eldrick wrote:coachy, from physics, i'm sure the arm-down cadence must be energy saving - if we can find the wt. of the average arm, assume it's centre of mass goes up by ? 10cm with the classic style & this occurs every 2s ( 1s for each arm )
if sun coud run 30'00 with an assumed classic style, her total energy output of just running woud be ~ 0.5*m*(10,000/1800)^2*1800 = 27,777*m J
now, if she cuts out the arm action, you coud save yourself some valuable energy, which you coud use to run faster:
maybe an arm is worth (1/40)*m ( ? ) - have to look this up
if this (1/40)*m is raised by 0.1m every 2s for 30'00, then the energy expended is 1/40*m*0.1*(1800/2)*9.8 for each arm, which we can double for 2 arms, giving us 44.1*m J
add this to 27,777*m J & we get
27,821.1*m J, giving us a revised time with "no arms" of...
~ 29'58.6
err... probably not much better
Most of this went right under my head. 8)
Joke: A Statistician is someone who is good with numbers but doesn't have the personality to become an accountant.
Isn't all this arm shit trivialising an important issue? Assuming she's guilty, this will have big ramifications on Chinese athletics. They know that the eyes of the world are on them all the way until 08, the timing couldn't have been worse.
Vern wrote:Isn't all this arm shit trivialising an important issue? Assuming she's guilty, this will have big ramifications on Chinese athletics. They know that the eyes of the world are on them all the way until 08, the timing couldn't have been worse.
What else can we do????
I feel sick and enraged every time I hear about another doping case in my beloved sport.
I coach teenagers who are becoming pretty damn cynical about ever making it to the top. A litle ridicule isn't a bad thing.
I know most people here do not trivalize the issue.
Mojo,
I know what you mean, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. But if she didn't have her unique style, how many of us would bother posting on this topic?
China can ill afford another doping scandal - one must just hope this is an isolated case, and that they can move on. But when the largest nation on this planet has a credibility issue 3 years before the Olympics.....
I think we would be commenting even without her unique running style. Running a world class marathon and then a 10K garners attention!
I actually feel a little sorry for her. Apparently she is from a very poor family. Her life sounds dreadful to me- so much running can not be enjoyable or healthy and then taking drugs. Her body will pay a price and now she has the humiliation to live with.
Don't get me wrong I am glad she was caught(if the second sample comes back positive) and I hope this is an isolated event.
I want China to feel the eyes of the world are them and they are suspicious eyes- maybe that will keep things on the up and up.
Speaking of emulations, on the drive from Salem, OR back to the Bay Area yesterday, in an attempt to keep from getting drowsy, I tried emulating Bob Dylan’s intonations while singing Rolling Stones songs. It kinda sounded like a mix of Katherine Hepburn and Ferris Bueller’s buddy Cameron when he calls the principal on the phone pretending to be Sloan’s dad. I was quite amused.
"An American runner who has recently spent time training and racing in China observed that "their efforts are going to make Balco look like kids playing with a chemistry set in comparison."
"An American runner who has recently spent time training and racing in China observed that "their efforts are going to make Balco look like kids playing with a chemistry set in comparison."
I noticed that, too, but this quote doesn't make much sense to me. Assuming the Chinese have huge-scale research programs looking for better dope, would they let an American visitor (a potential rival) see them or know about them?
Last edited by Powell on Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
As a Democratic (forgive me), I am not prone to conspiracy theories. However, I see this as China using the athlete as a sacrificial lamb. Offering her up will serve to show their "serious approach" to catching cheaters. Karl Rove would be proud! There is little chance that most of the sport's insiders would be able to consider her marathon/10K double wihtout a few pounds of salt and an armload of asterisks. Color me suspicious.......
"An American runner who has recently spent time training and racing in China observed that "their efforts are going to make Balco look like kids playing with a chemistry set in comparison."
Kevin Richardson wrote:As a Democratic (forgive me), I am not prone to conspiracy theories. However, I see this as China using the athlete as a sacrificial lamb. Offering her up will serve to show their "serious approach" to catching cheaters.
those were my first thoughts too..... scape goat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kevin Richardson wrote:As a Democratic (forgive me), I am not prone to conspiracy theories. However, I see this as China using the athlete as a sacrificial lamb. Offering her up will serve to show their "serious approach" to catching cheaters.
those were my first thoughts too..... scape goat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe someone in the Chinese federation doesn't like that straight-arm look either . . .
Damned if they do and damned if they don't... Of course if nobody of note tested positive, everyone would suspect the Chinese are covering up positive tests.
Just to change the topic slightly - I've been thinking of Sun's marathon/10000 double and whether it really is as unbelievable as everyone thought. It certainly would be if she came close to her 10000 PR the day after the marathon, but the fact is she was nearly a minute off. Maybe it's not that strange after all, especially if she held back a bit in the marathon knowing she had to race again so soon.
I'm pretty sure if you took Paula Radcliffe in her 30:01/2:15 form, she would have been able to run a faster two-day double.
Powell wrote:I'm pretty sure if you took Paula Radcliffe in her 30:01/2:15 form, she would have been able to run a faster two-day double.
But Yingjie isn't a 2:15/30:01 athlete. She came within two minutes of her best in the marathon, and was then just a few seconds behind the OG Champ in the 10km. Yes, it wasn't an amazing time, but you can bet the last couple km were at a hot pace – it would have taken some effort to keep up with that.
Jon wrote:But Yingjie isn't a 2:15/30:01 athlete. She came within two minutes of her best in the marathon, and was then just a few seconds behind the OG Champ in the 10km. Yes, it wasn't an amazing time, but you can bet the last couple km were at a hot pace – it would have taken some effort to keep up with that.
But who's to say she wasn't in the best shape of her life (as the Chinese usually are at the National Games)? Radcliffe wasn't always a 2:15/30:01 athlete, either.
Powell wrote:But who's to say she wasn't in the best shape of her life (as the Chinese usually are at the National Games)? Radcliffe wasn't always a 2:15/30:01 athlete, either.
Her performances throughout the year kinda show that she wasn't in 2:15/30:01 form, let alone the shape of her life. And if she had managed to get into such form within the space of a couple months, then that in itself would have been ban-worthy!
(Re Paula: yes, she got into that shape after years of gradual progression.)
Jon wrote:Her performances throughout the year kinda show that she wasn't in 2:15/30:01 form...And if she had managed to get into such form within the space of a couple months, then that in itself would have been ban-worthy!
Not the type of post I'd expect from a professional Athletics' journalist. Utter rubbish, in fact. Meanwhile, Radcliffe's entire career is brought up to explain how she went from being thrashed in Leiria to WC gold in the space of a few months. Oh, I get it, Helsinki was her main aim. Now what was the year aim of that Chinese runner person?
Consistency, please.
I have to get my inhaler, now. Off for a training run...
Jon wrote:Her performances throughout the year kinda show that she wasn't in 2:15/30:01 form...And if she had managed to get into such form within the space of a couple months, then that in itself would have been ban-worthy!
Not the type of post I'd expect from a professional Athletics' journalist. Utter rubbish, in fact. Meanwhile, Radcliffe's entire career is brought up to explain how she went from being thrashed in Leiria to WC gold in the space of a few months. Oh, I get it, Helsinki was her main aim. Now what was the year aim of that Chinese runner person?
Consistency, please.
SC, the first part of my post is simple fact – it's obvious that Sun wasn't/isn't in 2:15/30:01 shape this year. The second part of my post was sarcastic and I can't take the blame for you failing to notice that.
I'll ignore your anti-Paula comment, as it's the usual rubbish I've come to expect from you and is not worth answering. If you want to find out what happened to her in Leiria, then read the new chapters in the re-release of her book because I can't be bothered to regurgitate it all here.
Oh, by the way – there's no apostrophe at the end of "Athletics".
There, is that more along the lines of what you'd expect from a journo?
Jon wrote:SC, the first part of my post is simple fact – it's obvious that Sun wasn't/isn't in 2:15/30:01 shape this year.
Sun's never been in 2:15/30:01 form. Ever. But then neither was Radcliffe this year. So if improving within a couple of months is a bannable offence...
Jon wrote:I'll ignore your anti-Paula comment, as it's the usual rubbish...
What "usual rubbish"?
Jon wrote:If you want to find out what happened to her in Leiria, then read...
No thanks. Has Sun got a book to tell us why she isn't in 2:15 shape, or what happened earlier in the season? Would it matter? No, because she's Chinese.
slowcoach wrote:Sun's never been in 2:15/30:01 form. Ever.
Correct.
slowcoach wrote:But then neither was Radcliffe this year.
Correct
slowcoach wrote:So if improving within a couple of months is a bannable offence...
Incorrect (Remember, that comment of mine was tongue-in-cheek and wasn't meant to be taken literally).
Either way, even if Paula was in the shape of her life (2:15/30), I still strongly doubt she'd be able to put together a 2:21/31:00 performance within the space of two days. She's said on many occasions that the day after a marathon, her body is completely beat up and aching, etc, and she just does very light work.
slowcoach wrote:No thanks. Has Sun got a book to tell us why she isn't in 2:15 shape, or what happened earlier in the season? Would it matter? No, because she's Chinese.
I'm still reserving judgement on Sun's case as the results of her B sample hasn't even come back yet. But if she did release a book, or even an in-depth explanation in the press, etc, then yes, I would be interested in reading it.
Last edited by Jon on Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jon wrote:Either way, even if Paula was in the shape of her life (2:15/30), I still strongly doubt she'd be able to put together a 2:21/31:00 performance within the space of two days. She's said on many occasions that the day after a marathon, her body is completely beat up and aching, etc, and she just does very light work.
After a 2:15, certainly she would be beat up. But assuming she was in 2:15 shape and only ran a 2:20 to conserve energy for the next day, wouldn't you say it would be a different story?
Jon wrote:Either way, even if Paula was in the shape of her life (2:15/30), I still strongly doubt she'd be able to put together a 2:21/31:00 performance within the space of two days. She's said on many occasions that the day after a marathon, her body is completely beat up and aching, etc, and she just does very light work.
After a 2:15, certainly she would be beat up. But assuming she was in 2:15 shape and only ran a 2:20 to conserve energy for the next day, wouldn't you say it would be a different story?
as a long distance runner for over 40 years i think 26 x 1 mile in 5:25 with no rest in between would take most of the starch out of even the great paula's legs. paula would normally go out for an easy 5 mile jog-run before a championship 10,000 and the 26 x 5:25 would be quite a differant story.
Powell wrote:After a 2:15, certainly she would be beat up. But assuming she was in 2:15 shape and only ran a 2:20 to conserve energy for the next day, wouldn't you say it would be a different story?
Whether you run a 2:15 or a 2:20, your body is still going to be beaten up! The body would have gone through 26.2 miles of quick-paced miles either way.
