Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva


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Postby jla » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:27 pm

eldrick wrote:1 ) so ?
she's competing plenty in other meets, so what's the problem ?
those meets "not good enough" for you ?
or don't they drug-test in greek bulgarian meets ?
2 ) i'm sure that lecture goes down well with wide-eyed, naive teenagers, but we are adults on this forum
the motivational factors to be an elite athlete must be numerous & complex & to believe all have the same belief of wanting to compete against elite others at frequent intervals is naive
3) one particular event - other events like womens 400/200 & lesser extent the 100, hardly any of the elite eastern euros compete against the western women
4) so ?
where's the rule in the hj manual saying :
"in order to succeed at elite level, it is mandatory you compete frequently against every other elite hj'er" ???
5) nonsense
golden league meets have ~ 3 elite 50-flat or better gals & the rest are drifting down to mid-50 - 51
do you honestly think any meet promoter woud want to keep those 5 mid-50 - 51 muppets in his race if he coud get his hands on 3 or 4, 50-flat ruskies ???
6) defar runs plenty on the circuit in non-global years, but like the other ethiopians much less in global years - are we supposed to be suspicious that all the time she/they spend away from he circuit in those years is not due to some specific training regime, but to hide away so that they can dope up ready for the global ?


1. No, the fact is that she NEVER ever competed in "plenty" other meets. She always competed in very few meets and those were mainly low-key ones in late May and early June, i.e. before the main season. When you look at the list from pela above we are talking about the record of a complete world class career. Still only 21 meets at 1.98+ from the 9-year period 1998-2006.

Also: While someone like Slesarenko has her top-10 marks from Athens (OG), Bydgoszcz (ECup), Rome (GL), Lausanne (SGP), Oslo (GL), Munich (ECup), Prague, Monaco (GPF), Brussels (GL) and Moscow the same list for Veneva reads Kalamata, Zurich (GL), Kalamata, Filothei, Gothenburg (ECh), Kalamata, Rieti, Plovdiv, Filothei and Sofia.

2. Sports is about competing and athletics would die immediately if athletes in general adopted the same extremely restrictive and isolated competitive philosophy as Veneva (and as people like Kenteris).
Actually it could be claimed that top athletes have a responsibility to compete on the circuit to promote the sport. Otherwise the sport would be completely invisible to the general public. Which would mean no paying spectators, no sponsors, not TV exposure - and no money to earn.
And we wouldn't have any GL or GP meets on TV to watch and discuss on this board ...
Also: You never see top tennis players or golfers just doing a couple of low-key local events against nobody of significance before going to Wimbledon or British Open. Why should it be any different in athletics?

4. See 2. above.

5. When it comes to using the limited number of lanes in events over one lap or less Meeting Directors have many factors to consider. Bringing the top-8 statistically regardless of nationality is usually not good business. Having a good mix of nationalities is certainly one (the No 4 from any foreign nation is usually too anonymous and unmarketable to be of any interest to specatators or media outside of that nation) thing to strive for.

6. As I said before: Considering that Defar is a long distance runner and has obligations to compete in regional championships her presence on the circuit is completely satisfactory.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:41 pm

eldrick wrote:lets see, a little high-5'ing between the conspiratorial kajsa & tia & now you claim all 9 other members in the event felt the same ???

go apply to the fbi, they need a mind-reader

as for tia, the gal's only been competing about 2y in elite hj'ing !

how on earth woud she have a clue about optimal competitive frequency in the event ?!

as for kajsa's opinion, do you honestly think i give a damn what she thought of veneva ?

if she can tell these dopers just by looking at them, mabe she shoud apply to wada tell them to scrap all testing, pay her their $20 million/year budget & she'll just wander around at every meet, point out who she believes is guilty & all those immediately get 2y bans or lifetime ones when she points them out again on their return

eldrick, discussing this issue with you is like trying to draw water from a Kenyan weed in the desert.

When you get this figured out, come back and insert a new coin to play again:

-Det ska bli skönt att slippa se henne. När jag tog brons och hon silver i Göteborgs-EM var alla hoppare otroligt glada att hon inte tog guld.

Actually, don:t reach into your pocket. The theme of your posts here and every other one which touches on the subject of doping is, quote, "I'd wait for real evidence".

Two positive tests from said athlete isn:t evidence, no? eldrick, you:re on the wrong side of "right" here. Your attempts at proving that Veneva has not doped are going to be as in vain as attempting to chase feathers in a wind storm.
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Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:20 am

EPelle wrote:Actually, don:t reach into your pocket. The theme of your posts here and every other one which touches on the subject of doping is, quote, "I'd wait for real evidence".

Two positive tests from said athlete isn:t evidence, no? eldrick, you:re on the wrong side of "right" here. Your attempts at proving that Veneva has not doped are going to be as in vain as attempting to chase feathers in a wind storm.


I am afraid Eldrick's argument is being twisted here. Nowhere do I see him questioning Veneva's positive. What he does is to argue against "evidence" suggesting she was a doper based on her appearances or lack of at certain meets.
Let me join him in my own skepticism over jla's "evidence". I see Zűrich, Euros there, not just the Plovdivs or Kalamatas.
Well, Veneva was caught and is undoubtably a toast, rightfully so. I will remain, rather vehemently, opposed to those that manufacture "evidence" to suspect athletes, who might be clean. I am also very much in favor of T&FN strictly policing such accusations.
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Postby Jaack » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:44 am

EPelle wrote:
-Det ska bli skönt att slippa se henne. När jag tog brons och hon silver i Göteborgs-EM var alla hoppare otroligt glada att hon inte tog guld.

Actually, don:t reach into your pocket. The theme of your posts here and every other one which touches on the subject of doping is, quote, "I'd wait for real evidence".

Two positive tests from said athlete isn:t evidence, no? eldrick, you:re on the wrong side of "right" here. Your attempts at proving that Veneva has not doped are going to be as in vain as attempting to chase feathers in a wind storm.

Agreed!

Can I just point out the fact that Stambolova actually competed pretty much everywhere last year, ran in the big meets, little meets, cups and challenges and still managed to avoid a positive test.


On the flip Side, her other European challengers, Zaitseva and Veshkurova ran super quick times with only races in Russia and in the Euro's! So, to a point- it's not really important if one simply "Turns up at the majors" - Drug cheats give themselves away- in Stombolva's case it was the following:

Posted 28th June 2006
Jaack wrote:
Jon wrote:22.81/50.06 double from Stambolova on Sunday in Plovdiv.
I just don't understand where Stambolova has come from! According to Iaaf, she ran 58.x in her heat at worlds 400mh! A year later and she's 50'0, 22'8, 54.x!?? Ehm -nah!



Again, can I ask- HOW do drugs help a highjumper-

IMO, without drugs- Not only would Veneva a) look like a woman b) sound like a woman C) have a face clear of teenage acne but she'd also still be able to challenge given her great technique and natural jumping ability!

Don't understand a highjumper, or indeed Pole Vaulter (GIbilisco) taking drugs!?? :shock:
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Postby nevetsllim » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:53 am

eldrick wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:
eldrick wrote:how often did geb run on the circuit when there was a global that year ?


1993-6 XC races, African Champs, London then Zurich
1995-1 XC race, Kerkrade, Hengelo, Lille then Paris
1997-5 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Nurnberg, Paris then Oslo
1999-7 indoor races, Hengelo, Stuttgart, Helsinki, Gateshead, Oslo, Nice, London, Zurich
2000-Injured beforehand but raced in Milan, Nurnberg, London and Zurich
2001-Injured
2003-4 indoor races, Hengelo, Paris, Rome then London
2004-Injured but still raced at Hengelo and London.

Doesn't seem any more or any less than any other top name on the circuit and besides, you can hardly compare a high jumper to a distance runner.


i'm looking for all those oslo, paris, rome, monaco, zurich, brussels, berlin - the "proper" meets - not too many "full-houses" on his cv in those years...


I thought you were asking where he raced before the champs.

In 95, he did Zurich, Berlin, GPF
In 97, Zurich, Brussels, Berlin
In 99, none
In 01, road racing circuit
In 03, Brussels 10000
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:16 am

Pego wrote:I am afraid Eldrick's argument is being twisted here. Nowhere do I see him questioning Veneva's positive. What he does is to argue against "evidence" suggesting she was a doper based on her appearances or lack of at certain meets.

What he also does is avoid grounded suspicion based on what both you and I agreed upon earlier, namely that it should be the athletes on the field who should be first to make such "claims", not us. Pego, those athletes have, yet eldrick -- in his shifting of arguments -- states:

"lets see, a little high-5'ing between the conspiratorial kajsa & tia & now you claim all 9 other members in the event felt the same ???"

Firstly, do you see how Kajsa got a fore-name, namely "conspiratorial", when it was time to answer? She was simply Kajsa Bergqvist to eldrick prior to this thread; oddly it was changed to fit eldrick:s point-of-view once he was alerted to the fact that she suspected Veneva as being a cheat. Next, it was known fact that others were freezing out Veneva. I saw it live on the field, I watched it on television, and I got a first-hand account (of suspicion) from a competitor of hers who shall remain nameless. Thirdly, logic doesn:t allow for a high jump competitor to disappear for six weeks, win a major title and go for a world-record height the following week -- something the source repeated to me four weeks following EC:s in Göteborg.

eldrick may not be denying the doping claim. He is, however, denying that such suspicions were, indeed, valid as well as denying that Veneva was not liked. He can:t get any more proof than what Kajsa stated in the newspaper, yet he twists that from being ALL (as was stated by Bergqvist) to be a couple of people -- a conspirator and a two-year professional high jumper -- to his benefit and away from the truth which was contained in the statement.

Before Ben Johnson tested positive, Carl Lewis said he suspected him of having taken performance-enhancing drugs, because nobody could run that fast without being aided by drugs. How is this any different -- especially when both Johnson and Veneva were caught using drugs following suspicions MADE BY ATHLETES?
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Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:24 am

EPelle wrote:What he also does is avoid grounded suspicion based on what both you and I agreed upon earlier, namely that it should be the athletes on the field who should be first to make such "claims", not us.


Sorry Eric, I don't agree with that. If it sounded like that earlier, I'll retract it. I don't care for finger-pointing by anybody. Testing, testing, testing. If there is physical evidence, nail them. If there isn't, shut up. Pretty simple, really :D .
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Postby gh » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:00 am

Thanks Pego for pointing out that the tenor of this thread/board is getting a tad too witch-hunty for our liking. If you've got facts, bring them.

While the purpose of the Board in general is a free exchange of ideas, that doesn't mean open season on accusations.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:03 am

Facts:

"The two athletes have not attempted to cover anything up and turned in their doping tests as scheduled," BFLA chairman Dobri Karamarinov said.

"When we got the positive results in March 23, we asked for the second sample to be tested. The results were very borderline, but we decided to impose sanctions," he added.

"However, the athletes' lawyers have asked for a detailed analysis, which is within their rights and which IAAF agreed to, only to change their mind later."

This is why BFLA has decided not to impose any sanction. We are not acting as their lawyers, we just want to find out the truth," said Karamarinov.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=83185
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:07 am

gh wrote:While the purpose of the Board in general is a free exchange of ideas, that doesn't mean open season on accusations.

I think you have the wrong thread. These are very specific instances of suspicion on this particular thread brought about by athletes and re-iterated by fans and authorities in the sport who have held the same opinions. Those suspicions are being discussed following the positive, not as accusatory in the absence of one.
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Postby gh » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:16 am

I stand by my statement.

This thread/forum has about outlived its current usefulness.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:28 am

Image

Fine. Veneva and company are hard-up for cash and have had rows with their federation for being slow on paying up.

Stambolova denied rumours that she hadn't taken part in the 4x400 baton because the Agency was slow on paying up athletes. Not receiving the earned money was tough, she explained but that wouldn't stop her from competing.

Veneva, who won silver at the high jump, said that she was satisfied with her achievement and that this had been her strongest competition yet.

Wouldn:t the easiest, most logical thing to do be to take matters into your own hands and jump in competitions which paid an appearance fee/place fee instead of barking to your federation for not handing out money? Veneva won €7.500 in Paris some years back, but hasn:t really been anywhere since. Why?

Leading the highlights was the victory of Bulgarian high jumper Venelina Veneva at the Paris Saint-Denis Gaz de France tournament – part of the Golden League, the most prestigious track-and-field chain of competitions. The 27-year-old was the only athlete among the elite jumpers present to overcome the 200cm barrier – easily securing herself the victory. She made three unsuccessful attempts to improve her own best jump of 204cm, the world’s best result this season.

The triumph at the Stad de France in Paris was Veneva’s first victory in a Golden League tournament and she received a premium of 7,500 euros for her efforts. She also won in Paris three years ago, leaping 198cm, but the tournament was not yet included in the prestigious chain.

Gosh, my little pea-brain says the appearance fees and such were non-existent in competing domestically in Bulgaria.
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Postby Jon » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:55 am

Jaack wrote:Again, can I ask- HOW do drugs help a highjumper-
Improves their strength-to-weight ratio - massively important in the HJ.
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Postby Pego » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:19 am

EPelle wrote:Image

Fine. Veneva and company are hard-up for cash and have had rows with their federation for being slow on paying up.

Stambolova denied rumours that she hadn't taken part in the 4x400 baton because the Agency was slow on paying up athletes. Not receiving the earned money was tough, she explained but that wouldn't stop her from competing.

Veneva, who won silver at the high jump, said that she was satisfied with her achievement and that this had been her strongest competition yet.

Wouldn:t the easiest, most logical thing to do be to take matters into your own hands and jump in competitions which paid an appearance fee/place fee instead of barking to your federation for not handing out money? Veneva won €7.500 in Paris some years back, but hasn:t really been anywhere since. Why?

Leading the highlights was the victory of Bulgarian high jumper Venelina Veneva at the Paris Saint-Denis Gaz de France tournament – part of the Golden League, the most prestigious track-and-field chain of competitions. The 27-year-old was the only athlete among the elite jumpers present to overcome the 200cm barrier – easily securing herself the victory. She made three unsuccessful attempts to improve her own best jump of 204cm, the world’s best result this season.

The triumph at the Stad de France in Paris was Veneva’s first victory in a Golden League tournament and she received a premium of 7,500 euros for her efforts. She also won in Paris three years ago, leaping 198cm, but the tournament was not yet included in the prestigious chain.

Gosh, my little pea-brain says the appearance fees and such were non-existent in competing domestically in Bulgaria.


In the post-Soviet era, there are still quite residuals of communist practices even a generation after the fall of communism. When a western athlete earns money, it is his/hers. I am pretty sure the Bulgarians must still negotiate their share with the federation.
I may be mistaken, but this was the case still a couple of years ago. Powell might be up to snuff.
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Postby gh » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:33 am

Jaack wrote:......Again, can I ask- HOW do drugs help a highjumper-
.....Don't understand a highjumper, or indeed Pole Vaulter (GIbilisco) taking drugs!?? :shock:


The reason steroids work for ALL events is because they allow you to do a heavier workload and recover more quickly. You don't just take steroids and overnight you're suddenly a better athlete. To get any benefit, you need to work your ass off. The harder you work, the more the benefit.

Thus the strange setting whereby people sometimes refer to steroids as a "short cut" to excellence, even though it's the other way round. Doesn't make taking them right, but if you want them to work, you need to be prepared to work harder than you did before.
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Postby Flumpy » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:45 pm

gh wrote:Thanks Pego for pointing out that the tenor of this thread/board is getting a tad too witch-hunty for our liking. If you've got facts, bring them.

While the purpose of the Board in general is a free exchange of ideas, that doesn't mean open season on accusations.


I don't understand this at all. Nobody is making any accusations.

There are plenty of athletes that i suspect of drug abuse but I won't be mentioning them here because I know it;s against the rules. That's vert different to discussing those that have already failed tests.
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Postby Flumpy » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:48 pm

Also can you all please stop feeding the eldy troll. When he's in this kind of contrary mood there is absolutely no point having a discussion with him at all. If you say 'black' he'll say 'white' just for effect.

He's just attention seeking, please have the sense to ignore him.
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Postby Mennisco » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:07 pm

Jaack wrote:

Again, can I ask- HOW do drugs help a highjumper-

Don't understand a highjumper, or indeed Pole Vaulter (GIbilisco) taking drugs!?? :shock:


Citius, altius, fortius. Fortius, citius, altius.
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Postby gh » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:44 am

IAAF has rejected the Bulgarian position. See story on front page (am I blind with the new IAAF layout, or do they not have the story on their site?).
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Postby Mennisco » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:56 am

gh wrote:IAAF has rejected the Bulgarian position. See story on front page (am I blind with the new IAAF layout, or do they not have the story on their site?).


Thank God. It's not the International [Loose] Association of Athletic Federations.
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Postby jumplove » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:23 am

bennyg wrote:Anybody who does not believe that the Rumanians and Bulgarians have been cheating for the last few decades, also believes in the toooth fairy.


And what an idiot are you. I am sure that except romanians and bulgarians no other nationalities had EVER cheated..... :roll:
True, its impossible that these 2 countries to have natural born talents..only England, Sweden,USA and few others have that privilege.
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Postby jumplove » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:49 am

"IMO, without drugs- Not only would Veneva a) look like a woman b) sound like a woman C) have a face clear of teenage acne but she'd also still be able to challenge given her great technique and natural jumping ability!
"

Dear people let s not be MEAN and SILLY about female athletes. What the hell could you expect when a women is practicing 6 or more hours a day, does more heavy weightlifting, a normal chick or even guy would think of?? Offcourse they are taking vitamins proteins and aminoacids to supply their extreme loss that comes with heavy consuming practice.
Offcourse there are body changes, offcourse you will see amazing rip muscles in some cases!!!!! THEY ARE PRACTICING HARD FOR GOD SAKE!!!!! PEOPLE ARE ALSO DIFFERENT. A chick with muscle or manly face doesn t AUTOMATICALLY means shes on illegal drugs. There are instances when females or males just produce naturally more testosterone than others.....
Some females or guys are just more masculine or feminine than others!!!!What the hell!!!
Lets stop making mean comments for God sake!!! Just imagine for one second that this women could look like that naturally and because the activity she s doing. How would you feel???
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Postby Flumpy » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:22 am

jumplove wrote: A chick with muscle or manly face doesn t AUTOMATICALLY means shes on illegal drugs.


No, but when she fails a drugs test it's a pretty safe assumption that she is :roll:

And did you really use the expression "chick"???
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:55 am

Flumpy wrote:
jumplove wrote: A chick with muscle or manly face doesn t AUTOMATICALLY means shes on illegal drugs.


No, but when she fails a drugs test it's a pretty safe assumption that she is :roll:

And did you really use the expression "chick"???


Was it failing the first test or failing the second test that tipped you off?
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Postby Jon » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:31 am

A third Bulgarian, 800m runner Teodora Kolarova, has tested positive:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gZU ... xWuIJF0CQg
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