Jones 'Devastated' by Doping Allegations


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Jones 'Devastated' by Doping Allegations

Postby EPelle » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:33 pm

"I was just totally devastated that a mistake like this can happen," Jones said on the show. "I've always said and I will continue to say that I believe in a drug-free sport. I have never, ever taken a performance-enhancing drug. I'm just quite pleased, happy, ecstatic … that this 'B' sample proves that I've never taken a drug."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory? ... SFeeds0312
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Postby EPelle » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:39 pm

"...that this 'B' sample proves that I've never taken a drug."

Subjectively speaking here, the "B"-sample revealed that there was an inconsistency in EPO readings between tests, and that no other drugs were found in Marion Jones system in June. One test did not prove that Marion Jones has never taken a drug, as she put it.

Video interview: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2409685

Jones states that after she was informed of the EPO positive test, she had to go on line, type it in, to see what EPO was about - that she had not really ever heard of it. Really.

Asked point-blank if she has ever used a PED, she stated to the effect that she has always maintained her innocence, she has never taken a drug, and this test proves she has never taken a drug.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:33 pm

EPelle wrote:Subjectively speaking here, the "B"-sample revealed that there was an inconsistency in EPO readings between tests, and that no other drugs were found in Marion Jones system in June.


An inconsistency?? Talk about a spin! I thought the whole point of drug testing was to establish the absolute presence of drugs in one's body. From what I understand, if a lab cannot establish the presence of any illegal drug in one's body, that test is negative.

If Marion's B-sample came up negative, how can there be a so-called inconsistency in the EPO readings? That defies logic, to say the least, unless there is a rule on how much EPO can be in one's body, as is the case with the T/E ratio. I haven't seen such a rule yet. So, for this "inconsistency" between EPO readings to to happen, there would have to be EPO present in the B-sample. Don't you think that, if there were, that sample would have been labeled positive, for which she would be facing a ban right now??

No other drugs? Give me a break! I'm done. This case is closed, anyway!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let the inquiry begin.
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Postby EPelle » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:38 pm

Inconsistency was introduced by Marion Jones team, not me.

No other drugs means just that: there were no other drugs in her system. Why is that hard to understand? The flag was for EPO, not any other drug.

Please explain to me how one test proves Marion Jones has never taken a drug.
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:05 am

EPelle wrote:Please explain to me how one test proves Marion Jones has never taken a drug.

EPelle,

She has never failed an official drug test . . . ever . . . period . . . end of story . . . (for now . . .)
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Postby eldrick » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:07 am

EPelle wrote:Please explain to me how one test proves Marion Jones has never taken a drug.


err...

how about all the other 1000 drug tests which she's taken in her life, which have all come back -ve ??/
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Postby eldrick » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:11 am

EPelle wrote:"...that this 'B' sample proves that I've never taken a drug."

Subjectively speaking here, the "B"-sample revealed that there was an inconsistency in EPO readings between tests, and that no other drugs were found in Marion Jones system in June. One test did not prove that Marion Jones has never taken a drug, as she put it.


err...

how about all the other 1000 drug tests which she's taken in her life, which have all come back -ve ??

Jones states that after she was informed of the EPO positive test, she had to go on line, type it in, to see what EPO was about - that she had not really ever heard of it. Really.


as far as i'm aware, mj is neither an oncologist nor a haematologist , so what's the surprise she's never heard of it ???
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:53 am

eldrick,

regarding the EPO: Kelli White apparently had used it. Marion Jones calls herself, in her own words, "an internet junkie." You:re stating that Marion Jones has never heard of EPO - especially when it affected a close competitor, and has to do with BALCO?

Regarding the first point: She stated, herself, eldrick, that this test proves she has never taken a drug.
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:03 am

bad hammy wrote:
EPelle wrote:Please explain to me how one test proves Marion Jones has never taken a drug.

EPelle,

She has never failed an official drug test . . . ever . . . period . . . end of story . . . (for now . . .)


Bad Hammy, you:re point is understood, but that is not what I am pointing out. I am asking how Marion Jones, in her own words, can state that the result of this particular test - the first which has had an apparent positive-"A" - ensures that she has always been clean. She should have stated that this test - in addition to the hundreds of others to which she has been subjected - demonstrates that. She didn:t. She bundled her entire past history into the result of this one test.

"I'm just quite pleased, happy, ecstatic … that this 'B' sample proves that I've never taken a drug."
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:07 am

EPelle wrote:Regarding the first point: She stated, herself, eldrick, that this test proves she has never taken a drug.

EPelle,

With this and the statements of her law-dudes and drug-test-dudes, you are doing far too much word-parsing. Forget all about what the dudes (or MJ) are saying. Repeat after me: ‘She has never failed a drug test – ever.’ It is as true today as it was a year ago, or ten years ago.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:18 am

EPelle wrote:eldrick,

regarding the EPO: Kelli White apparently had used it. Marion Jones calls herself, in her own words, "an internet junkie." You:re stating that Marion Jones has never heard of EPO - especially when it affected a close competitor, and has to do with BALCO?


internet junkie ?

& as an attractive young western woman with a child, i'd imagine she spends the vast majority of her surfing on fashion, beauty, child-care sites

do you have insider info that her surfing is on oncological & haematological sites ?

Regarding the first point: She stated, herself, eldrick, that this test proves she has never taken a drug.


& she can add " the thousands of -ve tests i've had to back that up"

or i've added it on her behalf
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Postby mrbowie » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:20 am

Without question, the single lamest argument or comment about whether an athlete is guilty of cheating by taking PEDs is that they never failed a drug test.

Today, the most effective way to nab a cheat is through good old fashioned police and detective work, not by tests to find chemicals, because even though BALCO is out of business, there are plenty of other PEDs out there and, as we all know, the bad guys are ahead of the curve in finding them and using them.
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:34 am

Ok, folks. I:ll play dumb, and lay low until the next time Jones surfaces - not by my will, but by her own.
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:57 am

EPelle wrote:Ok, folks. I:ll play dumb, and lay low until the next time Jones surfaces - not by my will, but by her own.

EPelle,

Many of your posts over the past month or so concerning MJ constitute as a whole, the most compelling non-test-result analysis of her entire career. Anyone who reads these and still feels that MJ is a totally natural babe is kidding themselves.

BUT, the test results are in. She is clean, always has been.

Lay low on this issue. Beating it to a pulp sans positive tests undermines the credibility of your overall argument. And it takes way too much time out of your day (some of your posts must have taken hours!)

Just like many supposedly tainted athletes now and in the past, MJ may never be ‘proven’ to be dirty. However, her life and name have been besmirched beyond belief, and her income significantly damaged. She may not have been punished to the extent you (and others) feel is required, but she is definitely not getting a free ride here.
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Postby Snation » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:44 am

Laying low is a good idea. If anyone doesn't believe Marion Inc. is dirty by now, then they just won't be convinced of it (and if there is a + test, it will be explained away).
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Postby tafnut » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:58 am

Snation wrote:Laying low is a good idea. If anyone doesn't believe Marion Inc. is dirty by now, then they just won't be convinced of it (and if there is a + test, it will be explained away).


Not really true. I have defended MJ all along, but when the A+ came out, I accepted it. Now that the B- is here, my heart accepts her 'innocence' (my brain is still skeptical, but my mind remains open). If she were to fail another test, I would accept that as proof of her guilt.

We have all these precepts of judging guilt, so when the evidence is presented, we 'accept' the verdict. Right now, YOU are the one not believing the evidence, yet you criticize those who would maintain she is 'not guilty', when that is exactly what the EVIDENCE shows. Ironic, no?
:-(

The EG women proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone can be guilty, without a positive test, so I can't say MJ is 'not guilty'. Yes, there is an impenetrable smokescreen surrounding this case, but we have ALL been in denial about how dirty the elites are. I welcome her back into competition with the understanding that she is probably no dirtier or cleaner than her rivals, who ALSO have not had a +test.

Until the testers get AHEAD of the athletes, we are faced with this situation, so we accept the status quo, hoping for a better day.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:25 am

I can believe Mj never took anything ever but i cant believe she never heard of EPO. I dont believe that is possible.
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:39 am

Squackee, why not? She said she has never heard of it.
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Postby tafnut » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:53 am

EPelle wrote:Squackee, why not? She said she has never heard of it.


Snide . . . because she has lied before, most notably about CJ and TM.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:12 am

EPelle wrote:Squackee, why not? She said she has never heard of it.


Not believeable. Its like her saying she never heard of," what do you call it ster...ster..oid? What is steroid ? " Just my 2 cents. But she has been surrounded for a decade with drug taking spouses, drug pushing coaches and in a sport that has drugs everywhere, and she's never heard of EPO? Come on!
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:25 am

tafnut wrote:
EPelle wrote:Squackee, why not? She said she has never heard of it.


Snide . . . because she has lied before, most notably about CJ and TM.


Second-to-last question here: Are you certain she lied?
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Postby tafnut » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:02 am

EPelle wrote:
tafnut wrote:
EPelle wrote:Squackee, why not? She said she has never heard of it.


Snide . . . because she has lied before, most notably about CJ and TM.


Second-to-last question here: Are you certain she lied?


She stuck by both her men, maintaining their innocence. She knew they were dirty, ergo she lied trying to 'protect the man she loved'. She did nothing to further justice in either case and THAT CAN be held against her character (though most of us would probably do near anything to protect our loved ones).

MJ is the poster child for modern track scapegoatism. We're trying desperately to nail her, out of our frustration that we can't bust ALL the guilty parties (which I submit we don't really want to do, cuz it would bring down T&F lock, stock, barrel).
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:29 am

If Marion Jones has lied, and Victor Conte has lied - both about the same men, must we distrust one but hold fast to the other one:s innocence?
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Postby tafnut » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:31 am

EPelle wrote:If Marion Jones has lied, and Victor Conte has lied - both about the same men, must we distrust one but hold fast to the other one:s innocence?


Were their motives for lying identical? We ALL lie in some fashion. Does that mean everything we say is a lie, or, for that matter, the total truth?
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Postby Snation » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:32 am

Two thoughts on Marion Jones:

1. In Game of Shadows she comes across as abscent minded. There was one point where someone had bought her a 1000.00 injector for HGH. She kept losing it. She also would leave her supply of hormone in the refrigerator of her hotel. She started using a shoe to remind her of the HGH; then she lost her shoe....it might be that she is kept in the dark secretly, or just too abscent minded to figure it all out.
-or-
2. As Marion Jones, MJ's words are carefully choosen. We should examine her statements carefully. For instance 'I have never used PEDs'. Marion might be saying this as the letter of the law. Has EPO been proven to be a PED for her race? No.

Marion did not say 'I have never used banned drugs' (maybe she did state this at some point; but I don't know about it).

There is precedent:
- Barry Bonds evading questions all the time. "Did you use insulin?' (Barry) "I don't have diabetes'.
- Bill Clinton's technical denials.
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Postby Snation » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:40 am

In this illegal shadowy game, every statement is calculated. This is worse than politics...or about the same.

I do not totally believe any one person in this game. But I do think people can look at the overall behaviors, then make logical conclusions.

Let's face it again, this is a forensic chase. We cannot treat this issue as a race with clear winners and clear losers. Like forensics (which these WADA labs really are), clear lab evidence isn't always available. And like forensics, testimony evidence should be considered.

Futher moving into the area of forensics, the athletes are hand in hand with lawyers who's job it is to cast doubt on each and every piece of evidence.

The mafia (coaches and chemists) are out there cutting off the victims hands (cleaning out the drugs before the race), chopping off the head (using masking agents), and disposing the body in the ocean. When a body is found, they argue every piece of evidence...

f Marion Jones has lied, and Victor Conte has lied - both about the same men, must we distrust one but hold fast to the other one:s innocence?
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Postby tafnut » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:41 am

Snation wrote:Bill Clinton's technical denials.


He is the Gold Standard of "Truth". Anyone who can, in his own mind, believe that fellatio is not sex, and can turn the verb 'to be' (well, that depends on what your definition of 'is' is.) into an existential question (well, Hamlet did that too), is the Master. MJ is pretty good, I must admit.
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:45 am

tafnut wrote:
EPelle wrote:If Marion Jones has lied, and Victor Conte has lied - both about the same men, must we distrust one but hold fast to the other one:s innocence?


Were their motives for lying identical? We ALL lie in some fashion. Does that mean everything we say is a lie, or, for that matter, the total truth?

They both initially lied to protect themselves and someone else. Then they both began pointing fingers at each other - Conte, first at Jones; Jones responded with her lawsuit.

Here:s a pessimistic author who doesn:t put much weight into the Jones result:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/l ... ?track=rss

It's not that I don't believe in the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty. I do. But I also believe just as strongly in gut instinct, common sense and the eyeball factor.

Here is what my gut, eyes and common sense tell me: Barry Bonds' head didn't swell to the size of a bowling ball because of a gigantic headache. The acne on Mark McGwire's face wasn't an allergic reaction to Raisinets. Justin Gatlin's masseuse isn't Mission: Impossible superspy Ethan Hunt. And Floyd Landis didn't somehow unearth the most potent Jack Daniels on the planet.

Jones' negative test doesn't mean anything to me, because some of sports' most obvious cheaters consistently have passed drug tests.


So, then, what does a clean test from any athlete really mean? We see athletes busted for possessing illegal drugs all the time. Where, then, are those failed drug tests?

If the old saying is true that bad company corrupts good manners, what should be made of the fact that everyone in Jones' inner circle is linked to performance-enhancing drugs?


Scott Ostler, in his column today about holes in the EPO testing, began his piece with the same sentiments I shared in opening up this thread:

Good for Marion Jones; her B sample was negative. Which, as she says, "Proves that I have never used drugs."

Wow, that's a very comprehensive test.

But while Jones has been cleared -- bad choice of words, I should say exonerated -- I'm withholding judgment until the lab releases the test results of Marion's C sample.

It is best-of-three, isn't it?


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... rss.sports
Last edited by EPelle on Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JRM » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:46 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
EPelle wrote:Squackee, why not? She said she has never heard of it.


Not believeable. Its like her saying she never heard of," what do you call it ster...ster..oid? What is steroid ? " Just my 2 cents. But she has been surrounded for a decade with drug taking spouses, drug pushing coaches and in a sport that has drugs everywhere, and she's never heard of EPO? Come on!


This is Epelle's point, but I'm sure you're aware of that. If she can so easily lie to our collective face about the fact that she's never heard of EPO, then ... what else?

Marion did not say 'I have never used banned drugs' (maybe she did state this at some point; but I don't know about it).


What Marion said most recently is that she has "always maintained that she never took performance enhancing drugs". So, that could be true: she *has* always maintained that stance. Secondly, a-la Clintonian language, perhaps she's also right that she has never taken *performance* enhancing drugs. EPO would be a training enhancer.
Last edited by JRM on Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Snation » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:47 am

It is a forensics case. Testers are always behind the cheats. The cheats like the GDR, know how to beat the system.
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Postby tafnut » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:59 am

Snation wrote:It is a forensics case. Testers are always behind the cheats. The cheats like the GDR, know how to beat the system.


To put a fine point on it, the athletes do NOT know how to beat squat. The Victor Contes and 'scientists' (e.g., Patrick Arnold) are even MORE guilty in my book. They prey on the competitive instincts of people who are already desperate for any edge they can find.
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Postby Snation » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:02 am

hear hear!
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:20 am

The conversation context of the "B"-sample clearing Marion Jones of any and all drug allegations:

Robin: So let me point-blank ask you again: Marion, have you ever, ever taken any type of sports performance-enhancing drug?

Jones: Um...I have always said - and I will continue to say - that I believe in a drug-free sport, I have never ever taken a performance-enhancing drug, and I:m just quite pleased...happy...ecstatic - any adjective to describe how I feel right now in terms of the fact that um, this "B"-sample proved that um that I have never taken a drug, and that I haven:t taken a drug. And I hope really, Robin, that this whole situation with me is used as a catalyst - a catalyst for more research in testing, a catalyst for better confidentiality samples and just to protect the athletes.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:15 am

EPelle wrote:The conversation context of the "B"-sample clearing Marion Jones of any and all drug allegations:

Robin: So let me point-blank ask you again: Marion, have you ever, ever taken any type of sports performance-enhancing drug?

Jones: Um...I have always said - and I will continue to say - that I believe in a drug-free sport, I have never ever taken a performance-enhancing drug, and I:m just quite pleased...happy...ecstatic - any adjective to describe how I feel right now in terms of the fact that um, this "B"-sample proved that um that I have never taken a drug, and that I haven:t taken a drug. And I hope really, Robin, that this whole situation with me is used as a catalyst - a catalyst for more research in testing, a catalyst for better confidentiality samples and just to protect the athletes.


& we can e-mail marion to tell her that her italicised quote is causing terrific distress to a few posters here - they can't eat, they can't sleep, they have stopped functioning, period !

we can ask her to add

& there are thousands of -ve tests i've had to back that up


to her next public pronouncement so that these crippled individuals can therefore recover & get a life !
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Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:34 am

eldrick, I was due for a laugh today. Thanks.

The "B"-sample demonstrates, legally, that the second of Marion Jones "I have nots" is true. It does not prove that she never has taken a drug as she asserts in the first part of her denial. Marion Jones adjoined both statements at the hip - her very far past, and her recent past, and left the viewer to deduce that this test has legally cleared her from any previous allegations.

Regardless, it:s a statement. Nothing less, and nothing more. Her test results? Negative. Why she chose to bundle everything under one umbrella is odd... so odd that several professional writers across the USA picked up on this and wondered, gee, what kind of one-time test covers Marion Jones entire career?!
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Postby Snation » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:37 am

Eldrick, could you be just a little overstating the case about T&F posters? :-)

The same fans that are bothered by the most high profile woman's athlete today being a drug cheat, are prolly the same fans upset at the dug cheat Barry Bonds getting records. Simply a matter of integrity. Oh well.

I know this is a grotesque fillet of the quote, but:

Jones: Um...I have always said - and I will continue to say - that I believe in a drug-free sport,
(meaning: yeah I don't want my competitors taking drugs that might bring their times down)
I have never ever taken a performance-enhancing drug,
(none of the drugs I have taken has ever been proven to be PEDs)
and I:m just quite pleased...happy...ecstatic - any adjective to describe how I feel right now in terms of the fact that um, this "B"-sample proved that um that I have never taken a drug,
(she should have said 'proved I did not have EPO in my urine' it doesn't the slight bit prove she has never taken a drug)
and that I haven:t taken a drug. And I hope really, Robin, that this whole situation with me is used as a catalyst - a catalyst for more research in testing, a catalyst for better confidentiality samples and just to protect the athletes.
(this is true the testing needs more confidentiality; and by the way MJ, the A/B protocol did protect the athlete)[/quote]
Last edited by Snation on Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mrbowie » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:38 pm

Police and detective work, not drug testing, is the real answer to catching the cheats.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:31 am

Jones attorney apparently behind the Great Escape from Zürich.

It was one of those phone calls that came during a time of day that prompted Rich Nichols’ instincts to tell him it wasn’t going to be good news, and it wasn’t. On the other end of the line that day roughly three weeks ago was a client from Zurich. She was in tears.

It was track star Marion Jones. She’d just been informed she’d tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug.

Nichols, her lawyer, calmed her down as best he could and told her to come home immediately.


http://tinyurl.com/g7w79
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Postby Jay Peterman » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:52 am

Would just like to say I haven't a clue what to think, except it's all sad and messy.

Profound, huh?!
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