed. He ought to know better than comparing ephedrine to caffeine. They are two different animals in the hands of an uneducated athlete.

Fine, what type of research do you do to make you qualified as an expert on stimulants? Mind you, I don't want an argument, but you called me an amateur, you said I don't know what I am talking about, so show us where your expertise comes from.

At the moment I am working in a lab focusing on the effects of microgravity of skeleton. Most of our research is sponosered by NASA or DOD. One of our projects dealt with the effects of dobutamine (B1 adrenergic agonist) adminstration on skeletal blood flow and overall effects on the human physique. Anyhow.......this squabble has nothing to do with our credentials.........just read the freaking reference and the references that this person gives in her/his paper and you will have a fair view of what I am talking about. It takes no expertise to understand this. Ephedrine is performance enhancing especially when taken with caffeine and Beckford is/was a darn cheater. He may be great person other than that, but that is not the point of these threads.

[Pego]

The only thing I'll agree with in your post is that the MD by your name does not make you an expert in all things biological. I never claimed that distinction. I do, however, have a solid background in the function of the human nervous system.
Show me any credible evidence where ephedrine improved performance (not anecdotal, but solidly documented) and I'll shut up. There is plenty of evidence for steroids, for HGH and for hematocrit enhancers. I am not familiar with any for the stimulants.

[Mats Nilsson]

The only thing I'll agree with in your post is that the MD by your name does not make you an expert in all things biological. I never claimed that distinction. I do, however, have a solid background in the function of the human nervous system.
Show me any credible evidence where ephedrine improved performance (not anecdotal, but solidly documented) and I'll shut up. There is plenty of evidence for steroids, for HGH and for hematocrit enhancers. I am not familiar with any for the stimulants.

Ok, I will state it again: Look up the reference that I gave in the original post [it is underlined]. Go to pubmed and do a litsearch (authors name + ephedrine) and you will find this pub. Once you have this pub then you use the reference list in the paper as a guide. Anyhow, if the abstracts exist on pubmed (which they do in this case) then they are credible sources and published in peer-reviewed journals. I am not going to do this leg-work for you Pego. Sorry for being rude and defensive. There was no need for that.