Johnson: It Would Be Best if Jones Just Went Away...


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:30 am

For those who would like to review the affidavit of Special Agent Jeff Novitsky in support of request for BALCO search warrants - which has nothing to do with whether Michael Johnson is correct in stating that Marion Jones should retire and find a patch of green grass somewhere:

http://sfgate.com/chronicle/acrobat/200 ... ffidvt.pdf
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:03 am

why are you wasting our time on a 2.5y ole document ?

didn't you get gh's order of "no more dope talk unless new news " ?

are you ignorant or just plain stupid ?
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:10 am

Why? That document - along with others - speaks volumns for the person who hasn:t been in the know, and has excluded suspects based on a lack of "evidence".

One of those suspected persons has been asked, politely, to go away.

eldrick, you only make me smile. I have spoken of defendants in court cases, not dopers.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:15 am

& where are those defendants ( or lawyers on their behalf ) full,verbatim grand jury or cas testimony in that link ???
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:16 am

Search, eldrick. I:ve been here long enough for people to trust that I am not making things up. If the CAS accounts are inaccurate, a correction would have occured, and an ammended, more accurate version would be on-line.
Last edited by EPelle on Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:18 am

save us time wading thru 50+ pages & show it
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:26 am

http://sfgate.com/chronicle/acrobat/200 ... ffidvt.pdf
Probable Cause to Search BALCO Laboratories, Victor Conte:s house, his personal mailboxes, his computers.

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/pdf/Gaines.PDF
Chryste Gaines

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/pdf/Montgomery.PDF
Tim Montgomery

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 7B7Q91.DTL
Montgomery:s admission

http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/tes ... it_id=4276
Kelli White:s Full Senate Committe Hearing, S. 529/U.S. Anti-Doping Agency


Full arsenal of "evidences"? Not in the least. These don:t even begin to scratch the surface.

USADA v Collins:

In USADA v. Michelle Collins, AAA No. 30 190 00658 04 (Dec. 10, 2004), the arbitration panel found that “USADA has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that sprinter Michelle Collins was guilty of doping through the use of prohibited substances and techniques for more than a year,” although she had not tested positive for any banned substances. IAAF rules state that doping occurs when “an athlete uses or takes advantage of a prohibited technique,” or “admits having used or taken advantage of a prohibited substance or a prohibited technique.” The panel relied on e-mail messages seized as a part of the BALCO investigation in which Collins admitted to using THG and a cream to mask its usage along with prior blood and urine tests from IOC-accredited labs confirming her admitted usage and proving a pattern of doping. Collins refused to testify at the hearing or provide any exculpatory explanation of her statements and other documents evidencing her guilt. She also did not present any expert testimony or other evidence to provide an alternative explanation for the incriminating test results.

You enjoy laughing, no eldrick? Collins attorneys biggest defense was that she had passed every drugs test administered to her, this despite the fact that she was clearly taking a drug which was thought to be undetectable.

http://law.marquette.edu/cgi-bin/site.p ... leID=29946
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:55 am

Back on topic:

Why did not Michael Johnson simply send Marion Jones an e-mail?
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:35 am

EPelle wrote:
http://sfgate.com/chronicle/acrobat/2004/02/13/affidvt.pdf
Probable Cause to Search BALCO Laboratories, Victor Conte:s house, his personal mailboxes, his computers.


discussed above

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/pdf/Gaines.PDF
Chryste Gaines


kangaroo court :

52. What counsel for Ms. Gaines did not do was in any way undermine Ms. White’s
evidence regarding her conversations with Ms. Gaines in 2002 and 2003. The evidence of
those conversations, most especially the conversation during which Ms. Gaines admitted her
use of the Clear, which the Panel considers to be clear and compelling, thus stands
uncontroverted. It is also, as indicated above, sufficient in and of itself to find Respondent
guilty of doping.


to demolish uncorroborated testimony doesn't require perry mason

no matter what simple statements counsel may have made along lines of " kelli, where's your proof ?", cas had their judgement already made

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/pdf/Montgomery.PDF
Tim Montgomery


back to same ole 100% belief in kellie's unsupported testimony

the laughable thing is :

51. Of course, as noted by USADA's counsel during closing argument: "It would be a real
different issue if Tim Montgomery took the stand and said ‘no, no, when I said "it" I meant something else’." It might indeed have affected the Panel's appreciation of Ms. White's
evidence had Respondent chosen to provide the Panel with a different explanation of their
March 2001 conversation or had he denied that the conversation took place as described by the
witness. The fact remains that he did not.


no mention of the fact that his counsel must have stated the one sentence denial on his behalf

i have never read anything so crass : if tim personally had said instead of his counsel :

‘no, no, when I said "it" I meant something else’

cas wouda given consideration to the reliability of kellie's testimony !



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/24/MNG547B7Q91.DTL
Montgomery:s admission


& how reliable is that report ?

tim's attorney, arguedes states there :

Contacted Wednesday, Arguedas declined to discuss what Montgomery had told the grand jury.

"No one can legally or legitimately have Tim's grand jury testimony, and if they think they have it, I would like to see it," she said. "Otherwise, there's no way I can respond to these blind allegations, and I'm not going to comment on it."


did usada/cas have access to full grand jury testimony ?

from cas, on usada's evidence against tim :

(7) Reports in the San Francisco Chronicle supposedly based on secret grand jury
testimony by Mr. Montgomery in which he admits to using various prohibited
substances.


usada had no grand jury testimony to bring to cas : just the same sfgate article off the web as everyone else had !

so usada had no official transcript of tim's confession - just a newspaper article !!!

so, all they had was kellie's tesimony to convict on - which they wouda considered suspect if tim rather than counsel had made a 1 sentence denial

pathetic

USADA v Collins:

In USADA v. Michelle Collins, ...


so ?

convicted by e-mails she sent

pity usada coudn't find anything as concrete on tim or chryste rather than just rely on kellie
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Postby donley2 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:39 am

Eldrick, when you taking that break from the boards?
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:40 am

USADA got its Grand Jury testimony from the US Senate.

During a hearing hearing on 2004-February-27, the U.S. government agreed, as part of its discovery obligations, to provide the defense counsel a copy of the transcripts of grand jury testimony from various athletes, with both the defense counsel and the government agreeing on the record, that the production of the transcripts would be subject to a stipulated protective order. The United States Senate provided USADA unprotected parts of those sworn depositions after a committee led by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., voted to subpoena Justice Department documents connected to the steroid-distribution.

You said you had this all down pat.

Arguedas jumped ship when Montgomery went straight for CAS, rather than through the normal channels of arbitration in the USA.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:44 am

so now please explain why usada didn't show these transcripts to cas, but cited only the sfgate web article ?

something wrong with the full aspect of tim's grand jury "confession" ?
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:54 am

Why do you assume they didn:t? They stated evidence collected in the BALCO case already hung up Montgomery. Being fair, they took into account all of the evidences - including White:s. Recall, they had considered seven types of evidences against Montgomery, and had deeply considered whether or not to use his confession as a basis for banishment, each of the seven as individual evidences to reach that conclusion, or to look at all of the evidences as a whole and determine, without a reasonable doubt, that he was guilty.

White chose to speak, because she was provided a plea bargain which stipulated any constructive cooperation with authorities in this case would reduce her ban from lifetime to two years. That constructive enablement was to be fool-proof - able to withstand the scrutiny of the courts, and not based on hearsay.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:02 am

err...

then why does 7 say from : "san fransisco chronicle" & NOT from " federal grand jury records released to usada" ?

& as cas settled in the end they settled for kellie's testimony being convictive - what does that tell you of the regard the other 6 pieces of evidence were held in ?

constructive enablement was to be fool-proof - able to withstand the scrutiny of the courts


nonsense

where were her documentary/audio/visual back-up evidence that made her testimony against tim "foolproof" ?
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Postby Simonkelly » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:12 am

Everyone is going too far into this.
Michael Johnson gave his opinion whether you agree or not is not the issue.
The fact of the matter is her image has been tarnished beyond repair no doubt. Should she retire - I think so, will she retire soon - I also think so. But she will drag it through for as long as possible. I'm not a Marion Jones hater never was. I think it's really unfortunate that the Sport continues to get bombarded by Drug accusations regarding almost every successful Athlete.
For the health of the Sport she should retire. Just my opinion. I agree with Michael, I generally do.

Regarding the fact others have mentioned could she better her PR's - that doesn't matter. Times are not the be all & end all of the Sport. The be all & end all is the competition. The Gold medals, championships.

Allen Johnson just ran .04 away from his PR but more importantly was he won the World Cup race. If he came last and ran 12.70 would he be happy - not sure.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:14 am

Ouch, eldrick: you:ve not read the pdf file yet, no?

As noted, Mr. Montgomery has never had a single drug test found to be a positive doping violation, but USADA’s charges are based, in part, on all of the blood and urine tests at IOC-accredited and non-IOC-accredited laboratories that he has had in recent years. USADA also relies, among other things, on documents seized by the U.S. government from BALCO that have been provided to USADA; statements made by BALCO officials; and other documents.


Why they chose to list supposedly based on secret grand jury testimony by Mr. Montgomery in which he admits to using various prohibited substances is beyond me - espcecially considering they had the unsealed USADA copy of record. USADA, itself, attempted to prove the the doping offence in the absence of any analytical adverse finding. USADA, based on the information it received in the unprotected portion of Montgomery:s testimony, sent him the "Charging Letter".

When you looked at the below statement earlier, where you attributing his statements to have been made to White, or under Grand Jury testimony?

As will be seen, the Panel's determination of the case against Mr. Montgomery turns on certain statements made by the Respondent himself which make it unnecessary for the Panel to determine whether the mass of other evidence adduced by USADA and derived in large measure from the BALCO documents, is also conclusive of the doping charges brought against him.
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Postby gh » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:42 am

Simonkelly wrote:Everyone is going too far into this.....


I don't know if everyone is, but the e-boys are off on another of their tiresome slanging matches. Accordingly, this thread is put into cold storage.
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Postby MJD » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:33 am

eldrick wrote:so ?

convicted by e-mails she sent

Apparently, it works.
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Postby Randy Treadway » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:38 pm

Per her statement, she is now retired from IAAF competition.

And her next race will be the long jump into the Big House. No more worry about wind gauges or altitude asterisks. Just a ball and chain.

Maybe next year she'll appear in "Faces in the Crowd" in SI, in a striped singlet and shorts, running a relay for Block D.

As the Michael MJ said in suggesting retirement, the sport needs to move on. Drop all her performances, reissue the medals as quickly as possible, and continue as if she'd never existed to begin wtih.

Marion who? Never heard of her.

I feel for her Sydney relay teammates though.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:09 am

Randy Treadway wrote:Marion who? Never heard of her.

She was pretty much forgotten before she sang on Thursday. I'd lay a few bucks of my horse money down on a remote (and I do mean remote) possibility that she might show up in a WNBA uniform, say like 2010, when all the smoke from this disaster has cleared.
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