IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive


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IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:51 am

see USA Today story

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-11- ... ples_x.htm

As I read the story, IAAF still hasn't named names, but USA Today says that Toth, Jacobs and McEwen are three of them. DOn't know if they really KNOW that or if they're just going on the leaked reprots.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:17 am

I am SHOCKED by these revelations. I so wanted to believe it was not true. No doubt it is a conspiracy.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby RMc » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:22 am

Ummm, I don't think this is "breaking" news, but maybe USA Today gets its info several weeks after the rest of the US press. That would be par for the course.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Asterix » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:30 am

>Ummm, I don't think this is "breaking" news,

Notice in the first paragraph it refers to 'B' sample positives. When was the first official reference you've seen to those being announced and not just a repeat of suspected 'A' positives?
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby MJD » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:33 am

>When was the first
>official reference you've seen to those being
>announced and not just a repeat of suspected 'A'
>positives?

I know this was a redundant question but this was the first official announcement. A quick review of the THG page on this site will confirm that:

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/ge ... Crisis.jsp


And if USA Today isn't good enough for you then how about a paper that has been all over this story:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... ST0195.DTL
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:17 am

I read an Associated Press story (sorry, I lost the URL) that said that the IAAF doesn't know who the four are because USATF hasn't told them yet! They're also pissed off about it.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Powell » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:25 am

>I read an Associated Press story (sorry, I lost
>the URL) that said that the IAAF doesn't know who
>the four are because USATF hasn't told them yet!
>They're also pissed off about it.

Hmmm... interesting. When I brought up the possibility of USATF covering up the positive test results, I was told they didn't have the power to do it because the results were automatically reported to the IAAF by USADA. Maybe those who claimed to know the procedures so well really didn't...
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby gh » Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:22 pm

Hmmm... interesting. When I brought up the
>possibility of USATF covering up the positive
>test results, I was told they didn't have the
>power to do it because the results were
>automatically reported to the IAAF by USADA.
>Maybe those who claimed to know the procedures so
>well really didn't...>>

May well have been me who said that, but I've now been told that the way the process works, it's the LAB that does the actual testing that sends the IAAF a note that says, "samples X, Y and Z were positive." The lab can't send the names because it doesn't know them; it deals only with coded samples.

I assume that USATF and USADA are notified of the positives at the same time. But I don't know which of those has the information to match the codes to names. It could be both, but it could be that USATF has to tell USADA or vice versa. I don't know who in the U.S. has the responsibility of informing the IAAF the names or under what timeframe.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Asterix » Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:42 pm

Hmmm... interesting. When I brought up the
>possibility of USATF covering up the positive
>test results, I was told they didn't have the
>power to do it because the results were
>automatically reported to the IAAF by USADA.
>Maybe those who claimed to know the procedures so
>well really didn't...

I'll admit to being one of those. My excuse is in the interpretation of the USADA release (http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/di ... .jsp?id=29) where it says:

"The athletes, USA Track and Field, the national governing body for the sport in the United States, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and the U.S. Olympic Committee (USOC) have all been notified of the positive ‘A’ sample results. "

I guess that can also be interpreted to say that the IAAF has only been notified that there were 4 positive tests and not necessarily who those 4 were.

It still makes it hard to "cover up" (although not impossible) since everyone knows how many and could keep pushing until they get names to match the numbers.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:44 pm

>Hmmm... interesting. When I brought up
>the
>possibility of USATF covering up the
>positive
>test results, I was told they didn't
>have the
>power to do it because the results
>were
>automatically reported to the IAAF by
>USADA.
>Maybe those who claimed to know the
>procedures so
>well really didn't...

I'll
>admit to being one of those. My excuse is in the
>interpretation of the USADA release
>(http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/displayArtic
>e.jsp?id=29) where it says:

"The athletes,
>USA Track and Field, the national governing body
>for the sport in the United States, the
>International Association of Athletics
>Federations (IAAF) and the U.S. Olympic Committee
>(USOC) have all been notified of the positive ‘A’
>sample results. "

I guess that can also be
>interpreted to say that the IAAF has only been
>notified that there were 4 positive tests and not
>necessarily who those 4 were.

It still makes
>it hard to "cover up" (although not impossible)
>since everyone knows how many and could keep
>pushing until they get names to match the
>numbers.>

It's also possible that the names won't come out until after the athletes in question have their hearing.

Steve S.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby gh » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:12 pm

>>It's also possible that the names won't come out until
after the athletes in question have their hearing.>>

One good source tells us this is indeed the case; maybe 2-3 weeks before USADA releases the names.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Powell » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:45 pm

I guess that can also be
>interpreted to say that the IAAF has only been
>notified that there were 4 positive tests and not
>necessarily who those 4 were.

It still makes
>it hard to "cover up" (although not impossible)
>since everyone knows how many and could keep
>pushing until they get names to match the
>numbers.

Yeah, well... The IAAF also knew there were umpteen positive tests by US athletes before the Sydney Olympics... and they kept pushing... and guess what - they never found out who the athletes were. I'm still not convinced. All it will take to cover this one up is another decision by a US court, which, based on past experience, shouldn't be too hard to get.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Asterix » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:11 am

All it will take to cover this one up
>is another decision by a US court, which, based
>on past experience, shouldn't be too hard to get.

I didn't say it was "impossible" to cover up, just pretty hard. I don't know how much one can rely on past experience to come to the conclusion US courts will aid and abet dopers. I seem to recall that in those cases it was where USATF had determined that no offence had taken place.

Have there been any examples where the US kept names hidden despite deciding that a positive test was actually a doping infraction? (For some reason, something twigs that this may have actually happened.)

What do you think the chances are with these current cases that athletes will be able to convince their hearing that they didn't really commit an offence, despite their positive tests, despite all that is currently known about this 'designer' steroid and despite the harder line being taken with regards to strict liability?

Again, not impossible, but given the above circumstances, how likely do YOU think it is there will be a 'cover-up'?
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby michael lewis » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:19 am

"how likely do YOU think it is there will be a 'cover-up'?"

Certainly far less likely than ever before, if that isn't transparent someone needs their eyes checked :)
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Powell » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:27 am

It does look less likely than in the past. But then again, if in 2000 USATF could dismiss 17 (I believe that was the number) positive tests as all being mistakes, I wouldn't bet against them at least trying to do the same thing again. And if it's less likely they'll succeed at doing it this time, it's because the names have already leaked out and the positive cases have been given extensive media coverage... which brings me back to a point I made on this board before: I'm very glad there was a leak. If the names were kept secret from the public, the chances of another cover-up would have been very good.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Asterix » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:39 am

If the names were kept
>secret from the public, the chances of another
>cover-up would have been very good.

I disagree with your labelling chances as being "very good". Obviously there would be better chances of getting away with a cover-up, but I don't see how it could approach "very good".

My memory may be hazy, but in those pre-2000 cases you cited, did USATF notify the IAAF that there were positive test results? As clarified in previous posts, the IAAF now knows exactly how many are positive in this round, even if they don't officially know names.

Previous excuses that were accepted I believe related to claims of tainted supplements. In addition to strict liability being more heavily enforced now, the whole concept of thinking you were taking something innocuous is diminished when you are talking about a "designer" steroid.

For what it's worth though, I too think names should be released prior to the hearing. In the criminal system, those charged (but yet to be tried) are made public. Isn't the US big on the concept that "Justice must not only be done, but justice must be SEEN to be done"?
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:47 am

>>Yeah, well... The IAAF also
>knew there were umpteen positive tests by US
>The IAAF also knew there were umpteen positive tests athletes before the Sydney Olympics... and they
>kept pushing... and guess what - they never found
>out who the athletes were. I'm still not
>convinced. All it will take to cover this one up
>is another decision by a US court, which, based
>on past experience, shouldn't be too hard to get.>>

Nice distortion of facts. There was no "decision by a U.S. court" here. The CAS hearing in Switzerland sided with the U.S. and said the behaviour had NOT violated IAAF rules. And the IAAF signed off on the decision. To suggest otherwise is a flat-out lie.

As for the "umpteen positive tests" that included some/many that were people who had A positives that werent' confirmed by the B. In other words, THERE WAS NO POSITIVE TEST.

I will concede that USATF hearings may have let some go free that might not have stood up to international scrutiny, however. But even these were not "covered up"; they were handled under USATF protocol and all the protections that are built in to protect the truly innocent. As the old wisdom states, "better a guilty man goes free than an innocent one be imprisoned/hanged"
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:28 am

>As for
>the "umpteen positive tests" that included
>some/many that were people who had A positives
>that werent' confirmed by the B. In other words,
>THERE WAS NO POSITIVE TEST.

I can't believe the majority of those positives were only A positives. I don't think (hope not!) that the testing procedure is so bad that there's more than a 50% failure rate!

There have been more than 17 names that have never been revealed in the recent history of US track and field, too. It's completely coincidental that they were all false positives, of course (or someone else's sample, or positives for the wrong reasons, or...). The US must hold the record for the most false positives in drug testing!
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:16 am

Why hasn't "mystery violater #4" been named, or even speculated upon (or have I missed something)? Who's the likely culprit?
U.S. T&F knows it's hanging by a thread -- one more major figure tarnished by this is the death knell. No one will care about T&F. Not even us hard-core. It will be about the chemicals, not the athletes. Sounds like it probably already is.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:46 am

"mystery violator" hasn't been named because proper procedure is being followed by those in charge of such things. Confidentiality is supposed to be maintained until the athletes have been afforded a hearing.

Who knows why whomever provided the leak on Toth, McEwen and Jacobs--assuming they're indeed the guilty parties, since neither USADA, nor USATF nor IAAF has named any of them officially--didn't do so on the fourth.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby RMc » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:40 am

>"mystery violator" hasn't been named because
>proper procedure is being followed by those in
>charge of such things. Confidentiality is
>supposed to be maintained until the athletes have
>been afforded a hearing.

Who knows why
>whomever provided the leak on Toth, McEwen and
>Jacobs--assuming they're indeed the guilty
>parties, since neither USADA, nor USATF nor IAAF
>has named any of them officially--didn't do so on
>the fourth.

The AP story this morning noted that the AP had gotten 3 of the names from "an official close to the investigation." I wonder why that official didn't know the 4th? This also seems to indicate that the leak is coming from a single source who's not privy to all of the info in the case. Is that a way to trace the leak?
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Powell » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:45 am

>I wonder why that official
>didn't know the 4th? This also seems to indicate
>that the leak is coming from a single source
>who's not privy to all of the info in the case.
>Is that a way to trace the leak?

Maybe s/he did know, but didn't want to reveal the 4th name? The rumour is that this one's a really major name (meaning significantly bigger than Jacobs, Toth et al.)...
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:11 pm

If toth is not a big name, what is? a sprinter perhaps? We can't speculate, only wait until the true names are released.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:53 am

Good piece on the delay in naming names

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics ... odds_x.htm

with a great quote from Jill Geer-

"It's very frustrating to once again see the IAAF retroactively criticizing a protocol in place for years," USATF spokeswoman Jill Geer said. "We humbly suggest that their critical efforts might best be directed to the 146 (out of 210) member federations that perform no testing whatsoever, in violation of an IAAF rule."
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Powell » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:32 am

I'll repeat what I've said before on this board: if you test, but then let everyone who tested positive walk free, it's as if you never tested at all. Or do you honestly believe every positive test by a top-class US athlete in the last few years (and there were quite a few of those) was a mistake ?
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:04 am

>I'll repeat what I've said before on this board:
>if you test, but then let everyone who tested
>positive walk free, it's as if you never tested
>at all. Or do you honestly believe every positive
>test by a top-class US athlete in the last few
>years (and there were quite a few of those) was a
>mistake ?>>

Please name some (since you say there were "quite a few") of these top-class U.S. athletes who tested positive and went free.
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Re: IAAF Says 4 Ameriicans THG Positive

Postby Guest » Sat Nov 15, 2003 12:05 pm

the guy is fiction not facts.
the reason they are not released is that is how the legal system works in the us. if you dont like it change it or get out...
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