So, Marion had the key to Bernard Lagat's back door...


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So, Marion had the key to Bernard Lagat's back door...

Postby CookyMonzta » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:10 pm

What now for Marion? First of all, if I were her, I would not celebrate just yet. As a matter of fact, if I were her, I would not celebrate at all!

For one, that is just one test. I'd bet good money that the labs have been sitting on the test results from her other meets, until the results of this B-sample came back. Now that it is reported it was negative, what if her other results are made public, and one of them came up for steroids?

Then again, there is the 'black cat syndrome' that follows her everywhere she goes. Everyone she has had a mutual relationship with has later come up dirty, from C.J. Hunter to Tim Montgomery to her former coach, Trevor Graham.

Not everyone whose name was on the BALCO list has been suspendeed from track; but the fact that her name was listed among the clients made everyone even more suspicious, simply because she was high on the A-list of track stars. Victor Conte's interview only further agitated things for her.

The impending downfall that Justin Gatlin is likely to endure, and LaTasha Jenkins' positive test for nandrolone, makes it even more likely that Trevor Graham will be brought before an inquiry into his activities (with feds involved); and when that happens, Marion Jones is likely to be called as a witness, and her career stats will surely be put into the spotlight, even right up to her split from Graham in 2001. She could still lose her Olympic medals at the conclusion of such an inquiry, among a great many other things.

I imagine that, even if ends up having tested clean in all of her other meets this year, she is not likely to be invited to the 2007 or 2008 European campaign; and even some U.S. meets may catch the shakes when her name is mentioned. If she survives the inquiry, her only meets the next two years may very well be the 2007 USA Track and Field Outdoor Championships, the 2007 World Championships, the 2008 USA Championships and XXIX Olympiad in Beijing.

Relief, maybe; but I still say, GET ON WITH THE INQUIRY! Let's get this $#!+ going, and get it over with! The news we've just read and heard is exactly what happens when an organization drags its feet! Once more, it pretty much proves how unreliable the EPO test still is today.

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Let the inquiry begin.
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Re: So, Marion had the key to Bernard Lagat's back door...

Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:09 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:For one, that is just one test. I'd bet good money that the labs have been sitting on the test results from her other meets, until the results of this B-sample came back. Now that it is reported it was negative, what if her other results are made public, and one of them came up for steroids?[/i]


chances of that are 0

she's been targeted for over 6y & no +ve tests

if they had a +ve test for her from years ago, you can be your bottom dollar we wouda heard of it !!!
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Re: So, Marion had the key to Bernard Lagat's back door...

Postby CookyMonzta » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:17 pm

eldrick wrote:
CookyMonzta wrote:For one, that is just one test. I'd bet good money that the labs have been sitting on the test results from her other meets, until the results of this B-sample came back. Now that it is reported it was negative, what if her other results are made public, and one of them came up for steroids?[/i]


chances of that are 0

she's been targeted for over 6y & no +ve tests

if they had a +ve test for her from years ago, you can be your bottom dollar we wouda heard of it !!!

I'm referring to the meets she has entered this year.

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Let the inquiry begin.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:20 pm

err...

don't you think analysis on them has already been done & dusted or are they going to analyse them next year ???
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Postby PEDLESS » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:22 pm

CookieMonsta!

Stop being a hater. She got away. The gal is GRACED!

There is NOTHING those inquiries can do to Marion. NOTHING! The Feds don't even want Marion. (actually, they like her). Trevor can say whatever he wants. The Entire Track Community has dissassociated themselves with him.

You can forget about the T&F World coming after Marion. They don't want to tangle with THOSE lawyers.

They got nothing but (as you say) Trevor's Testimony?

He's already washed up and don't matter. BTW, Nike haven't suspended Marion's contract (Like Trevor's and Justin's) - so she's still getting paid serious COIN!
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Postby CookyMonzta » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:03 pm

PEDLESS wrote:CookieMonsta!

Stop being a hater. She got away. The gal is GRACED!

There is NOTHING those inquiries can do to Marion. NOTHING! The Feds don't even want Marion. (actually, they like her). Trevor can say whatever he wants. The Entire Track Community has dissassociated themselves with him.

You can forget about the T&F World coming after Marion. They don't want to tangle with THOSE lawyers.

They got nothing but (as you say) Trevor's Testimony?

He's already washed up and don't matter. BTW, Nike haven't suspended Marion's contract (Like Trevor's and Justin's) - so she's still getting paid serious COIN!

Who said I was a hater? I'm more concerned about USADA, WADA or even the IOC pulling a fast one on her right up to the minute she takes her mark at the 2007 World Championships or 2008 Olympics. If they had brought her before an inquiry (guilty or not), long before this sorry episode, we wouldn't have had the mess we have now. Better yet, if they had tightened the screws in their own labs, we wouldn't be in this mess now.

Fortunately, a lot of people have egg and $#!+ on their faces. Everyone who salivated relentlessly for red meat, ended up coming down with salmonella instead! But I can't help but think that, if Trevor is brought before an inquiry (and he will), and she's ordered to testify, they might bring up evidence (flimsy or otherwise) to trip her up, and from there they will re-examine her career, which could lead to a big mess...

...But then again, you have a point. No one has so forcefully advocated stripping medals won by a trainload of athletes from Eastern Europe (especially the DDR) in the 1970s and 1980s. Why such a big deal with Marion?

I still say that she should have abandoned the 100 and 200 when she came back from her pregnancy, and considered the 400 and 800. Nevertheless, let's get Trevor's inquiry over with, and let her move on from there. If they wait until she toes the line in Beijing, in the 100, 200 or 400, to yank her off the track, then the very same people who thought they had her number last month will look even more suspicious than she.

And once again, even if, in the end, she was nothing more than an athlete who never touched a syringe, EVER, but had the never-ending misfortune of being around people who turned out to be bad company, the damage has already been done, severely.

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Let the inquiry begin.
Last edited by CookyMonzta on Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:23 pm

They have more than Trevor:s testimony.

Victor Conte:s legal counsel, Robert M. Holley in a letter to President George W. Bush and a carbon copy to John Ashcroft dated 2004-06-14 wrote:We, all of us, need to do everything possible to send a clean Olympic team to Athens. If we fail to do so, and the information about our failure is later made public, after the Olympic medals are given out, the results could be disastrous. A public outcry will be heard around the world that Americans are fraudulent rule breakers and cannot be trusted. There will be hearings and lawsuits and medals taken away. All of our athletes, past, present and future, will feel the sting and all Americans will feel the shame...

Mr. Conte is willing to reveal everything he knows about officials, coaches and athletes in order to help to clean up the Olympics. He will answer all questions from the United States Department of Justice, the United States Olympic Committee (USOC), and the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA.). Further, he will put together a team of experts and truthful witnesses who will aid in this massive job of restoring faith in American athletes and respect for our system of fair competition. In return, Mr. Conte asks that he not be forced to plead guilty to money laundering (a crime which he insists he did not commit) and that he be guaranteed a sentence of straight probation for both he and Mr. Valente. Quite frankly, what Mr. Conte has to offer in terms of real value to this country is worth far in excess of any possible sentence in the pending criminal case. In fact, if Mr. Conte is forced to trial, it well may be that the Court would sentence him to straight probation in any event.

So, Mr. President, justice has many faces. Your agents and legal counsel may well have done the United States a great service in bringing this action, but only if it is used wisely. Everyone in this country has great interest in avoiding the shame of being branded a country of "cheaters." Time is of the essence. We respectfully request your immediate intervention and guidance. All we need is your word, Mr. President. We can work out the details.


Sure, this comes from a team who:s man has his back against the wall at that point. The man lied previously - as did Tim Montgomery and C.J. Hunter. However, no matter how one spins this, these three have identified Marion Jones as having used steroids.

Or do you believe there is a vandetta against her by these men? Are they co-conspirators set to bring her down due to some anger, bitterness and hate found within themselves?

Conte has stated many a time that Jones is guilty. He also is linked to Montgomery and Hunter - two men whom were subsequently busted for PEDs...two men who, according to their own legal testimony, agree (separately) that Marion Jones used drugs. Conte had nothing against her - he actually liked her, he stated on record. She was just someone doing what she had to do to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak.

"I have no bone to pick with Marion," Conte tells "20/20's" Bashir. "I'm here today because I believe that the world needs to hear the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so that we can really attempt collectively to try to genuinely create a level playing field for the athletes of the future.


If you are all about the legal system exonerating folks, take into consideration what is being stated in the legal court of law about your esteemed athlete. A man lied about providing athletes performance-enhancing drugs, yet states at another occasion that he provided them to Marion Jones. One athlete, who was going to have a whistle blown on his misdeeds, was identified through coercision - through a raid finding. That athlete has tested positive for the drug mentioned in the evidence taken at the BALCO site.

Can a liar ever tell the truth? Apparently not, according to you guys stating that we are singing songs from a broken record. A test is a test is a test, and the passing of that test proves everything. In this case, it provides her a viable backing and clearance to compete.

Jones is running low in the excuse-substance department. What will it be next time? My son is deficient in a certain area, needs medications, and I accidently stabbed myself with one of his medications?
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Postby eldrick » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:53 pm

so you are happy to accept the words of 2 bitter, disgruntled ex-partners ?

or the word of a convict ?

i'll stick to results of drug tests or a federal inquiry where risk of perjury is 'sing-sing
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:07 am

eldrick wrote:so you are happy to accept the words of 2 bitter, disgruntled ex-partners ?

or the word of a convict ?

i'll stick to results of drug tests or a federal inquiry where risk of perjury is 'sing-sing


Ever hear of Salvatore "Sammy The Bull" Gravano? His words - under oath - were accepted and used as evidence against John Gotti.

And, despite his having confessed to participating in 19 murders, Gravano was only given a five year sentence, and then he was placed in the Witness Protection Program.

It happens, eldrick.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:39 am

i assume he had some substantial, irrefutable evidence in addition to plain testimony ( you're not going to convict a mob boss on just plain testimony of a life-criminal )- concealed wire-tape admissions of gotti ordering murders

where's conte's taped admissions of marion's wrong-doing ?
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:53 am

eldrick, who really knows but Victor Conte? He seems sure enough...so sure that he stated so on national television in the United States - in prime time. So positive, that he was willing to put his neck out there. So sure, that he had a letter written to the USA President and Attorney General stating that Victor Conte had something to offer.

C.J. Hunter? He and Marion Jones signed non-disclosure agreements when they divorced (the contents of which can be construed many a way - yours and mine alike). He stated something under oath which implicates and accuses Marion Jones. Period. So did Tim Montgomery. Their stories corroborate statements made by Victor Conte. That same Victor Conte, under oath, stated he had information relevant to the Marion Jones case which could cause her trouble - as did Montgomery and Jones.

How long are we going to play this cat-and-mouse, song-and-dance with what Conte said vs what Jones denies?

Do you think Conte would have asked for pardon by Bush - or some form of clemency - only to subsequently be found to have little-to-no relevant information to provide the government?
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Postby eldrick » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:23 am

so

that woud be " no wire-tape confession" & just plain testimony

thanks, but no thanks
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:25 am

Did you overlook the first sentence, eldrick, who really knows but Victor Conte?
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Postby eldrick » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:28 am

overlook what ?

testimony of a convict with nothing else to offer ?
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:51 am

Has the government ever looked into Vince Reed? He is supposedly to have sent packages directly to Jones homes - to the address she shared with C.J. Hunter, and the address she shared with Tim Montgomery. Has any branch of the government - local, national or IRS - ever traced those packages to those homes?

Vince Reed is to have been an AKA for Victor Conte - a claim not refuted by Conte:s own lawyers.

Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams in an article for the San Francisco Chronicle dated 2004-07-23 wrote:Like Hunter, Montgomery also said Conte used the name "Vince Reed" when using Federal Express to ship banned substances. He also claimed that Graham had a Mexican connection for banned substances via a man in Texas. During his testimony, Montgomery was not asked whether Jones used drugs.


We know about the Mexican connection, as it was spelled out by the New York Times.

Angel Guillermo Heredia, a steroids dealer and nutritionist with ties in Mexico and Texas, swore in an affidavit that all associates in the Graham camp had used steroids or, at least in Graham:s case, that Graham had dispensed steroids to those associates. Mr. Heredia testified before two grand juries that he drew those conclusions, because he had provided the drugs and had sometimes carried those drugs across the USA border with Mexico.

Mr. Heredia testified that he made a drug plan for Marion Jones, provided the drugs Marion Jones, and worked with Marion Jones in preparation for the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games, where Marion Jones won a record number of medals.

Q: Are all of these people out to get Marion Jones, or are they telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth under oath and with the risk of perjuring themselves in the event they are not disclosing the truth?

As far as Conte having nothing to offer:

USADA had a lot of evidence on Kelli White gathered from the BALCO raids, including e-mails and drug use schedules, and also had at their disposal a positive test from a sample sent to an outside lab for analysis. Who was on the other end of those e-mails? None other than Victor Conte.

The information offered on Tim Montgomery - including evidence taken in the BALCO raids and subsequent interviews with officials and IRS - was used to damn him to banishment. Who is directly connected to Tim Montgomery? None other than Victor Conte.

Marion Jones camp has taken a hard-line approach with USADA in stating Jones has never failed a test, and that her accusers - or implicators - are all liars with an agenda.

On July 8, Hunter testified before the San Francisco federal grand jury that is investigating the BALCO case. He also has met with USADA, the agency investigating Jones for possible doping violations, but it has not acted on his allegations. Hunter "has cooperated with federal authorities and will continue to do so," said his attorney, Angela DeMent.

Aspects of Hunter's account about Jones and banned substances are mirrored by other evidence allegedly obtained during the BALCO probe.


They tried spinning the C.J. Hunter case out from under him by stating that Hunter:s statements about Marion Jones being a drugs user is in direct contradiction to what her coach, Trevor Graham, had stated, and that Hunter should not be believed. The same Graham who has had 11 (or is that 12) athletes test positive for performance-enhancing drugs, and has been under suspicion for quite some time. Odd that they would attempt to refute Hunter:s testimony based on Graham:s testimony.

I have my opinion, and am sticking with it. You have your own. Nothing I say can or will alter your perception, nor ease you from your steadfast disagreement with my opinion. I am open to your opinion, but it has holes - larger ones than you claim mine does.

We are both basing our claims off of judicial processes - yours off of concrete, factual information in the form of drugs test results and a polygraph test, mine in the form of trustworthy information provided by individuals under oath who have much more to lose than to gain by being untruthful in making those statements.

Some ask folks here to let the judicial process determine Jones guilt - whether that process is whole or may need some work. They ask folks to trust in the judicial process, citing that due process is to be provided accused athletes.

When that process begins to display a very clear demonstration of wrongdoing and guilt - not by association, but by testimony made during the course of that due process - some are very, very, very slow to acknowledge that one of the folks sitting under the heat lamp in that dark, cold room filled with cigarette smoke just may be telling the truth.

Their excuse: Marion Jones has never failed a drugs test. Has anyone considered that by the time the 2:nd test was conducted, trace amounts of EPO may have become even more diverse, leaving a disparity between results?
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Postby peach » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:59 am

eldrick wrote:so you are happy to accept the words of 2 bitter, disgruntled ex-partners ?


Was Tim Montgomery apart from Marion Jones when he first stated she took drugs ?

And would he lie about the mother of his child ?

Hmm...
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Postby Jaack » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:40 am

Frankly I think her "innocence" is more damaging to the sport than her positive test!
I'm sure at least 50% of fans and a higher percentage of non regular supporters firmly believe she's been a cheat, and will now have to watch her compete! She'll be a constant reminder of our riddled sport and she'll get paid for running it into the ground! Our sport has just become one big JOKE!
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Postby 333 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:55 am

Barry Bonds....Marion Jones....Marion Barry....Barry Bonds..:..Marion Jones....Marion Barry.
Ain't no way I'm gonna name my kid Marion or Barry. 'Tis a curse.
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Postby TrakFan » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:30 am

Jaack wrote:Frankly I think her "innocence" is more damaging to the sport than her positive test!
I'm sure at least 50% of fans and a higher percentage of non regular supporters firmly believe she's been a cheat, and will now have to watch her compete! She'll be a constant reminder of our riddled sport and she'll get paid for running it into the ground! Our sport has just become one big JOKE!


Yes, the Dope Testing process is somewhat of a joke right now, and clearly unfair to the athlete
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:31 am

No, you have that wrong. The testing procedure is what saved Marion Jones this time.
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Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:38 am

Do we know that what Hunter has stated to the press is the same as what he said under oath? How would you know? Kellie White was convinced that she would be found guilty of doping due to the evidence turned up in BALCO. How come MJ has not been so convinced; the most likely explanation is that the evidence that was obtained and the Grand Jury testimony was not strong enough to lead to that outcome.

Now, when you get someone on the inside who is willing to go to jail for maybe over a year so that they do not have to provide Grand Jury testimony against MJ then you have a gun that appears to be really smoking. The CJ stuff is just not enough to have any more than opinions about what it situation is.

My guess, given Conte's actions, is that he said some things about MJ that are not correct and that is why he pulled back in the suit. His later statements have been less specific and said somewhat different things. A key problem with Conte is that, not only has he appeared to lie at times, but that he appears to have an agenda that is furthered by keeping himslef at the center of things. [edit: I forgot to add in here that I also guess that he said some things about MJ that are true; I just do not know what they are. Also, there are people with probably reliable information (see EPelle below) that I do not have, so what do I know.]
Last edited by 26mi235 on Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:00 am

Hunter is under agreement to not speak with the press. He accused Jones of breaking that agreement.

How would I know more about Hunter? Let:s leave that up to later discussion when the dust settles and I can add the final period to my concluding sentence in this entire affair.

Regarding Conte: he had an agenda to help people cheat, and to be a pioneer in his field in that respect. He succeeded up until the point where Graham turned in the syringe. At this time Conte refused to turn on his own people. He lied in investigations about ever having named athletes. Then something got him to get very honest with everyone involved - to the extreme point where he knowingly stepped into a bear trap on "20/20". He went so far as the request the President of the United States of America, George W. Bush, step in and help him turn over the tree branch which had fallen on athletics after the BALCO storm.

Who is to say that Conte:s quietness on the Jones case is not the result of the out-of-court settlement? He asserted her guilt the moment she had been leaked to have had an adverse "A"-test, and said to the effect that he has been saying all along that she is guilty -- as to say, well, duh, what did you think?
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Postby caribman » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:16 am

people always feel that just because of the very asscocates she's, who's been involved n dopin, that she's had to be on steriods to, well, after all her drug testing and super close scrutiny and investigatons, either Marion Jones is a VERY good con artist, or just plain INNOCENT. i say she's just PLAIN INNCOCENT!!!

i think no matter who it is around you that does bad things, no matter how close, one can still stand out and be the good one!! i think marion is that good one!
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:47 am

Others are tired of the song-and-dance as well:

Updated: Sep. 7, 2006, 11:32 AM ET
No test can salvage Jones' tarnished legacy

Source

    I will still always remember her sitting in that news conference in Sydney, trying to tell everyone that her husband, C.J. Hunter, could be trusted, that he was a truth teller. He was trying to talk his way out of those positive doping tests, trying to spare America's golden girl guilt by association.

    And nearby, there was a stranger to the public standing with them.

    His name was Victor Conte.

    As it turned out, he was practically part of the family.

    So, Jones wanted us to believe Hunter was telling the truth in 2000 when insisting that he was innocent. And then, she wanted us to believe he was lying later when he described how he injected her with steroids during her five-medal performance in those Sydney Games.

    And Conte?

    He was telling the truth about Hunter in 2000.

    But then lying about Jones later, too.

So Jones' "B" sample has returned negative, contradicting her "A" sample test for EPO last month. What does that prove? Here's what it proves: At 30 years old, out of contention as a world-class athlete, out of BALCO's world, she isn't using performance-enhancing drugs.

She's clean now. Good for her, I guess.

Yet, you have every right to doubt the prime of her gold-medal-winning career. Since her husband (Hunter), boyfriend (Tim Montgomery) and coach (Trevor Graham) were implicated in major drug scandals, you have every right to wonder whether she was something more than an innocent bystander. Her life has been so intertwined with drug cheats, with dealers, that it's impossible to ever believe she was pure. That's just a fact. It is ridiculous to suggest that there's any test in 2006 that's going to exonerate Marion Jones' legacy. Truth be told, that test doesn't exist in the real world. You refuse to believe Hunter and Conte when they detail her alleged drug use? When they give times and places and exact details, when the documentation was all over BALCO files? Come on.
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Postby TrakFan » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:42 am

EPelle wrote:No, you have that wrong. The testing procedure is what saved Marion Jones this time.


I have to disagree. What saved Jones was not having EPO in her system. The (failed) procedure/protocol has further damaged her reputation. If the process worked as it should we would not be engaged in theses conversations... By WADA/USADA standards (+A, -B), Jones was/is "negative".

How many athletes aren't allowed to compete and earn revenue when their results are "negative"?
How many athletes need to hire attorneys when their results are "negative"?
How many athletes cause TAFNUT to lose hope when their results are "negative"?

The world was aware of her A result before her B result. This was a failure in the process, which ultimately hurt the athlete.
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confused

Postby diva » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30 am

I must say I have always believed in Marion. And this positive-turned-negative test just reinforces that for me.

But did I miss something??? When did Tim rat on Marion? What exactly did he say.
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Postby PEDLESS » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:51 am

Victor Conte is the scum of the earth. Looking at that devious man makes me puke. Here is a man that first surfaced in the bodybuilding world and got a "break" into the Track & Field world and has single-handily Destroyed countless lives.

There is no testing in bodybuilding and he wouldn't have been Known as the Scum that he is if he had stayed there.

Yet he branched off into Baseball/Football and Track and has 'happily' ruined lives.

Thank god he's right where he started - with Broke Bodybuilding losers.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:53 pm

TrakFan wrote:
EPelle wrote:No, you have that wrong. The testing procedure is what saved Marion Jones this time.


I have to disagree. What saved Jones was not having EPO in her system. The (failed) procedure/protocol has further damaged her reputation. If the process worked as it should we would not be engaged in theses conversations... By WADA/USADA standards (+A, -B), Jones was/is "negative".

How many athletes aren't allowed to compete and earn revenue when their results are "negative"?
How many athletes need to hire attorneys when their results are "negative"?
How many athletes cause TAFNUT to lose hope when their results are "negative"?

The world was aware of her A result before her B result. This was a failure in the process, which ultimately hurt the athlete.


You:re preaching to the choir here, pastor.

Try this one on for size instead (what I was ultimately getting at and to which I was referring):

Today:s SF Gate wrote:Because Jones tested positive on one sample and negative on another, people will undoubtedly begin to wonder about the dangers of an athlete being convicted on unreliable evidence. Could the tests on Tour de France champion Floyd Landis and 100-meter world-record holder Justin Gatlin, both of them facing bans for using synthetic testosterone, be just as wrong?

That's a natural question, but it ignores a few important facts. One, Landis and Gatlin flunked both their A and B tests. Two, they tested positive for a substance that is very different from EPO, the one that appeared in Jones' A sample. Three, the B sample is the last thing that should make the case that drug testing is unfair to innocent athletes. The B test exists to protect the accused. In Jones' case, it buffered her from a suspension even in a system that her supporters have portrayed as excessively eager to bust her.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:23 pm

EPelle wrote:Has the government ever looked into Vince Reed? He is supposedly to have sent packages directly to Jones homes - to the address she shared with C.J. Hunter, and the address she shared with Tim Montgomery. Has any branch of the government - local, national or IRS - ever traced those packages to those homes?

Vince Reed is to have been an AKA for Victor Conte - a claim not refuted by Conte:s own lawyers.


you woud have to be privy to the mail opening protocol in the tim/marion house

you aren't, so your speculation is baseless

We know about the Mexican connection, as it was spelled out by the New York Times.

Angel Guillermo Heredia, a steroids dealer and nutritionist with ties in Mexico and Texas, swore in an affidavit that all associates in the Graham camp had used steroids or, at least in Graham:s case, that Graham had dispensed steroids to those associates. Mr. Heredia testified before two grand juries that he drew those conclusions, because he had provided the drugs and had sometimes carried those drugs across the USA border with Mexico.

Mr. Heredia testified that he made a drug plan for Marion Jones, provided the drugs Marion Jones, and worked with Marion Jones in preparation for the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games, where Marion Jones won a record number of medals.


back to sole testimony nonsense

where is irrefutable wire-taped confessions ?

that all associates in the Graham camp had used steroids

utter nonsense

was he present at the time when ~ 8 athletes injected steroids ???


Q: Are all of these people out to get Marion Jones, or are they telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth under oath and with the risk of perjuring themselves in the event they are not disclosing the truth?


i can't explain why an idiot with just testimony but no irrefutable proof risks jail

perhaps he's a gloryhunter or thinks he might risk prison for a book deal ?

As far as Conte having nothing to offer:

USADA had a lot of evidence on Kelli White gathered from the BALCO raids, including e-mails and drug use schedules, and also had at their disposal a positive test from a sample sent to an outside lab for analysis. Who was on the other end of those e-mails? None other than Victor Conte.

The information offered on Tim Montgomery - including evidence taken in the BALCO raids and subsequent interviews with officials and IRS - was used to damn him to banishment. Who is directly connected to Tim Montgomery? None other than Victor Conte.


i see "evidence" used to convict kelli & tim

where is it against marion ???

we are 3y down the road from kelli/tim

feds haven't been able to sift thru the evidence in 3y to make a case against marion ???

Marion Jones camp has taken a hard-line approach with USADA in stating Jones has never failed a test, and that her accusers - or implicators - are all liars with an agenda.


err...

her accusers/implicators consist of banned athletes/convicts ( including a mexican who by his own testimony of drug-trafficking ) warrants jail time

all liars with an agenda ?

you said it !

On July 8, Hunter testified before the San Francisco federal grand jury that is investigating the BALCO case. He also has met with USADA, the agency investigating Jones for possible doping violations, but it has not acted on his allegations. Hunter "has cooperated with federal authorities and will continue to do so," said his attorney, Angela DeMent.

Aspects of Hunter's account about Jones and banned substances are mirrored by other evidence allegedly obtained during the BALCO probe.


They tried spinning the C.J. Hunter case out from under him by stating that Hunter:s statements about Marion Jones being a drugs user is in direct contradiction to what her coach, Trevor Graham, had stated, and that Hunter should not be believed. The same Graham who has had 11 (or is that 12) athletes test positive for performance-enhancing drugs, and has been under suspicion for quite some time. Odd that they would attempt to refute Hunter:s testimony based on Graham:s testimony.


banned athlete's testimony v that of a man against whom no one has produced any irrefutable evidence of wrong-doing ???

i'll take the latter every time

I have my opinion, and am sticking with it. You have your own. Nothing I say can or will alter your perception, nor ease you from your steadfast disagreement with my opinion. I am open to your opinion, but it has holes - larger ones than you claim mine does.


don't flatter yourself

you offer circumstantial evidence that doesn't stand up to logical deconstruction

We are both basing our claims off of judicial processes - yours off of concrete, factual information in the form of drugs test results and a polygraph test, mine in the form of trustworthy information provided by individuals under oath who have much more to lose than to gain by being untruthful in making those statements.


trustworthy ???

from banned athletes/convicts

don't make me laugh !

Some ask folks here to let the judicial process determine Jones guilt - whether that process is whole or may need some work. They ask folks to trust in the judicial process, citing that due process is to be provided accused athletes.

When that process begins to display a very clear demonstration of wrongdoing and guilt - not by association, but by testimony made during the course of that due process - some are very, very, very slow to acknowledge that one of the folks sitting under the heat lamp in that dark, cold room filled with cigarette smoke just may be telling the truth.


more polemic

but as usual, you offer nothing irrefutable

Their excuse: Marion Jones has never failed a drugs test. Has anyone considered that by the time the 2:nd test was conducted, trace amounts of EPO may have become even more diverse, leaving a disparity between results?


clutching at straws...

we're back to infallibility of catlin's lab
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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:22 pm

eldrick, I can only shake my head and smile. You:ve passed "go" without taking a look at what was on the block.

You believe Marion Jones has not been pinned by the federal government just yet because of a lack of evidence. Suppose, if you will - I know this is hard for you, but try - that there is something more complex to this situation which takes years to sift through and which to penalise.

Don:t think for a minute that Victor Conte:s short prison term at family camp and his written plea to the US President didn:t have anything to do with one another. I believe Conte had something he could offer up in the form of valid proof of a greater wrong-doing, and that he was made an example (prison) while still being a valuable source (hence the nature of his prison stay and short-term sentence).

No connection between Graham and any of his 11-12 positives? eldrick, you:re no ostrich... you can:t stand tall and keep your head that far in the sand. Or, are you sinking to a new low? You:re above that, sir.

And, yes, as far as Catlin:s lab is concerned, there is breaking news you should read. My theory looks even more logical now than when I simply thought aloud yesterday.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:51 am

EPelle wrote:eldrick, I can only shake my head and smile. You:ve passed "go" without taking a look at what was on the block.

You believe Marion Jones has not been pinned by the federal government just yet because of a lack of evidence. Suppose, if you will - I know this is hard for you, but try - that there is something more complex to this situation which takes years to sift through and which to penalise.


you're insulting our intelligence

they had enough evidence to nail kelli/tim from the get go

3y later with marion...& nothing

what nonsense are you going to come up with now ?

evidence so complex that the best investigative brains in the country can't decipher it in 3y ???

is it going to take them 10 ? 100 ? 1000y ??? before they're confident the evidence will stick ???

Don:t think for a minute that Victor Conte:s short prison term at family camp and his written plea to the US President didn:t have anything to do with one another. I believe Conte had something he could offer up in the form of valid proof of a greater wrong-doing, and that he was made an example (prison) while still being a valuable source (hence the nature of his prison stay and short-term sentence).


see above

conte is supposedly part of the evidence

his evidence whacked kelli/tim immediately

3y down the line, it's got nowhere with marion

No connection between Graham and any of his 11-12 positives? eldrick, you:re no ostrich... you can:t stand tall and keep your head that far in the sand. Or, are you sinking to a new low? You:re above that, sir.


offer me concrete, not circumstantial

And, yes, as far as Catlin:s lab is concerned, there is breaking news you should read. My theory looks even more logical now than when I simply thought aloud yesterday.


what ?

stuff like 170 steps involved, each being crucial to a correct result ?!

difficulty in interpreting borderline cases ?!

& catlin claimed despite all this , he never got an epo test wrong !!!
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Postby EPelle » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:09 am

eldrick, prove - since you enjoy concrete evidence - to me any one, single CAS case where the steps and procedures employed by the UCLA centre have directly or indirectly violated a stated step, maneuver, process, measurement, method or policy by which it is required to stringently follow. When you come up with this proof, I will allow for Catlin:s team:s fallibility.

Regarding Conte: have you never considered there may be more complexities behind the scenes which we just do not see? The time involved is insignificant, as bringing down the BALCO-connected folks still outside of the federal grip can take a complex network of associates giving in to the greater good of the process - rather than holding on to their own simple historical achievements made under falsehoods...perhaps the long wait is to continue getting support to bench a person like Barry Bonds instead of some of the smaller fish who died before they were netted out of the water.

Kelli White spoke, and no one believes. CJ Hunter spoke, and he:s now a liar - the same truth-teller Marion Jones wanted us to believe in 2000. Tim Montgomery spoke, and he, too, is a bastard child, a liar and a fool, no?
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Postby eldrick » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:24 am

EPelle wrote:eldrick, prove - since you enjoy concrete evidence - to me any one, single CAS case where the steps and procedures employed by the UCLA centre have directly or indirectly violated a stated step, maneuver, process, measurement, method or policy by which it is required to stringently follow. When you come up with this proof, I will allow for Catlin:s team:s fallibility.


eh ???

sum total of ALL steps/procedures/measurements/etc is the final test result

one was wrong, so steps/procedures/measurements/etc involved in it had error

that's CONCRETE !

Regarding Conte: have you never considered there may be more complexities behind the scenes which we just do not see? The time involved is insignificant


nonsense

how long ?

1000y ???



as bringing down the BALCO-connected folks still outside of the federal grip can take a complex network of associates giving in to the greater good of the process - rather than holding on to their own simple historical achievements made under falsehoods...perhaps the long wait is to continue getting support to bench a person like Barry Bonds instead of some of the smaller fish who died before they were netted out of the water.


nonsense

usatf/iaaf are only interested in marion, NOT bonds

they want the case concluded against "their" athlete - just like the feds gave them evidence to nail tim/kelli

any semi-intelligent person can conclude that after 3y of investigation, feds have nothing on marion

mlb can make their own arrangements with the feds for evidence against bonds

Kelli White spoke, and no one believes. CJ Hunter spoke, and he:s now a liar - the same truth-teller Marion Jones wanted us to believe in 2000. Tim Montgomery spoke, and he, too, is a bastard child, a liar and a fool, no?


you're ranting

thiat is not an argument
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Postby EPelle » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:43 am

Catlin claimed to have not had a positive test turn up negative. What is hard to understand about that? Review every large newspaper:s account of this testing, and you:ll see a pattern: It is VERY RARE that a "B" sample negates the findings provided by the "A" sample. How rare, one asks?

Let:s see: Hmmm... a total of a handful times according to Arne Ljungqvist, who:s been in the business some 30-odd years. Wow, not enough? Only one athlete in the history (six years) of testing for this drug, EPO, has been falsely accused in this sport. We know why. Demonstrate to me through any documented proof that the methods employed in Los Angeles were the same as those in Germany, or that the staff in Los Angeles has been discredited in CAS cases due to incompetency.

Catlin:s claim was valid.

I:m ignoring the Marion Jones road with you on purpose - not for reasons of not having anything to offer you. Let Gatlin offer information on Trevor Graham and have his sentence reduced.

If Gatlin decides to turn over any pertinent information linking himself to Trevor Graham or Victor Conte, then that ensures by default what Victor Conte stated on a written, unsent record to the US drugs authorities - namely that he had provided Gatlin testosterone drugs - is true and accurate.

You want to discredit the test due to a discrepancy in the tests? Then discredit your line of thinking if Conte is linked to Gatlin.

What then will that do to open your eyes to the possibility that what others have stated - without taped wire-tap confessions - may be true? Nothing.

There is a tremendous amount of time involved in reconstructing the past, eldrick, and neither you nor I know what is in the vault for later use. Why are the feds waiting? They:re going to connect the dots and demonstrate that they have reasons to keep their jobs by taking down all key figures in this BALCO mess in one fell swoop.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:29 am

EPelle wrote:Catlin claimed to have not had a positive test turn up negative.


err...

now we have marion's case : +ve test turn up -ve

is this not getting thru to you ?

What is hard to understand about that? Review every large newspaper:s account of this testing, and you:ll see a pattern: It is VERY RARE that a "B" sample negates the findings provided by the "A" sample. How rare, one asks?

Let:s see: Hmmm... a total of a handful times according to Arne Ljungqvist, who:s been in the business some 30-odd years. Wow, not enough? Only one athlete in the history (six years) of testing for this drug, EPO, has been falsely accused in this sport. We know why. Demonstrate to me through any documented proof that the methods employed in Los Angeles were the same as those in Germany, or that the staff in Los Angeles has been discredited in CAS cases due to incompetency.


i'm not interested in a erman lab

i'm interested in catlin's lab

he screwed up

Catlin:s claim was valid.


nonsense

it obviously seems marion's case has gone thru one ear & out the other without registering on you

I:m ignoring the Marion Jones road with you on purpose - not for reasons of not having anything to offer you. Let Gatlin offer information on Trevor Graham and have his sentence reduced.


gatlin was still in college when marion left trevor

you expect me to wait with bated breathe on 3y ole 2nd hand testimony ???

If Gatlin decides to turn over any pertinent information linking himself to Trevor Graham or Victor Conte, then that ensures by default what Victor Conte stated on a written, unsent record to the US drugs authorities - namely that he had provided Gatlin testosterone drugs - is true and accurate.


3y ole 2nd hand testimony

You want to discredit the test due to a discrepancy in the tests? Then discredit your line of thinking if Conte is linked to Gatlin.


now you're getting desperate

that's a gigantic if

What then will that do to open your eyes to the possibility that what others have stated - without taped wire-tap confessions - may be true? Nothing.


bring in your hearsay into court, without anything irrefutable & see how many minutes it takes a high-powered lawyer to tear it to shreds

There is a tremendous amount of time involved in reconstructing the past, eldrick, and neither you nor I know what is in the vault for later use. Why are the feds waiting? They:re going to connect the dots and demonstrate that they have reasons to keep their jobs by taking down all key figures in this BALCO mess in one fell swoop.


nonsense

it took them a few weeks to nail tim/kelli

please explain why they didn't take marion down then ???

i'm waiting...
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Postby EPelle » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:32 am

eldrick, you:re excellent at picking apart what others write, but I don:t see substance in what you are refuting.

What is not getting through to you is that Gatlin turned up at Graham:s door against the advice of Gatln:s agent. Period. If there is a connection, what shall you say, then? Or do you simply overlook that fact that Justin Gatlin:s name was on a document prepared by Victor Conte, and on its way to an authority? For the same substance for which he has tested positive?

Marion Jones is stated as having been a recipient and user of EPO - by three people who know her personally, not professionally or casually. She has a scare with a test for the same drug.

Coincidence? Come on, man.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:04 am

EPelle wrote:What is not getting through to you is that Gatlin turned up at Graham:s door against the advice of Gatln:s agent. Period. If there is a connection, what shall you say, then? Or do you simply overlook that fact that Justin Gatlin:s name was on a document prepared by Victor Conte, and on its way to an authority?


from the convict who claims to have supplied drugs to everyone from jesse owens to the friendly neighbourhood racoon...

For the same substance for which he has tested positive?


which can also be ordered by anyone with 30 bucks & an internet connection

Marion Jones is stated as having been a recipient and user of EPO - by three people who know her personally, not professionally or casually. She has a scare with a test for the same drug


who are these 3 ???
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Postby EPelle » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:08 am

Wow, eldrick... the oxygen must be thinning as you approach 6.000m of altitude here. Breathe in, breathe out. But you already know that.
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