Related substances, and contaminated supplements


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:56 am

This rule is so wide open and it is - to my opinion - extremely difficult to recognize what is related and what not to a banned drug for the majority of athletes. besides How would someone know if in his supplement he take there is a drug inside that is not listed on the label and then gets busted for it. According to the IAAF Antidoping rules athletes are responsible for what is found in their body. This isn't right.

Any comments ?
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:13 am

If I'm not mistaken you can just contact USATF and ask! Why take a chance?
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:17 am

If you don't know that it's legal, Just Say No, fool!
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby bubba » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:24 am

I had a high school teacher who gave me a pretty good piece of advice about public acts (public speaking, protesting, etc.). And when you're a world class athlete putting supplements into your body is a public act. His advice, "when in doubt... don't."

He also had another bit of advice about doing something you have doubts over, "do it, and I'll burn you."

Handy things to remember in life.
bubba
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:08 am

Well, you all sound so smart but you probably have no clue what's going on in the real world. Your teacher at school and the silly advices you all give here are useless out there.

I tell you why:

You walk into GNC and you buy a pure innocent sport supplement which as written on its label is ok to take if you are an athlete. Let's speculate that it is in purpose contaminated with traces of a prohormone which is able to give you a possitive doping result. So would it be fair to be guilty for it?

And this is only one example.
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:05 am

"Let's speculate that it is in purpose contaminated with traces of a prohormone which is able to give you a possitive doping result. So would it be fair to be guilty for it?"

Yes - and the athlete would be a dumb-ass for taking it w/o thoughly checking it out first. The "I'm a dumb-ass" excuse doesn't fly anymore.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Asterix » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:09 am

You walk into GNC and you buy a pure
>innocent sport supplement which as written on its
>label is ok to take if you are an athlete. Let's
>speculate that it is in purpose contaminated with
>traces of a prohormone which is able to give you
>a possitive doping result. So would it be fair to
>be guilty for it?

How about if you look at a broader picture, such as that not every country is the US, whose FDA does not presently regulate much the supplement industry (therefore abetting those companies who "contaminate" their supplements). Other countries have better control over those types of products. For that matter, how does a "pure innocent" supplement become contaminated? Either it's pure and innocent or it isn't.

Then there is the ignorance issue. For several years now athletes have been testing positive but blaming it on "contaminated" supplements. What level of slow-mindedness is there for a top athlete today to disregard this and continue to take supplements which have not been scientifically proven to be effective, yet apparently carry the very real chance of resulting in a positive test? If the athlete isn't removed from the sport due to explicit cheating, they should be removed for their own safety, having demonstrated a lack of proper judgement.
Asterix
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:20 am

athletes are responsible for
>what is found in their body. This isn't right.

LOL.

This is THE BEST comment of alltimes. Maybe you can tell who is responsible of athletes own body?

Maybe IAAF should ban only athletes hands which put those illegal substances in athletes mouth.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby DentyCracker » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:19 am

If I were an athlete, I would have a hard time of it, as I would not be taking any supplements. Just food baby, if that can't suffice then so be it. You never know when someone might spike things in bottles. No Gatorade. Water after workouts. That way if I test positive, I know I was framed. (Said very tongue in cheek)
DentyCracker
 
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Jamaica

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:08 am

Oh yeah ? So you suggest that every athlete who goes inside a store and buy's a Protein tube should right after go to a special lab and ask for a quality analysis ( which would cost over 300$)to see if there is inside a banned drug, right?

Think better and if you want to post something on this forum otherwise just read.
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:09 am

>>You walk into GNC and you buy a pure
>innocent sport supplement which as written on its
>label is ok to take if you are an athlete. Let's
>speculate that it is in purpose contaminated with
>traces of a prohormone which is able to give you
>a possitive doping result. So would it be fair to
>be guilty for it? >>

Anybody who is dumb enough to think that they need GNC (or any "health" store) products in order to make it as an athlete deserves whatever shit lands on their head.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:11 am

From the comments you people send it is clearly that you don't know nothing about sport. Stay silent guys please....
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Asterix » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:35 am

>Oh yeah ? So you suggest that every athlete who
>goes inside a store and buy's a Protein tube
>should right after go to a special lab and ask
>for a quality analysis ( which would cost over
>300$)to see if there is inside a banned drug,
>right?

Actually, I was suggesting that every athlete not go randomly buying a Protein tube (what the heck is that? Sounds sexual.) People get all concerned about buying organic produce, or humanely slaughtered meat, yet think nothing of ingesting unregulated chemicals that claim to do wondrous things to their bodies?

Think better and if you want to post
>something on this forum otherwise just read.

And this from the person who posted "you don't know nothing about sport".
Asterix
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Cerutty Boy » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:44 am

As a general rule, I would stay away from any food/supplement that contains ingredients that you cannot pronounce. If its made in a lab somewhere, it does not belong in your body.
Cerutty Boy
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:38 am

>Oh yeah ? So you suggest that every athlete who
>goes inside a store and buy's a Protein tube
>should right after go to a special lab and ask
>for a quality analysis ( which would cost over
>300$)to see if there is inside a banned drug,
>right?

Actually, given that a tainted supplement can cost an athletes tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars, a $300 investment seems pretty inexpensive in comparison for insurance.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:10 am

>This rule is so wide open and it is - to my
opinion - extremely difficult to recognize what
is related and what not to a banned drug for the
majority of athletes. besides How would someone
know if in his supplement he take there is a drug
inside that is not listed on the label and then
gets busted for it. According to the IAAF
Antidoping rules athletes are responsible for
what is found in their body. This isn't right.<


Of course it's right. If an athlete could avoid being found to have have committed a doping offense just by saying he didn't know what was in a pill he took, then the sport could possibly have an effective doping control program.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:11 am

You want a "protein tube"? Buy a sausage.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:12 am

Sorry. Editing glitch. Make that last sentence:

If an athlete could avoid being found to have have committed a doping offense just by saying he didn't know what as in a pill he took, then the sport could not possibly have an effective doping control program.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:08 am

I have no idea what dred is talking about, but the bottom line is that athletes are TOTALLY responsible for what goes in their bodies. An athlete MUST either get the supplement cleared by USATF or not take it. The 'doubt' advice is 100% correct. If there's any doubt WHATSOEVER, don't do it. Given the current circumstances and the amount of misinformation that's floating around, I would be hard pressed to go beyond my Flintstone vitamins. If you want to be a world-class (or just 'good') athlete, you had better be committed to being clean. Yes, the sport's standards will fall, but, oh well, let's get real now.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:16 am

The logic behind "you are an athlete and don't take any supplements because you might get caught for using some banned drug" is ridiculous.

Have you tried to train twice a day and stay on your feet only with your steak and potatoes ?

Try better...
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:24 am

Why not try to protect athletes and let the authorities (WADA or FDA or someone else) make a control system to give a safety batch after a quality control or something like that to supplement companies so athletes would not be responsible if any supplement is contaminated without their knowledge?
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Asterix » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:17 am

>The logic behind "you are an athlete and don't
>take any supplements because you might get caught
>for using some banned drug" is
>ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? Are you saying that athletes are complete idiots incapable of thinking for themselves? I tend to have a higher image of them.

Have you tried to train twice a
>day and stay on your feet only with your steak
>and potatoes ?

What supplements are the Kenyan and Ethiopian (etc.) kids who are running 27 - 28 minutes before their first paycheque taking that enable them to train two or three times a day?

Who says elite athletes not taking supplements live off of steak and potatoes? What trace minerals or vitamins are there that need to be taken in supplement form since they can not be obtained from a balanced and well-planned diet?
Asterix
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Asterix » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:22 am

>Why not try to protect athletes and let the
>authorities (WADA or FDA or someone else) make a
>control system to give a safety batch after a
>quality control or something like that to
>supplement companies so athletes would not be
>responsible if any supplement is contaminated
>without their knowledge?

Since when is it the obligation of WADA or the FDA to babysit and handhold elite athletes by systematically testing and approving each and every of the dozens or hundreds of unregulated supplements available in the US, to say nothing of the world?

Why are you suggesting athletes be completely absolved of taking any responsibility for making their own judgement calls, reading labels and not buying the hype that product XYZ will create specatcular muscle growth without using any banned substances?

If I were an elite athlete, I'd find your characterization of me as a complete moron incapable of functioning in the modern world rather insulting.
Asterix
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Alexander » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:22 am

Well if you can´t make it on "steak and potatoes" you probably lack that kind of talent - face it!
Ingesting 5000+ calories a day should contain whatever substances your body craves. If not -change your diet.

Performance and fitness by ingesting pills is skating on thin ice. IF they work better than food they´re probably out of bounds.

No labeling of "safe" supplements would work since the manufacturers (in spite of their medical appearance) are not governed or controlled in the same rigorous way medicines are.
One out of four pills in your jar or one jar out of ten can be the one with performance-enhancing traces. How can you tell?
It´s a two edged sword for the manufacturers: either their product really works (and gets banned) or it does not and nobody buys it but the "believers".

Let´s stick to talent,training, sleep and nutrition
Alexander
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby MJD » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:25 am

>Have you tried to train twice a
>day and stay on your feet only with your steak
>and potatoes ?

Well...yes. Nutritionally much worse actually.

>Try better...

Don't have to.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:45 am

Actually, having a central source provide a service of listing supplements which are deemed acceptable is an idea with some merit. Rather like the role of the US Food and Drug Administration, here in the states. Just as anyone could ingest poisonous bacteria if meat is not inspected, an athlete could ingest a troublesome substance when taking a supplement he bought at the local health food store.

To me, this is the easiest way to avoid a situation where USADA or WADA invoke the "related substance" clause.

On the subject of not taking any sort of supplements, it is a good thought, but not very likely. Elite athletes are pushing their bodies to extreme limits. Vitamins, minerals, protein, carbohydrates are just a few of the fuels they require to maintain the loads they are placing on their bodies. Supplementing your diet with additional protein is not that different from decathletes supplementing their fluid intake with intravenous fluids during hot and humid competitions.

Those athletes wishing to excel and stay clean would be best served by having a lab which approves various supplements that has USADA/WADA backing.

Either that or have the authorities provide a list of Approved supplements and drop the banned list. Anything not naturally occurring which is found in an athlete and is not on the Accepted list would be cause for investigation or punishment.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Asterix » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:59 am

Either that or have the
>authorities provide a list of Approved
>supplements and drop the banned list.

But that's problematic right there. In the US, supplements are not regulated the way medicine is. If a company makes a batch of one supplement that contains steroids, then doesn't properly clean out the pipes before making a supposedly "approved" supplement, you are going to have contamination. There is no control system (such as regulation) to ensure this doesn't happen.

The "authorities" are not, and should not be, in the business of pre-approving supplements for athletes to take.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can identify specific minerals, vitamins, or whatever else, that an elite athlete needs that can only be obtained through manufactured supplements and not a proper diet. Unless someone can, the whole supplement arguement is a red herring.
Asterix
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby MJD » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:05 am

I'd be interested to see if anyone can
>identify specific minerals, vitamins, or
>whatever else, that an elite athlete needs that
>can only be obtained through manufactured
>supplements and not a proper diet. Unless
>someone can, the whole supplement arguement is a
>red herring.

One of the defences of the people defending the modafinil positives is that the stuff really doesn't do anything-they just think it does. A placebo so to speak.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:24 am

Here's my 1 cent (with the option to add 1 more in the future if needed):

It's interesting reading these posts by people at various levels in the sport and with diverse interests.

I personally have many good friends (some of who are involved in this present scandal) and have witnessed many of the biggest compeitions (Worlds and Olympics) first hand. Additionally, I've been fortunate to be around for some time in Europe and rub shoulders with some of the biggest stars in this sport.


Not like if that is supposed to convince you, but this I do know from being around that environment for nearly a decade....many of the top people who get themselves involved in this stuff sadly find themselves there because they are looking to 'improve' in a material way due to the use of supplements. Many may 'feel' that they are trying to 'even out the playing field'- but it doesn't get any more even if you yourself are looking to annihilate and obliterate the fields!

Plus, I am convinced, that you as an individual knows when things have substantially altered their performance. Our sport has the 'luxury' of having concrete measurements that we can look at and does not suffer from the subjectivity of other sports like Gymnastics or figure skating. An athlete takes substance A and they improve by X. They take it again, and they are back there.

Over all my time around that environment (at the top of the sport), I am persuaded that people who are trying to use supplements to 'transform' their careers KNOW the deal! I believe that you can at least run fast and under 10 sec. for example in a men's 100m w/o drugs. HOWEVER, you may not be able to do it as often as we saw in times past (late 90s).

yes, it's true that come companies lack the best quality control over their supplements (I've been told that people should use GNC only to buy multivitamins), but I have a had time dealing with such exotic and out of the way things such as latest stimulants, etc.

But, I've learned not to be too bothered by the cheaters. It's sad and I think when caught they should be justly punished (even sued if they have made a substantial living off of fraud). But accountants do it, etc. I have little personal sympathy for these people (even though some are my close friends) as far as the sport goes, because they are stealing other peoples' money and are the source of a great level depression, etc. amongst others who are unfairly being beaten.

Ok, so that was about 4 cents worth!

Once more, feel free to tear it apart as suits your fancy :)
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:29 am

sorry for the typos, but I'm was multitasking and didn't spell check...hope ya'll understood the point!
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Dred » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:38 am

MDJ you're right, so is trakluva. Asterix... what can I say about you ? Have you thought about going meet Obelix and hunt some Romans ?
Dred
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby MJD » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:42 am

>MDJ you're right, so is trakluva. Asterix... what
>can I say about you ? Have you thought about
>going meet Obelix and hunt some Romans ?

Except Dred, I am making Asterix's argument.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:52 am

Dred - come back to the lab - I'm not done with you yet - you shouldn't be out among humans - they won't understand you like I do - come home - let me finish what we started.
Guest
 

Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

Postby Asterix » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:39 am

> Asterix... what
>can I say about you ?

Well, you could start by addressing some of the questions I feel are valid against your arguement. Specifically "What trace minerals or vitamins are there that need to be taken in supplement form since they can not be obtained from a balanced and well-planned diet?"

Have you thought about
>going meet Obelix and hunt some Romans ?

Don't need Obelix if I've got access to Getafix.
Asterix
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest