Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva


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Postby El Toro » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:04 pm

So when the IAAF does a no-advance-notice, out-of-competition test in Canada, does that make it NANOOC of the North?
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Postby andyjgt » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:07 pm

mark wrote:I don't have any concerns about Romanian athletes. I find that their big names compete a lot on the international circuit and are consistent. When there have been doping incidents; Iagar, Beclea, Melinte we heard about them and there were suspensions. Physically I have found only one of their major female athletes "questionable" and the developemnt curves of their biggest names have tended to be reasonable. Romania have also not had disordinate success in the heavy throws.
Admittedly another nation beginning with B does tend to raise my heckles but thats another story....


I'm not sure how suspect Romanians are, they are/were more female-dominated than ANY other country, even in Soviet times (the GDR had a VERY good male team...), but other countries (notably Bulgaria) have a MORE female-dominated team than in the old days...
Croatia seem slightly iffy to me, since this small country is suddenly a power in the throws... and some runner who ran 2:21 in the WY (in Debrecen!), despite having a PB of 2:12, improves last year to 2 flat (2:11 - 2:06 -2:04 - 2:00 none of which were regularly run in that year), while never promising such an improvement beforehand.
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Postby Tristan » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:06 pm

Pego wrote:When women started being tested for Barr bodies, a lot of things were "obvious" to a lot of people. The Press sisters, Irena Kirszenstein were "obvious". Guess what? They passed and Irena got married, had a child (what better proof she is a real female?).
The ones that flunked the test (Schchelkanova, Klobukowska) struck everybody as "pretty girls", nobody would predict it.
I may not be surprised, because after Gatlin, hardly anything can surprise me anymore, but to me nobody, absolutely nobody is obvious.


why bring up unfortunate klobukowska? i mean, are you saying she was a "cheat?"
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:16 pm

El Toro wrote:So when the IAAF does a no-advance-notice, out-of-competition test in Canada, does that make it NANOOC of the North?


that is very good!
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:54 pm

Bergqvist finally at ease -- after 10 years of suspicion:

Kajsa Bergqvist blev både lättad och glad när hon fick reda på att konkurrenten Venelina Veneva åkt fast för dopning med testosteron.

-Jag har misstänkt henne i nästan tio års tid, säger Bergqvist till TT.

-Så som hon har lagt upp sina säsonger och plötsligt dykt upp på mästerskap har jag fattat att det varit något skumt. Att hon äntligen är fast är en oerhörd lättnad men man hade hoppats att det hade skett tidigare, säger Kajsa Bergqvist.

TV4
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Postby Pego » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:55 am

Tristan wrote:
Pego wrote:When women started being tested for Barr bodies, a lot of things were "obvious" to a lot of people. The Press sisters, Irena Kirszenstein were "obvious". Guess what? They passed and Irena got married, had a child (what better proof she is a real female?).
The ones that flunked the test (Schchelkanova, Klobukowska) struck everybody as "pretty girls", nobody would predict it.
I may not be surprised, because after Gatlin, hardly anything can surprise me anymore, but to me nobody, absolutely nobody is obvious.


why bring up unfortunate klobukowska? i mean, are you saying she was a "cheat?"


I am with you. If you re-read the exchange, I am saying that to say something is "obvious", it usually isn't.
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Postby Pego » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:01 am

EPelle wrote:Pego, therein is the challenge: we:re not on the playing field with these people. When other athletes freeze you out and begin making comments, that should be at least cause to stop and ascertain why they may be doing so.


I agree. That's what the testing is for. We have seen many accusations thrown at people based on a little more than suppositions. It was suggested for comparison that criminal investigation also does not require "absolute" proof. It is true, but SOME physical evidence is generally required (or, it should be).
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:09 am

Good, we:re both in agreement!

Swedish newspapers have the Budapest tests as targeted ones, with Stambolova and Veneva both out-of-competition tested at the same place at the same time away from home. Veneva failed her other test in Sofia. One theory is that an informant tipped testers on the 24/7/365 IAAF informant line which athletes are able to call in order to leave tips.
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Postby marknhj » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:51 am

EPelle wrote:Bergqvist finally at ease -- after 10 years of suspicion:

Kajsa Bergqvist blev både lättad och glad när hon fick reda på att konkurrenten Venelina Veneva åkt fast för dopning med testosteron.

-Jag har misstänkt henne i nästan tio års tid, säger Bergqvist till TT.

-Så som hon har lagt upp sina säsonger och plötsligt dykt upp på mästerskap har jag fattat att det varit något skumt. Att hon äntligen är fast är en oerhörd lättnad men man hade hoppats att det hade skett tidigare, säger Kajsa Bergqvist.

TV4


Translation please!
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:30 am

Kajsa became both relieved and glad when she learned that rival Venelina Veneva was caught for doping with testosterone.

"I have suspected her for almost 10 years time," says Bergqvist to TT.

"As [the way] she has set up her seasons and suddenly appeared at championships, I have understood that there was something shady. That she has finally gotten caught is an unbelievable relief, but one had hoped that it could have occured earlier," says Kajsa Bergqvist.
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Postby Flumpy » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:44 am

eldrick wrote:
Flumpy wrote:c'mon flumps

are you saying that you thought gatlin was a doper when he ran 10.08ajr/19.86 as a college boy ?

when he turned pro, he won golds, got new coach & his 100 time went to 9.77wr, but his 200 went to 20.01 ?

that struck me as tilting his speed-endurance curve in favor of the 100 & giving up on 200 times


I thought Gatlin was a doper the minute he hooked up with Trevor Graham.

Absolutely no surprises there at all.
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Postby Flumpy » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:53 am

EPelle wrote:
Kajsa became both relieved and glad when she learned that rival Venelina Veneva was caught for doping with testosterone.

"I have suspected her for almost 10 years time," says Bergqvist to TT.

"As [the way] she has set up her seasons and suddenly appeared at championships, I have understood that there was something shady. That she has finally gotten caught is an unbelievable relief, but one had hoped that it could have occured earlier," says Kajsa Bergqvist.


I think we can safely say that Kasja speaks for us all there.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:43 am

Flumpy wrote:
eldrick wrote:c'mon flumps

are you saying that you thought gatlin was a doper when he ran 10.08ajr/19.86 as a college boy ?

when he turned pro, he won golds, got new coach & his 100 time went to 9.77wr, but his 200 went to 20.01 ?

that struck me as tilting his speed-endurance curve in favor of the 100 & giving up on 200 times

I thought Gatlin was a doper the minute he hooked up with Trevor Graham.

Absolutely no surprises there at all.


well, trevor managed to get him to win a 200 title, but flushed his 200 times down the drain
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:49 am

Flumpy wrote:
EPelle wrote:
Kajsa became both relieved and glad when she learned that rival Venelina Veneva was caught for doping with testosterone.

"I have suspected her for almost 10 years time," says Bergqvist to TT.

"As [the way] she has set up her seasons and suddenly appeared at championships, I have understood that there was something shady. That she has finally gotten caught is an unbelievable relief, but one had hoped that it could have occured earlier," says Kajsa Bergqvist.


I think we can safely say that Kasja speaks for us all there.


if she'd been doping consistently for many years you woud have at least expected a sustained high-level of performance for a good few years - like ben johnson running 9.95 from '85 onwards ( which was low-altitude wr at the time ) to 9.79 in '88

steroids are supposed to give you a sustained residual effect ( some people argue 2y bans are too short as steroid improvements may last longer than this ) - which is not consistent with jumping 1.90+ in early season & 2.00++ later on - you'd have expected her to have hardly ever dipped under 2.00 if she'd been doping for years
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Postby Flumpy » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:03 am

eldrick wrote:if she'd been doping consistently for many years you woud have at least expected a sustained high-level of performance for a good few years - like ben johnson running 9.95 from '85 onwards ( which was low-altitude wr at the time ) to 9.79 in '88

steroids are supposed to give you a sustained residual effect ( some people argue 2y bans are too short as steroid improvements may last longer than this ) - which is not consistent with jumping 1.90+ in early season & 2.00++ later on - you'd have expected her to have hardly ever dipped under 2.00 if she'd been doping for years


Don't be ridiculous. In a technical event like the HJ there are all kinds of reasons that you might not the results you want whether you are doped or not.

Anyway it's not just performances that make some cheats obvious.

http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/71631 ... BBC6742ACA

I rest my case.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:27 am

it doesn't explain why most every year her early season started out crap & then improved, unless she made a point of being technically crap each & every early season

assuming that wasn't the case & she tried hard technically every year from the start, i'd have expected at least some improved progression year upon year even from the start if on steroids long term :

1.90 - one year
1.92 - the next
1.94 - the next after
1.96 - following, etc...

steroids make you bigger & stronger for a long time & even if she had technical issues each early season, you'd still expect a derisory 1.90 when she 1st started off, to be a good few cm higher a few years on the drugs with similar technical deficiencies
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:21 pm

Veneva jumped 2.03m in May last year, 1.98m at the beginning of June in 2005 (5th in the world), 2.01m in early June in 2004, 2.04m (WL) in early June in 2001, 2.01m in early June again in 2000 plus a world-leading leap of 2.03m in May 1998 so that completely rubbishes your argument.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:45 pm

it wasn't me who originally stated that she started off each season as crap & then miraculously got better at culmination - that was 2nd hand info

your stats show she didn't have early-season technical problems & she was generally excellent when she competed

she even seemed similar in abilty between '98 - '06, which is not the expected steroid gradual improvement progression
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Postby jla » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:45 pm

eldrick wrote:it doesn't explain why most every year her early season started out crap & then improved, unless she made a point of being technically crap each & every early season


No, the typical Veneva season was not "starting out crap & then improve". Rather the opposite:

It was jumping great heights early in the summer in non-major meets close to home (Bulgaria or Greece) and almost no competition at all during the month or so leading up to the major championships. She was usually conspicuously absent from the major GP/GL-meets during the main part of the season where all the other top jumpers competed against each other.

Out of her fourteen 2.00+ outdoor meets between 1998 and 2006 seven were in Greece and two in Bulgaria. All these nine meets were between 23 May and 6 June! (Of the remaining five 2.00+ meets three came in August 2006.)

It is inevitable that a consistent competitive pattern like that during a career stretching over a decade raises questions, especially among the other world class high jumpers.

That she - until the 2006 Europeans - always failed to reproduce anything even close to her early season form at the championships was also contributing to the suspicions.
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Postby pela2 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:50 pm

Veneva's all +=1.98 competitions outdoors

2.04 1 Kalamáta 02.06.2001
2.04 1 Zürich 18.08.2006
2.03 1 Kalámai 23.05.1998
2.03 1 Filothei 31.05.2006
2.03 2 Göteborg 11.08.2006
2.01 1 Kalámai 04.06.2000
2.01 1 Rieti 07.09.2003
2.01 1 Plovdiv 06.06.2004
2.00 1 Filothei 31.05.2000
2.00 1 Sofia 27.05.2001
2.00 1 Athínai 30.05.2001
2.00 1 Saint-Denis 06.07.2001
2.00 1 Kalamáta 03.06.2006
2.00 1 Rieti 27.08.2006
1.98 1 Saint-Denis 04.06.1998
1.98 4 Saint-Denis 31.08.2003
1.98 4= Bruxelles 05.09.2003
1.98 1 Istanbul 04.06.2005
1.98 2 Bruxelles 25.08.2006
1.98 3 Zagreb 31.08.2006
1.98 3 Stuttgart 09.09.2006
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:01 pm

jla wrote:It was jumping great heights early in the summer in non-major meets close to home (Bulgaria or Greece) and almost no competition at all during the month or so leading up to the major championships. She was usually conspicuously absent from the major GP/GL-meets during the main part of the season where all the other top jumpers competed against each other.

Out of her fourteen 2.00+ outdoor meets between 1998 and 2006 seven were in Greece and two in Bulgaria. All these nine meets were between 23 May and 6 June! (Of the remaining five 2.00+ meets three came in August 2006.)

It is inevitable that a consistent competitive pattern like that during a career stretching over a decade raises questions, especially among the other world class high jumpers


whether this is a hj specific issue or not, we'd need to ask an elite jumper

same pattern holds little/no significance for runners :

russian 400 women don't compete much on the circuit & bucketloads of them run ~50-flat back home & usually one of them gets a bronze in the global

no one bats an eyelid that they hardly compete on the circuit but medal in globals

ethiopians also, aren't much for running on the circuit when it's a season with a global - they usually run maybe 1st golden league of the year & then go off training for 2/12 before the global :

defar set 5k wr in oslo & promptly said she's not running on the circuit again unil after osaka & going off to train

anyone here regard that as "suspicious" & obviously a sign of doping as she doesn't want to compete on the circuit for 2/12 ?

circuit's there if you want to make money - if money is not your motivator & you don't want to spend week after week in hotels & planes & therefore not compete on the circuit, why does that immediately mean we have to think they are doping ?
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:19 pm

But Defar did run again after Oslo. She ran in Ostrava and she was going to run in Rome, before being called back to run at the All-Africa Games.

They do compete an awful lot in non-championship seasons, compared to Veneva, who just seems to skulk around in her own backyard.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:22 pm

how often did geb run on the circuit when there was a global that year ?

as for veneva, above shows she competed plenty in greece ( not her home country ) & i assume those meets were "open", so if any of the top hj'ers in the world wanted to specifically compete against her, all they had to do was pick up the phone...
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:32 pm

eldrick, how many of Geb:s colleagues/rivals openly freeze him out? Are glad that anyone but Geb stands on top of the medal stand due to suspicion of him doping? That occured in my backyard last summer: The entire high jump field sans Veneva was happy that she didn:t take the top spot.

You:ve gotten info from all sides including from one of the foremost respected in this sport, and still you put up your little roadblocks. What is your malfunction on this, that or any other possible drugs positives?
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Postby nevetsllim » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:33 pm

eldrick wrote:how often did geb run on the circuit when there was a global that year ?


1993-6 XC races, African Champs, London then Zurich
1995-1 XC race, Kerkrade, Hengelo, Lille then Paris
1997-5 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Nurnberg, Paris then Oslo
1999-7 indoor races, Hengelo, Stuttgart, Helsinki, Gateshead, Oslo, Nice, London, Zurich
2000-Injured beforehand but raced in Milan, Nurnberg, London and Zurich
2001-Injured
2003-4 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Rome then London
2004-Injured but still raced at Hengelo and London.

Doesn't seem any more or any less than any other top name on the circuit and besides, you can hardly compare a high jumper to a distance runner.

Are you standing up for Veneva?
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Postby jla » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:40 pm

eldrick wrote:[
whether this is a hj specific issue or not, we'd need to ask an elite jumper
same pattern holds little/no significance for runners :
ethiopians also, aren't much for running on the circuit when it's a season with a global - they usually run maybe 1st golden league of the year & then go off training for 2/12 before the global :
defar set 5k wr in oslo & promptly said she's not running on the circuit again unil after osaka & going off to train
anyone here regard that as "suspicious" & obviously a sign of doping as she doesn't want to compete on the circuit for 2/12 ?
circuit's there if you want to make money - if money is not your motivator & you don't want to spend week after week in hotels & planes & therefore not compete on the circuit, why does that immediately mean we have to think they are doping ?


1. It is not about competing restrictively on the circuit in some years, it is about "always" staying away completely from major international meets (GL and SGP - where there is testing) during the main part of the season.
2. Competing on the circuit is NOT just about the money - it is rather about doing what you love and what you train for day in and day out. If you see yourself as belonging to the world elite you would of course take almost every opportunity to compete against your peers.
3. Just look at the high hurdlers (both male and female) that face off almost on a daily basis during the summer months.
4. Looking specifically at the women's HJ all other jumpers of 2m-capacity during the last decade have regardless of nationality been very much present on the circuit: Babakova, Cloete, Bergqvist, Slesarenko, Chicherova, Kuptsova, Vlasic, Hellebaut, ....
5. As concerns Russian 400m runners one should notice that Meeting Directors can't accomodate all of those somewhat anonymous 50-something runners (the number of lanes available is limited and must be used in an optimal way to create the best possible "show"). But a 2.04 high jumper would always be welcome at any meet.
6. Defar ran 7 races on the tour in 2005, 11 last year and 3 so far this year (plus the African Ch). And those races have also all been at the major meets (usually GL or SGP) and she has consistently produced top-quality performances (including some WR's). I.e. absolutely no resemblance with the Veneva pattern.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:47 pm

EPelle wrote:eldrick, how many of Geb:s colleagues/rivals openly freeze him out? Are glad that anyone but Geb stands on top of the medal stand due to suspicion of him doping? That occured in my backyard last summer: The entire high jump field sans Veneva was happy that she didn:t take the top spot.

You:ve gotten info from all sides including from one of the foremost respected in this sport, and still you put up your little roadblocks. What is your malfunction on this, that or any other possible drugs positives?


lets see, a little high-5'ing between the conspiratorial kajsa & tia & now you claim all 9 other members in the event felt the same ???

go apply to the fbi, they need a mind-reader

as for tia, the gal's only been competing about 2y in elite hj'ing !

how on earth woud she have a clue about optimal competitive frequency in the event ?!

as for kajsa's opinion, do you honestly think i give a damn what she thought of veneva ?

if she can tell these dopers just by looking at them, mabe she shoud apply to wada tell them to scrap all testing, pay her their $20 million/year budget & she'll just wander around at every meet, point out who she believes is guilty & all those immediately get 2y bans or lifetime ones when she points them out again on their return
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:55 pm

nevetsllim wrote:
eldrick wrote:how often did geb run on the circuit when there was a global that year ?


1993-6 XC races, African Champs, London then Zurich
1995-1 XC race, Kerkrade, Hengelo, Lille then Paris
1997-5 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Nurnberg, Paris then Oslo
1999-7 indoor races, Hengelo, Stuttgart, Helsinki, Gateshead, Oslo, Nice, London, Zurich
2000-Injured beforehand but raced in Milan, Nurnberg, London and Zurich
2001-Injured
2003-4 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Rome then London
2004-Injured but still raced at Hengelo and London.

Doesn't seem any more or any less than any other top name on the circuit and besides, you can hardly compare a high jumper to a distance runner.


i'm looking for all those oslo, paris, rome, monaco, zurich, brussels, berlin - the "proper" meets - not too many "full-houses" on his cv in those years...
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:24 pm

jla wrote:1. It is not about competing restrictively on the circuit in some years, it is about "always" staying away completely from major international meets (GL and SGP - where there is testing) during the main part of the season.
2. Competing on the circuit is NOT just about the money - it is rather about doing what you love and what you train for day in and day out. If you see yourself as belonging to the world elite you would of course take almost every opportunity to compete against your peers.
3. Just look at the high hurdlers (both male and female) that face off almost on a daily basis during the summer months.
4. Looking specifically at the women's HJ all other jumpers of 2m-capacity during the last decade have regardless of nationality been very much present on the circuit: Babakova, Cloete, Bergqvist, Slesarenko, Chicherova, Kuptsova, Vlasic, Hellebaut, ....
5. As concerns Russian 400m runners one should notice that Meeting Directors can't accomodate all of those somewhat anonymous 50-something runners (the number of lanes available is limited and must be used in an optimal way to create the best possible "show"). But a 2.04 high jumper would always be welcome at any meet.
6. Defar ran 7 races on the tour in 2005, 11 last year and 3 so far this year (plus the African Ch). And those races have also all been at the major meets (usually GL or SGP) and she has consistently produced top-quality performances (including some WR's). I.e. absolutely no resemblance with the Veneva pattern.


1 ) so ?

she's competing plenty in other meets, so what's the problem ?

those meets "not good enough" for you ?

or don't they drug-test in greek bulgarian meets ?

2 ) i'm sure that lecture goes down well with wide-eyed, naive teenagers, but we are adults on this forum

the motivational factors to be an elite athlete must be numerous & complex & to believe all have the same belief of wanting to compete against elite others at frequent intervals is naive

3) one particular event - other events like womens 400/200 & lesser extent the 100, hardly any of the elite eastern euros compete against the western women

4) so ?

where's the rule in the hj manual saying :

"in order to succeed at elite level, it is mandatory you compete frequently against every other elite hj'er" ???

5) nonsense

golden league meets have ~ 3 elite 50-flat or better gals & the rest are drifting down to mid-50 - 51

do you honestly think any meet promoter woud want to keep those 5 mid-50 - 51 muppets in his race if he coud get his hands on 3 or 4, 50-flat ruskies ???

6) defar runs plenty on the circuit in non-global years, but like the other ethiopians much less in global years - are we supposed to be suspicious that all the time she/they spend away from he circuit in those years is not due to some specific training regime, but to hide away so that they can dope up ready for the global ?
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Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:33 pm

Eldy, you are starting be on the not very persuasive side of this discussion. The distance runners, who cannot pull the cord very often, have a much greater frequency of appearance. Comparing the Bulgarian/Greek meets to the top of the Circuit is just pointing out how different her approach is, with well-suspected reasoning for the differences.
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Postby jla » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:27 pm

eldrick wrote:1 ) so ?
she's competing plenty in other meets, so what's the problem ?
those meets "not good enough" for you ?
or don't they drug-test in greek bulgarian meets ?
2 ) i'm sure that lecture goes down well with wide-eyed, naive teenagers, but we are adults on this forum
the motivational factors to be an elite athlete must be numerous & complex & to believe all have the same belief of wanting to compete against elite others at frequent intervals is naive
3) one particular event - other events like womens 400/200 & lesser extent the 100, hardly any of the elite eastern euros compete against the western women
4) so ?
where's the rule in the hj manual saying :
"in order to succeed at elite level, it is mandatory you compete frequently against every other elite hj'er" ???
5) nonsense
golden league meets have ~ 3 elite 50-flat or better gals & the rest are drifting down to mid-50 - 51
do you honestly think any meet promoter woud want to keep those 5 mid-50 - 51 muppets in his race if he coud get his hands on 3 or 4, 50-flat ruskies ???
6) defar runs plenty on the circuit in non-global years, but like the other ethiopians much less in global years - are we supposed to be suspicious that all the time she/they spend away from he circuit in those years is not due to some specific training regime, but to hide away so that they can dope up ready for the global ?


1. No, the fact is that she NEVER ever competed in "plenty" other meets. She always competed in very few meets and those were mainly low-key ones in late May and early June, i.e. before the main season. When you look at the list from pela above we are talking about the record of a complete world class career. Still only 21 meets at 1.98+ from the 9-year period 1998-2006.

Also: While someone like Slesarenko has her top-10 marks from Athens (OG), Bydgoszcz (ECup), Rome (GL), Lausanne (SGP), Oslo (GL), Munich (ECup), Prague, Monaco (GPF), Brussels (GL) and Moscow the same list for Veneva reads Kalamata, Zurich (GL), Kalamata, Filothei, Gothenburg (ECh), Kalamata, Rieti, Plovdiv, Filothei and Sofia.

2. Sports is about competing and athletics would die immediately if athletes in general adopted the same extremely restrictive and isolated competitive philosophy as Veneva (and as people like Kenteris).
Actually it could be claimed that top athletes have a responsibility to compete on the circuit to promote the sport. Otherwise the sport would be completely invisible to the general public. Which would mean no paying spectators, no sponsors, not TV exposure - and no money to earn.
And we wouldn't have any GL or GP meets on TV to watch and discuss on this board ...
Also: You never see top tennis players or golfers just doing a couple of low-key local events against nobody of significance before going to Wimbledon or British Open. Why should it be any different in athletics?

4. See 2. above.

5. When it comes to using the limited number of lanes in events over one lap or less Meeting Directors have many factors to consider. Bringing the top-8 statistically regardless of nationality is usually not good business. Having a good mix of nationalities is certainly one (the No 4 from any foreign nation is usually too anonymous and unmarketable to be of any interest to specatators or media outside of that nation) thing to strive for.

6. As I said before: Considering that Defar is a long distance runner and has obligations to compete in regional championships her presence on the circuit is completely satisfactory.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:41 pm

eldrick wrote:lets see, a little high-5'ing between the conspiratorial kajsa & tia & now you claim all 9 other members in the event felt the same ???

go apply to the fbi, they need a mind-reader

as for tia, the gal's only been competing about 2y in elite hj'ing !

how on earth woud she have a clue about optimal competitive frequency in the event ?!

as for kajsa's opinion, do you honestly think i give a damn what she thought of veneva ?

if she can tell these dopers just by looking at them, mabe she shoud apply to wada tell them to scrap all testing, pay her their $20 million/year budget & she'll just wander around at every meet, point out who she believes is guilty & all those immediately get 2y bans or lifetime ones when she points them out again on their return

eldrick, discussing this issue with you is like trying to draw water from a Kenyan weed in the desert.

When you get this figured out, come back and insert a new coin to play again:

-Det ska bli skönt att slippa se henne. När jag tog brons och hon silver i Göteborgs-EM var alla hoppare otroligt glada att hon inte tog guld.

Actually, don:t reach into your pocket. The theme of your posts here and every other one which touches on the subject of doping is, quote, "I'd wait for real evidence".

Two positive tests from said athlete isn:t evidence, no? eldrick, you:re on the wrong side of "right" here. Your attempts at proving that Veneva has not doped are going to be as in vain as attempting to chase feathers in a wind storm.
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Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:20 am

EPelle wrote:Actually, don:t reach into your pocket. The theme of your posts here and every other one which touches on the subject of doping is, quote, "I'd wait for real evidence".

Two positive tests from said athlete isn:t evidence, no? eldrick, you:re on the wrong side of "right" here. Your attempts at proving that Veneva has not doped are going to be as in vain as attempting to chase feathers in a wind storm.


I am afraid Eldrick's argument is being twisted here. Nowhere do I see him questioning Veneva's positive. What he does is to argue against "evidence" suggesting she was a doper based on her appearances or lack of at certain meets.
Let me join him in my own skepticism over jla's "evidence". I see Zűrich, Euros there, not just the Plovdivs or Kalamatas.
Well, Veneva was caught and is undoubtably a toast, rightfully so. I will remain, rather vehemently, opposed to those that manufacture "evidence" to suspect athletes, who might be clean. I am also very much in favor of T&FN strictly policing such accusations.
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Postby Jaack » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:44 am

EPelle wrote:
-Det ska bli skönt att slippa se henne. När jag tog brons och hon silver i Göteborgs-EM var alla hoppare otroligt glada att hon inte tog guld.

Actually, don:t reach into your pocket. The theme of your posts here and every other one which touches on the subject of doping is, quote, "I'd wait for real evidence".

Two positive tests from said athlete isn:t evidence, no? eldrick, you:re on the wrong side of "right" here. Your attempts at proving that Veneva has not doped are going to be as in vain as attempting to chase feathers in a wind storm.

Agreed!

Can I just point out the fact that Stambolova actually competed pretty much everywhere last year, ran in the big meets, little meets, cups and challenges and still managed to avoid a positive test.


On the flip Side, her other European challengers, Zaitseva and Veshkurova ran super quick times with only races in Russia and in the Euro's! So, to a point- it's not really important if one simply "Turns up at the majors" - Drug cheats give themselves away- in Stombolva's case it was the following:

Posted 28th June 2006
Jaack wrote:
Jon wrote:22.81/50.06 double from Stambolova on Sunday in Plovdiv.
I just don't understand where Stambolova has come from! According to Iaaf, she ran 58.x in her heat at worlds 400mh! A year later and she's 50'0, 22'8, 54.x!?? Ehm -nah!



Again, can I ask- HOW do drugs help a highjumper-

IMO, without drugs- Not only would Veneva a) look like a woman b) sound like a woman C) have a face clear of teenage acne but she'd also still be able to challenge given her great technique and natural jumping ability!

Don't understand a highjumper, or indeed Pole Vaulter (GIbilisco) taking drugs!?? :shock:
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Postby nevetsllim » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:53 am

eldrick wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:
eldrick wrote:how often did geb run on the circuit when there was a global that year ?


1993-6 XC races, African Champs, London then Zurich
1995-1 XC race, Kerkrade, Hengelo, Lille then Paris
1997-5 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Nurnberg, Paris then Oslo
1999-7 indoor races, Hengelo, Stuttgart, Helsinki, Gateshead, Oslo, Nice, London, Zurich
2000-Injured beforehand but raced in Milan, Nurnberg, London and Zurich
2001-Injured
2003-4 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Rome then London
2004-Injured but still raced at Hengelo and London.

Doesn't seem any more or any less than any other top name on the circuit and besides, you can hardly compare a high jumper to a distance runner.


i'm looking for all those oslo, paris, rome, monaco, zurich, brussels, berlin - the "proper" meets - not too many "full-houses" on his cv in those years...


I thought you were asking where he raced before the champs.

In 95, he did Zurich, Berlin, GPF
In 97, Zurich, Brussels, Berlin
In 99, none
In 01, road racing circuit
In 03, Brussels 10000
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:16 am

Pego wrote:I am afraid Eldrick's argument is being twisted here. Nowhere do I see him questioning Veneva's positive. What he does is to argue against "evidence" suggesting she was a doper based on her appearances or lack of at certain meets.

What he also does is avoid grounded suspicion based on what both you and I agreed upon earlier, namely that it should be the athletes on the field who should be first to make such "claims", not us. Pego, those athletes have, yet eldrick -- in his shifting of arguments -- states:

"lets see, a little high-5'ing between the conspiratorial kajsa & tia & now you claim all 9 other members in the event felt the same ???"

Firstly, do you see how Kajsa got a fore-name, namely "conspiratorial", when it was time to answer? She was simply Kajsa Bergqvist to eldrick prior to this thread; oddly it was changed to fit eldrick:s point-of-view once he was alerted to the fact that she suspected Veneva as being a cheat. Next, it was known fact that others were freezing out Veneva. I saw it live on the field, I watched it on television, and I got a first-hand account (of suspicion) from a competitor of hers who shall remain nameless. Thirdly, logic doesn:t allow for a high jump competitor to disappear for six weeks, win a major title and go for a world-record height the following week -- something the source repeated to me four weeks following EC:s in Göteborg.

eldrick may not be denying the doping claim. He is, however, denying that such suspicions were, indeed, valid as well as denying that Veneva was not liked. He can:t get any more proof than what Kajsa stated in the newspaper, yet he twists that from being ALL (as was stated by Bergqvist) to be a couple of people -- a conspirator and a two-year professional high jumper -- to his benefit and away from the truth which was contained in the statement.

Before Ben Johnson tested positive, Carl Lewis said he suspected him of having taken performance-enhancing drugs, because nobody could run that fast without being aided by drugs. How is this any different -- especially when both Johnson and Veneva were caught using drugs following suspicions MADE BY ATHLETES?
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Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:24 am

EPelle wrote:What he also does is avoid grounded suspicion based on what both you and I agreed upon earlier, namely that it should be the athletes on the field who should be first to make such "claims", not us.


Sorry Eric, I don't agree with that. If it sounded like that earlier, I'll retract it. I don't care for finger-pointing by anybody. Testing, testing, testing. If there is physical evidence, nail them. If there isn't, shut up. Pretty simple, really :D .
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Postby gh » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:00 am

Thanks Pego for pointing out that the tenor of this thread/board is getting a tad too witch-hunty for our liking. If you've got facts, bring them.

While the purpose of the Board in general is a free exchange of ideas, that doesn't mean open season on accusations.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:03 am

Facts:

"The two athletes have not attempted to cover anything up and turned in their doping tests as scheduled," BFLA chairman Dobri Karamarinov said.

"When we got the positive results in March 23, we asked for the second sample to be tested. The results were very borderline, but we decided to impose sanctions," he added.

"However, the athletes' lawyers have asked for a detailed analysis, which is within their rights and which IAAF agreed to, only to change their mind later."

This is why BFLA has decided not to impose any sanction. We are not acting as their lawyers, we just want to find out the truth," said Karamarinov.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=83185
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:07 am

gh wrote:While the purpose of the Board in general is a free exchange of ideas, that doesn't mean open season on accusations.

I think you have the wrong thread. These are very specific instances of suspicion on this particular thread brought about by athletes and re-iterated by fans and authorities in the sport who have held the same opinions. Those suspicions are being discussed following the positive, not as accusatory in the absence of one.
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