BALCO Legacy


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

BALCO Legacy

Postby bad hammy » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:21 am

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... S6PI77.DTL

Long article from the SF Chron's BALCO reporters discussing the legacy of the BALCO investigation.

Mark Fainaru-Wada & Lance Williams wrote:Major-league baseball's drug cheats are the subject of an investigation and face tougher penalties and public exposure when they are caught using steroids.

Congress has ratcheted up prison sentences for convicted steroid dealers, and federal drug agents are showing a new willingness to cooperate with sports officials in tracking down athletes who use banned drugs.

And in virtually every high school in the country, young athletes are taught about the health risks associated with the use of performance-enhancing drugs.

According to experts, those are some of the lasting impacts of the BALCO steroids scandal, the ongoing federal investigation that revealed the use of banned performance-enhancing drugs by some of the greatest athletes of the era.
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Postby tafnut » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:30 am

The legacy for T&F has been devastating in terms of the general public's regard of the sport. They can forgive their football players, SOME baseball players, but ZERO track athletes. We're in the toilet right now, precisely because of BALCO, regardless of how much PEDs have been in our sport for the last 40+ years.
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Postby tandfman » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:08 am

tafnut wrote:The legacy for T&F has been devastating in terms of the general public's regard of the sport. They can forgive their football players, SOME baseball players, but ZERO track athletes. We're in the toilet right now, precisely because of BALCO, regardless of how much PEDs have been in our sport for the last 40+ years.

We had image problems relating to doping long before BALCO. And actually, I think we had done a very good job last year of getting BALCO behind us and moving to establish a better public view of the situation. And then came Gatlin who, as far as I know, had nothing to do with BALCO.

No doubt about it, BALCO is an easy target and an easy subject to focus on. But in terms of the general public's regard of the sport, BALCO was not the beginning of our challenges and probably won't be the end either.
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Postby gh » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:23 pm

tandfman wrote:.... And actually, I think we had done a very good job last year of getting BALCO behind us and moving to establish a better public view of the situation. And then came Gatlin who, as far as I know, had nothing to do with BALCO. ....


I think that's some wishful thinking. My thinking may be somewhat colored because I live in BALCO country and up until a month or so ago if you went to the home page of the San Francisco Chronicle it still fetured a "BALCO Chronicles" link for all the world to see.

That aside, I'd say the general public greatly associates Gatlin w/ BALCO for the simple reason of Graham's involvement with it. And just as damning for track was the Jones incident. Even though her positive/negative this summer had nothing to do w/ BALCO, I think virtually every story on her (and they were legion) rehashed Conte, C.J., Monty, etc., etc. We're still stuck needing hip waders in this swamp.
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Postby Coureur » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:52 pm

BALCO has just about sunk my interest in track and field. Not because prior to BALCO I was deluded enough to think that there hadn't been some level of dope in the sport since at least the the 1950s. No, the reason BALCO broke my heart was because it pretty much proved that all the cruel accusations about US track made by cynical Europeans and Dick Pound were TRUE.

I took the athletes and USATF officials at their word. For decades I defended US track athletes as largely clean except for a few isolated bad apples that the testing would soon root out. I dismissed European accusations of widespread, systematic, and organized cheating in the US as so many sour grapes ---> jaded people judging us by their own East German dope machine standards. Not any more. Dick Pound and the Europeans were right.

I was a big booster of the sport. I helped run and was a major contributor to discussions on the old t-and-f e-mail list. I went to nearly every World Champs and US Olympic Trials. Not any more. Dick Pound and the Europeans were right.

I still go to the occasional high school meet - hoping that at least at THAT level the majority of the athletes might still be clean. I still go to Footlocker each year, but who knows about kids at that level? I used to eagerly open my T&FNews issue each month and start reading right there while standing at the mail box. Not any more. Now at least half of them are stacked in one corner with the plastic wrappers still on. Because Dick Pound and the Europeans were right.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:38 am

My sympathies Coureur. I still watch because of an old saying." Dont throw the baby out with the bath water." And if we do we'd have to stop watching a whole lot more sports than just track.
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Postby Mighty Favog » Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:02 am

If The Onion reflects general public opinion, then yesterday's headline reflects on our conversation:

"Barry Bonds Took Steroids, Reports Everyone Who Has Ever Watched Baseball"


To most people, BALCO equals Barry Bonds, period. Track's problems are much larger than BALCO or even doping in general. The general public associates track with steroids because that's all they know about it. Not so with other sports, even in satire; the above headline was below-the-fold behind "Cardinals Apologize For Winning World Series".
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Postby tandfman » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:16 am

SQUACKEE wrote:My sympathies Coureur. I still watch because of an old saying." Dont throw the baby out with the bath water." And if we do we'd have to stop watching a whole lot more sports than just track.

You got it, SQUACKEE!

I continue to watch track because I love the sport and because I know that there are tough anti-doping rules in place, and the authorities are trying to enforce those rules. I've actually stopped watching sports (including all of the US professional sports) that have not adopted the World Anti-Doping Code and do not have the same kind of testing rules and penalties that track and field does.
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Postby Coureur » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:36 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:My sympathies Coureur. I still watch because of an old saying." Dont throw the baby out with the bath water." And if we do we'd have to stop watching a whole lot more sports than just track.


Show me how to separate the baby from the bath water and we may be able to get somewhere. How do we distinguish the oh-so-sincere denials of the guilty liars from those of the innocent? They all sound the same to me. I used to think they all sounded innocent; now they all sound guilty.

And is there a baby still in there, or is it all just dirty water? Is there ANY international class US track athlete that we know with at least 98% certainty is clean? Name the athlete and tell me how we convincingly know s/he is is clean, and I'll be an enthusiastic fan once again - of that one athlete.

(And I don't follow baseball much any more either.)
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Postby gh » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:49 pm

Many years ago I told somebody I just made the assumption that everybody in the sport was dirty. I didn't say I believed they were (I didn't then, don't now), I just made that assumption. It made the sport a bit less palatable, although not so much that I wanted to walk away from it, but what "positive" it did do was pretty much inure me to most of the heartbreak every time somebody turned up positive. (Although I'm still scratching my head at Gatlin.)
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Postby Coureur » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:35 pm

gh wrote:Many years ago I told somebody I just made the assumption that everybody in the sport was dirty. I didn't say I believed they were (I didn't then, don't now), I just made that assumption.....


Great. We have a sport where it somehow helps to assume that every athlete is a cheater.
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Postby lonewolf » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:27 pm

Archie Bunker once proposed that the solution to the rash of plane hi-jackings was to issue a firearm to every passenger..maybe the only sure-fire way to level the playing field is to issue PEDs to every athlete who aspires to be world class..
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Postby EPelle » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:04 am

gh wrote:...(Although I'm still scratching my head at Gatlin.)

I have a difficult time understanding why no one connects the dots between Conte:s recovered USADA letter concerning Gatlin and Gatlin:s positive test three years later for the same drug - testosterone - that Conte stated Gatlin had received by Trevor Graham through Andrew Tynes.

I:m not going to go into a super long dissertation on the state of affairs as they concern BALCO, because I have done so ad infinitum for the past two years. This one will have a high word count, but is only a small outline of how things really stack up in the BALCO world.

Whereas folks stated this was all old news, and it should have been hung up with the Conte conviction, muddy shoes continue leaving deep stains on the fabric of the sport.

It was stated above that Marion Jones positive-negative had nothing to do with BALCO. How is this stated with 100% conviction when Patrick Arnold stated the sprinters had sneaky ways of getting drugs from him? Make no connection here between Jones and Arnold - this is simply a question posed to provide an alternative to the statement that Jones steered clear of any personal BALCO entanglement.

A recurring question to which no one has been able to offer a definitive answer is:

Can a liar tell the truth?

There are two types of liars in the BALCO affair: liars who have cheated, broken rules/laws and been caught, and court-proven testimony liars.

So far, Tim Montgomery, Chryste Gaines, Kelli White, Victor Conte, CJ Hunter and Angel Heredia have been proven to be liars - no mistake about it. However, none of them have been court-proven liars when it comes to their testimonies in the BALCO case. Their witness testimony has never come back to harm them, personally.

Jones team banked a great deal of her innocence on Tim Montgomery:s testimony - something they maintained supported what Graham had stated, namely that Jones was innocent.

Trevor Graham has been indicted for lying to the court. He:s not convicted, merely suspected. What will a conviction do to the nature of the Jones case? If they say that Graham:s testimony keeps her from the law:s tight grip, but Graham:s testimony later is proven to have been false, does that weaken her lawyers strategy of positioning themselves behind Graham in the first place?

Trevor Graham:s trial has the potential of being the first open-court BALCO testimony which can connect dots between supplier-receiver-user should he not cop a plea and opt out of testifying.

CAS could not force Montgomery:s hand, and they could not coerce Gaines to testify, either. Had either one gone on record to testify on their own behalves (sp?), questions would have immediately arisen about the purported Gaines involvement with Jones, whereby Gaines is stated to have demanded a cut from Conte if Jones - a direct competitor - received the same drugs as Gaines. Montgomery told the Grand Jury this information, but was not required to speak about the matter in an open court. He and Gaines took their punishments laying down. It is not standard protocol for athletes to avoid the CAS witness stand, despite what some here have stated. This is the one chance ahtletes have available to speak freely and directly to a panel considering their fate.

Heredia, a non-proven court-testimony liar will be called to the United States v Trevor Graham trial to testify for the prosecuting attorney.

When his testimony comes to pass, his having stated he made drugs schemes for Marion Jones and others will come back into the picture, and heavily under fire. That testimony will be refuted and denied by Graham:s attorney team, and it will be up to a jury to determine whether or not Graham is guilty.

If Graham is proven guilty, more weight can be garnered for a United States v. Marion Jones case in addition to a USADA v Marion Jones case.

Many of you may wonder why the Feds have not acted on information it received three years back, and unfortunately believe that Graham:s case will simply be more of the he-said, she-said merry-go-round upon which the news reports have been spinning since Conte went on air on "20/20".

As I stated earlier this winter, there are bigger fish to fry. Tammy Thomas and Trevor Graham may be the first to come out in the open with who did what, when, where and how. We already know why.

Why do I continue to bring up this three-year-old information about Conte, Montgomery and Gaines, and don:t ever seem to give it a rest? The reason is two-fold:

  1. To prepare you for the hurricane gathering strength on the other side of the waters - one which has been slowly twirling along a path due west until its day of appointment.
  2. To keep you informed, involved and in touch with a story that didn:t end when teams of scholars had hoped it would - or when one athlete said that his/her test "proved that I have never taken a drug".
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Postby gh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:50 am

EPelle wrote:......
I have a difficult time understanding why no one connects the dots between Conte:s recovered USADA letter concerning Gatlin and Gatlin:s positive test three years later for the same drug - testosterone - that Conte stated Gatlin had received by Trevor Graham through Andrew Tynes........


Am i missing something here? My oft-addled brain tells me that Gatlin had a positive test for Ritalin (a prescription he was legally using), and that was 5 years ago. What positive testosterone test three years ago?
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Postby EPelle » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:01 am

No one mentioned Gatlin failing a test three years ago. Gatlin is said to have been using testosterone as early as three years ago.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... K86KP1.DTL

And Gatlin's name is on one of the thousands of pages of documents that are part of the BALCO case.

In June 2003, BALCO owner Victor Conte drafted a letter to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency and the international governing body for track and field detailing allegations of how Graham was doping his athletes with "oral testosterone undeconate," according to a copy of the letter obtained by The Chronicle.

In the letter, Conte writes, "Oral testosterone undeconate will clear the body and be undetectable in urine in less than a week after discontinuing use." At the end of the letter, Conte identified four athletes he said were using the drugs. One of those was Gatlin. Ultimately, Conte never sent the correspondence.

Told about Gatlin being named in the Conte letter, Myler had no comment.
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Postby tafnut » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:04 am

It's too bad that VC has such huge credibility problems. If anyone could ever sift through his statements for the real unvarnished truth, we could make a great deal of progress in the PEDs War.
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Postby tandfman » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:08 am

EPelle wrote:I have a difficult time understanding why no one connects the dots between Conte:s recovered USADA letter concerning Gatlin and Gatlin:s positive test three years later for the same drug - testosterone - that Conte stated Gatlin had received by Trevor Graham through Andrew Tynes.

EPelle wrote:No one mentioned Gatlin failing a test three years ago.

You did. Or are you saying that there's a difference between a "positive test" and "failing a test"? If so, you'll have to explain the difference.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:18 am

I seem to be the only one here who connects the following together:

Gatlin was busted for the same drug Conte had written about three years earlier. Why would Conte lie - or, better yet, pretend he knew what was going on?

That small little question still needs to be answered: Can a liar tell the truth?

Apparently so, because ESPN the Magasine was never sued by Marion Jones following Conte:s revelation there that he provided her drugs, watched her take them, and developed further the information he provided on "20/20". Her counsel did absolutely NOTHING about that story. No retraction, no apology, nothing but look the other direction.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:20 am

tandfman wrote:[You did. Or are you saying that there's a difference between a "positive test" and "failing a test"? If so, you'll have to explain the difference.


Really -- this is what I wrote, I:ll repeat it word for word:

I have a difficult time understanding why no one connects the dots between Conte:s recovered USADA letter concerning Gatlin and Gatlin:s positive test three years later for the same drug - testosterone - that Conte stated Gatlin had received by Trevor Graham through Andrew Tynes.
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Postby gh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:53 am

EPelle wrote:I seem to be the only one here who connects the following together:......


Maybe you're just the only one that's obsessing on the subject.
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Postby tafnut » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:11 pm

EPelle wrote:Why would Conte lie


Good job - you got that in just under the wire for a Tafny!!!
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Postby EPelle » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:37 pm

gh wrote:
EPelle wrote:I seem to be the only one here who connects the following together:......


Maybe you're just the only one that's obsessing on the subject.


Well, I:ll say nothing more. Keep your head in the sand if you:d like. I:m done trying to be the bearer of any news here.
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Postby tandfman » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:03 pm

EPelle wrote:
tandfman wrote:[You did. Or are you saying that there's a difference between a "positive test" and "failing a test"? If so, you'll have to explain the difference.

Really -- this is what I wrote, I:ll repeat it word for word:

I have a difficult time understanding why no one connects the dots between Conte:s recovered USADA letter concerning Gatlin and Gatlin:s positive test three years later for the same drug - testosterone - that Conte stated Gatlin had received by Trevor Graham through Andrew Tynes.

OK, now I understand what you were saying. I misread it the frst time. Apologies.
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Postby tafnut » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:08 pm

EPelle wrote:Well, I:ll say nothing more. Keep your head in the sand if you:d like. I:m done trying to be the bearer of any news here.


Ixnay on atthay!!! If we're not discussing this kind of stuff, who is? If you cross a line, it'll get deleted and then we know where that line is. If not, keep trying. I don't delude myself into thinking we're doing anything except 'thinking' about it. but getting rid of PEDs is the #1 priority of T&F (IMO).
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Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:29 pm

EPelle, dont leave me here alone with these track and field nuts! I appreciate your tenacity for something you have a passion for. And you have more knowledge on the subject than anyone here. Some people dont want to hear what they feel is bad news. As long as its real there can be nothin more beautiful.

As my hip hop brothers would say, I like they way you roll brother. Keep it real dog.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:38 pm

I:ll keep it low-profile tafnut and Squackee -- was just trying to save the fans the burdon which we will all feel once things get ugly during the trial. There has been a long calm before the storm.
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Postby donley2 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:48 pm

EPelle wrote:I:ll keep it low-profile tafnut and Squackee -- was just trying to save the fans the burdon which we will all feel once things get ugly during the trial. There has been a long calm before the storm.


Don't let GH beat you down Epelle, you are not the ONLY one that connected those dots. I personally lost interest in cheering for any of Grahams athletes around three years ago. I find GH's attitude towards the whole PED thing more than a little puzzling.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:33 pm

Coureur wrote:
gh wrote:Many years ago I told somebody I just made the assumption that everybody in the sport was dirty. I didn't say I believed they were (I didn't then, don't now), I just made that assumption.....


Great. We have a sport where it somehow helps to assume that every athlete is a cheater.

Not just T&F. Any sport where there is any significant money or other compensation to be made . . .
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Postby gh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:01 pm

donley2 wrote:..... I find GH's attitude towards the whole PED thing more than a little puzzling.


gh's attitude towards how the PED thing should be handled on this Board is pretty simple. This site was created (as was T&FN itself) as a place where fans of the sport could get together and celebrate the greatest sport ever to grace the planet.

If there are negative developments to be discussed, they should by all means be discussed. Wouldnt' have it any other way. But when there is nothing happening on that front and a small group of zealots decided to hijack the Board with nonstop drug talk, I draw the line. It's doing nothing to clean up the sport and only serves to further depress fans who are already becoming marginalized. We need things to build the sport, not tear it down.

To hastily craft an analogy that's perhaps too simplistic, imagine that this were a site that was dedicated to tourism on the idyllic island of St. Ralph. People loved to visit there because of the verdant highlands, the sandy beaches, the clear water and the friendly inhabitants. But into every paradise a little evil creeps. Had a murder or two last year, robbery was up, too much pickpocketing.

And while these things touched only 0.0001% of anybody who ever visited the island, postings on the official island website were 50% dedicated to rehashing last year's murder. Makes St. Ralph website a place that drives people away, and keeps people from wanting to go to St. Ralph.

Sorry if that protect-the-sport attitude is so puzzling. I you want to wallow in the muck 24/7 feel free to do so. But don't expect me to join you. There are still too many wonderful poeople/things in the sport to celebrate and I refuse to let you drag me down to your level.
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Postby Speedbuff » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:46 am

tafnut,

What exactly are the credibility problems that VC has? He seems to have been congruent with what he has said all along. Please explain.
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Postby Speedbuff » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:23 am

tafnut,

I don't completely agree with your assertion that track and field "is in the toliet precisely because of BALCO." Is it possible that BALCO is not the cause of our sport's problems, but represents more of a window looking into a history of rampant drug use in track and field? Is it not also possible that instead of BALCO being a cause, it is actually more of a symptom of a much more widespread disease that has stricken not only track and field, but all sports? The issue of doping needs to be brought under control at some point. I'm of the opinion that it may be a mistake for us to collectively take the position that BALCO is solely responsible for the state of track and field. Doping in sports is certainly about more than the athletes associated with BALCO.
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Postby EPelle » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:14 am

Wow, gh.

Excuse me, I have some news about performance-enhancing drugs. May I borrow your internet site because I need to make a point that there are lies, cover-ups and misleading statements made by some athletes and coaches - information which, if left closed and dust-covered, will do more harm than good to your readers?

I have public-use information, gh, about athletes and coaches who, themselves, have bankrupted fans of their ability to fully celebrate the harmony between pure hard work, willpower, determination and the resulting excellence which ensues from that accord. Shall I leave it up to fate to bind together the past with the future?

These people owe back more than they have been willing to pay, and discussions about their misdeeds - many of which have gone unpunished - keep bringing you down people:s necks - clutching and gripping as hard as you think you can flex. If posters are made aware of these misdeeds, and act upon them, they can be better equipped to enjoy the sport. If that mechanism of communication is silenced - if that channel of influence is broken - fans will lose more than they will gain.

There are a few rotten apples in the basket. Instead of chucking them out and looking through the bunch for better ones, I:m telling folks how to avoid believing certain apples are good to eat so that they won:t bite into them and taste a deep, sour and utterly bitter fruit.

gh wrote:If there are negative developments to be discussed, they should by all means be discussed. Wouldnt' have it any other way. But when there is nothing happening on that front and a small group of zealots decided to hijack the Board with nonstop drug talk, I draw the line. It's doing nothing to clean up the sport and only serves to further depress fans who are already becoming marginalized. We need things to build the sport, not tear it down.


For some reason, gh, you want to be mysterious about the state of affairs as they relate to athletics. Your tight grip on doping talk is what is turning people blue, and nobody thinks you:re doing it just because you:re such a nice guy who:s trying to keep fans focussed on the positives in the sport. So, instead of pretending as though someone is hijacking your board (I:ve spent more time discussing what is great about this sport, its fans, its participants, and the the athletes than anything else), let people here on the true reason why you feel like shutting them out from this topic.

This little big word BALCO doesn:t seem to ever die out or go away. There are steps being taken on this front every single week, and news items which are first-cousins with athletics. A small army is marching toward certain individuals for their involvement with that company, and I:m merely a messenger who sees the footprints, hears the heavy wheels turning, and had never had his head down in the sand.

You don:t have to wallow in the muck, because there are few dirty waters outside your front door, and there is no leak in your roof. There are so many positives being discussed about the wheels which turn this sport forward into a greatly anticipated future full of promise, hope and excellent human potential.

I don:t work at a convenience store, so you must be talking about someone else who is open 24/7 for drugs discussion. As far as having dialogue about drugs with respect to BALCO, this discussion is right where it belongs - in a BALCO thread not initiated by a zealot - or provoker, if you will.

I:ve used the word BALCO in 107 posts of which the great majority involved drugs topics - many of which arose from Michael Johnson stating it would be better if Marion Jones quietly went away. I have posted information on Marion Jones a total of 187 times. These 294 posts represent a grand total of 0,026% of my total contribution to this place. I:ve used the word "doping" in 145 posts between those two aforementioned topics.

(oops - was more chatty than I thought - my math was off -- now up to a whopping 0,026%).
Last edited by EPelle on Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tafnut » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:39 am

gh wrote:And while these things touched only 0.0001% of anybody who ever visited the island


gh, I agree with most all of what you say in this post (lord knows I am the rose-colored glasses-wearing naive Pollyanna of the board), with the vital exception of the above excerpt. We are ALL - 100% - affected by the PEDs issue. There may be only a few murders on the island, but the killer is still at large and could strike again at any moment.

I totally agree that we should should accentuate the positive and downplay (since we can't eliminate) the negative. Perhaps the obvious solution is to leave the Dope Board open and not allow any PED-related posts on CE. That way those posters who don't want to deal with it can leave that board alone (wishful thinking - some of my 'worst' posts were over there defending Marion . . . sigh).

Anyway, it's almost a new year and let's hope for the best and I will try mightily to leave my reservations behind and 'celebrate the best sport on the planet.'

P.S. The best place to start on VC's credibility is the 20/20 piece he did. It's filled with problematic statements, including his famous, "I want to be the guy who cleans up the sport."
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Postby EPelle » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:24 am

tafnut - Conte sat atop a power trip hill all alone - information being his biggest weapon.
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Postby tafnut » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:45 am

EPelle wrote:tafnut - Conte sat atop a power trip hill all alone - information being his biggest weapon.


I agree, and he twisted the truth to benefit himself, first and foremost.
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Postby dcunited » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:43 pm

Noone need make apologies for opinion made on a public forum, including drug comments in a Balco thread, unless I'm missing something ...
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Postby figo » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:35 pm

figo deleted his own post - went up twice
Last edited by figo on Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby figo » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:37 pm

i'm with epeele

i speculate...
gh is trying to run a magazine and has his personal portfolio to consider.
i suspect gh has an abundance of insider information gained through trusted relationships formed over many years in the sport, some of which is not published here or maybe anywhere...
if the information presented on the track and field forum gets too hot that might potentially compromise gh and his relations in the track world?
maybe that's why gh has this over-reaction with drug issues here.

you can't avoid politics no matter what.

maybe gh's saddam iron type grip is why this forum is a distance second to the poorly presented but highly used letsrun site.....actually track and field news is in danger of becoming an internet non-entity given that poor quality competition is beating them up...

could it be gh censorship???
hey, that's not a rock and roll, metallica attitude now is it.
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Postby Speedbuff » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:44 pm

tafnut,

How did VC "twist the truth to benefit himself"? The truth is the truth. VC may know more about the truth than he has revealed publically, but much of what he stated on 20/20 in 2004 has turned out to be correct. I'm of the opinion that the BALCO story is only at half time and it's a bit early to predict how many more athletes will end up being indicted in the case. How many here on this board would have predicted that the female cyclist would be indicted for perjury more than three years after the case started? Who knows if the more than 100 names of MLB players who tested positive in 2003 will be identified before it's all over. tafnut, BALCO may just be a never ending story.
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Postby tafnut » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:01 am

Up until the 20/20 airing, he had vehemently denied supplied giving drugs to athletes - on the 20/20 show he most certainly DID say he supplied drugs to athletes. You tell me; does that sound like a guy who has a problem lying?
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