i'm late to the earlier discussion but i have found that in competition-intensity runs beyond 800m, i perform much better with minimal arm movement, straight trunk, hips tucked under, and a kind of relaxed mechanical leg turnover with minimal 'up and down' motion. in fact, when first beginning to run mile-and-up distances, my times went down considerably due to these changes after having rather stalled previously -- i do believe there is something to the saving of energy from unnecessary arm movements. Especially for someone like myself who is rather large of build in the arms/upper torso (at 6' 190) , where the weight is significant (unlike say, your average Kenyan).
In the sprints, I found arm strength and 'pumping' of the arms to assist in the racing, to the point of being a necessity to attain maximum speeds.
i am not surprised that a completely relaxed arm style may work for the mechanics of some runners, however awkward it may look..
basehead617 wrote:i'm late to the earlier discussion . . .
There is something I like about that turn of phrase.
As for your discussion about arm movement, I have always been under the assumption that, for distance runners, pretty much whatever feels relaxed and natural is best. Assuming that the dead-arms-hanging-down look feels natural and relaxed, all the power to you (and her). But it looks baaaaad . . .
interesting that tergat ran 5 mins. slower than his best in the marathon but complained he was sore. shouldnt he be able to run a min. slower than his best for 10,000 the day after? come on tergat show us a 27:29
Why would we not believe it? Do you have any additional information, or do you just think all Chinese are liars? Since you are many thousands of miles away from China and have offered only a sarcastic rhetorical question, I guess we should assume the latter.
gh wrote:Important to note that the IAAF suspended Naroz. anyway, despite her ex-husband's "confession."
and then they re-instated her under the unusual circumsatances rule.
And quite right too! Does anyone really think we should ban people who have drugs put into their body against their knowledge?
Remember that the burden of proof is on the athlete to show that the drugs entered their system without their knowledge and the authorities are not naive - it's not enough to simply not ask what is in a pill or drink, for example - we are talking about people who have had food and drink maliciously spiked!
I am bemused as to how people who so distrust athletes can ever enjoy the sport.
Kobayashi wrote:do you just think all Chinese are liars?
I think that is a bit broad. How about "do you think all athletes who get a positive drugs test are liars?".
This is true in academics too. I have caught students cheating red handed but they go into their "I deny it, I deny it, I deny it, your word against mine", mode. Not to mention that they ALWAYS have an excuse. They learn it from professional athletes and professional politicians. It is todays culture. Big buisness will become even more corrupt in the future if this is what i am seeing in the class room. Same for sports.
Of course they all deny it and the majority are banned anyway. We are talking about a very few who not just deny it but offer a specific excuse, which they must then *proove* to the authorities.
Thus, to disbelieve Sun Yingjie here is to claim that *all* those involved - her, the guy who confessed and a bunch of officials - are part of a conspiracy. There is no reason to suppose this from thousands of miles away except racism.
Kobayashi wrote:I am bemused as to how people who so distrust athletes can ever enjoy the sport.
And this is going to be a big problem in the future. In the last issue of T&FN there was a long time subscriber who wrote about the reasons he was not going to renew his subscription. Basically it was because he no longer enjoyed the sport since he did not know who was clean and could not enjoy the great performances anymore. This is a big problem for tracks popularity.
Daisy wrote:This is just the pattern that we see for all athletes that get caught. Cynical yes, racism no.
No, it's not. The 'pattern' is that athlete gets caught and denies ever having taken any drugs ever. We all laugh at such denials.
This is different. She has PROVEN that she did not knowingly take in drugs. She isn't just claiming it, she's produced proof and convinced the authorities. She hasn't denied that the drugs were there, or claimed some odd medical history. This also explains how she passed another test a few days earlier.
False positives are a really big deal. We should be *really* sympathetic to anyone forced to go through such an ordeal. I know someone who was once falsely accused of rape - their accuser was actually prosecuted for wasting police time but this didn't stop the 'no smoke without fire' bastards from driving him out of town.
So, I ask again - what reason does anyone have to doubt this story? Cynicism won't wash - this is not the normal pattern of denial. We have nothing but the linked report to go on. Eliminate all other reasons and we are left with: Chinese are all cheating bastards and an official conspiracy is just what we expect from them. Racism, in other words.
Kobayashi wrote:Chinese are all cheating bastards and an official conspiracy is just what we expect from them. Racism, in other words.
I think you are putting words into peoples mouths here. Bauman got the same treatment. This is justified cynicism. I'm really surprised you see it as racism, that had never crossed my mind reading this thread.
Racism? You would have got the same LOL response had it been an athlete from Britain, Ireland, USA or anywhere else caught. The excuses these drug cheats come up with are hilarious. And do we have reason to believe China has a bit of history in the juicing arena? Duh...
IT'S NOT JUSTIFIED BECAUSE SHE'S NOT JUST *CLAIMING* TAMPERING, SHE'S *PROVEN* IT!
Jeez. Sorry to shout, I just seem to be having trouble getting my point across. Had Baumann produced good evidence (which seems to mean someone confessing) then we'd not have laughed at him.
This is *not* a normal case, it's a case of an athlete *proving* that they have been falsely accused. To disbelieve this one muct argue that the person who 'fessed up and the authorities are in on the conspiracy. What possible reason is there to believe this?
Kobayashi wrote:So, I ask again - what reason does anyone have to doubt this story? Cynicism won't wash - this is not the normal pattern of denial. We have nothing but the linked report to go on. Eliminate all other reasons and we are left with: Chinese are all cheating bastards and an official conspiracy is just what we expect from them. Racism, in other words.
You are way off base here - racism has zip to do with it. No one believed the drug-in-toothpaste story a few years back either. Cynicism is the natural response to any 'they spiked my stuff' story, period.
Kobayashi wrote:So, I ask again - what reason does anyone have to doubt this story?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 487733.htm QUOTE from October
"That was my third consecutive title at the Beijing Marathon Championship. I was so excited that I took this excitement to Nanjing" Sun said in an interview with Sports Daily. "My alert level was lower. That is lethal to athletes of my kind," she said, explaining why she took water from an unknown stranger.
Sun's coach had explained that the scandal happened because Sun received a bottle of water from a stranger two hours before the 10,000-meter race during warm-ups.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 504321.htm QUOTE from the Dec article posted above
Yu Haijiang, who used to train with Sun together, confessed that he added banned steroid to Sun's drink on December 16, one day before the women's 10,000-meter race at the National Games.
So why did she get a drink from a stranger? From the later article it sounded as if Yu spiked HER drink? Of course with out the transcripts one doesn't know the exact story but it sounds a lot like someone spiked my toothpaste. Or I had beer and sex before the test.
marknhj wrote:Racism? You would have got the same LOL response had it been an athlete from Britain, Ireland, USA or anywhere else caught. The excuses these drug cheats come up with are hilarious. And do we have reason to believe China has a bit of history in the juicing arena? Duh...
I give up. You are no different to the people who drove the falsely accused rapist I mentioned out of town. To you, Sun Yingie is Chinese and as such not worthy your trust. You disgust me.
Kobayashi wrote:This is *not* a normal case, it's a case of an athlete *proving* that they have been falsely accused. To disbelieve this one muct argue that the person who 'fessed up and the authorities are in on the conspiracy. What possible reason is there to believe this?
Now I understand. You are saying we think the guy that fessed up to spiking her drink is lying. As a matter of fact I do think it is convenient that one of her former training partners fessed up. do we know they had split on bad terms and they had a grudge? No that is what they want us to think. So yes I am cynical about this story. Yes I think he may lie to protect the star athlete from that training group.
Same with the Greek duo. I think the doctors in the hospital were in on the scam. Does that make me a racist against Greeks too? In this world people lie ALL the time. It is not racist to think someone might be lying.
Just out of interest do you know have more information about this case? You seem very sure that she is innocent and to be honest there is not that much information on her case in the two links above.
Last edited by Daisy on Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kobayashi wrote:To you, Sun Yingie is Chinese and as such not worthy your trust. You disgust me.
To me, Sun Yingie is a busted drug cheat and as such not worthy of my trust. Her being Chinese has zip to do with it. I'll wait until the IAAF/WADA/CAS folks buy off on this story before I trust her again, fair enough?
Wow. Go for a run and all hell breaks loose. Of course I don't think that all Chinese are liars but do I think that the billion or so that live there are ruled by a government that isn't exactly open. Liars by omission so to speak. Why don't they have open access to the internet, for starters. They have already proven what they will do with the truth so throw a ridiculous story out there that I wouldn't buy coming from ANYONE like this one and, no, I don't believe it. I can't believe that I have to spell it out. The rest of you have all veered off topic, IMHO.
I can assure you that there is zero racism going on here. After 9000 posts (MJD) one's belief system is pretty evident, and I've probably read over 8000 of them . That's not him, nor anyone else posting here. I would love to believe Sun, but we've simply had too many Guilties with total denial. Of course she can not PROVE her innocence, no more that Marion Jones can (whom I STILL believe in). I'm glad YOU believe in Sun, but it really should not surprise you that others don't. I'm such a Pollyanna, I choose to reserve judgement (for which I am always ridiculed! ). Don't take this stuff so personally.
I say this cautiously and carefully, and with all due respect. The "r" word is used altogether too often these days. It DOES describe certain real attitudes or opinions, but it does not describe ALL attitudes and opinions that we may disagree with. When someone is accused of being a racist, I'm reminded of 17th century New England and the women accused of being witches. "You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"
Kobayashi wrote:...This is different. She has PROVEN that she did not knowingly take in drugs. She isn't just claiming it, she's produced proof and convinced the authorities....We have nothing but the linked report to go on.
If we have "nothing but the linked report to go on", how does this PROVE anything - guilt or not?