Sun Yingjie fails doping test


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Postby EPelle » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:26 am

Flumpy wrote:Oh please. The old Narozilenko excuse. I don't think anyone is going to fall for that again.

Hopefully not... Baumann:s story released 00.01.12.
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Postby kuha » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:37 am

MJD wrote:Hands up everyone who believes that.


Given the subject in question here, I find this hilarious! My hat's off to MJD for his sly sense of humor...

And, no, my hands are not up...
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Postby gh » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:13 pm

Important to note that the IAAF suspended Naroz. anyway, despite her ex-husband's "confession."
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Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:21 am

gh wrote:Important to note that the IAAF suspended Naroz. anyway, despite her ex-husband's "confession."



and then they re-instated her under the unusual circumsatances rule

i seem to remember LaVonna Martin using the same excuse. her coach put them in her supplemants. and she escaped a ban.
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Postby Kobayashi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:39 am

MJD wrote:Hands up everyone who believes that.


Why would we not believe it? Do you have any additional information, or do you just think all Chinese are liars? Since you are many thousands of miles away from China and have offered only a sarcastic rhetorical question, I guess we should assume the latter.
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Postby Kobayashi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:47 am

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:Important to note that the IAAF suspended Naroz. anyway, despite her ex-husband's "confession."


and then they re-instated her under the unusual circumsatances rule.


And quite right too! Does anyone really think we should ban people who have drugs put into their body against their knowledge?

Remember that the burden of proof is on the athlete to show that the drugs entered their system without their knowledge and the authorities are not naive - it's not enough to simply not ask what is in a pill or drink, for example - we are talking about people who have had food and drink maliciously spiked!

I am bemused as to how people who so distrust athletes can ever enjoy the sport.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:49 am

Kobayashi wrote:do you just think all Chinese are liars?

I think that is a bit broad. How about "do you think all athletes who get a positive drugs test are liars?".

This is true in academics too. I have caught students cheating red handed but they go into their "I deny it, I deny it, I deny it, your word against mine", mode. Not to mention that they ALWAYS have an excuse. They learn it from professional athletes and professional politicians. It is todays culture. Big buisness will become even more corrupt in the future if this is what i am seeing in the class room. Same for sports.
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Postby Kobayashi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:52 am

Of course they all deny it and the majority are banned anyway. We are talking about a very few who not just deny it but offer a specific excuse, which they must then *proove* to the authorities.

Thus, to disbelieve Sun Yingjie here is to claim that *all* those involved - her, the guy who confessed and a bunch of officials - are part of a conspiracy. There is no reason to suppose this from thousands of miles away except racism.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:54 am

Kobayashi wrote:There is no reason to suppose this from thousands of miles away except racism.

I beg to differ. This is just the pattern that we see for all athletes that get caught. Cynical yes, racism no.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:58 am

Kobayashi wrote:I am bemused as to how people who so distrust athletes can ever enjoy the sport.

And this is going to be a big problem in the future. In the last issue of T&FN there was a long time subscriber who wrote about the reasons he was not going to renew his subscription. Basically it was because he no longer enjoyed the sport since he did not know who was clean and could not enjoy the great performances anymore. This is a big problem for tracks popularity.
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Postby Kobayashi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:04 am

Daisy wrote:This is just the pattern that we see for all athletes that get caught. Cynical yes, racism no.


No, it's not. The 'pattern' is that athlete gets caught and denies ever having taken any drugs ever. We all laugh at such denials.

This is different. She has PROVEN that she did not knowingly take in drugs. She isn't just claiming it, she's produced proof and convinced the authorities. She hasn't denied that the drugs were there, or claimed some odd medical history. This also explains how she passed another test a few days earlier.

False positives are a really big deal. We should be *really* sympathetic to anyone forced to go through such an ordeal. I know someone who was once falsely accused of rape - their accuser was actually prosecuted for wasting police time but this didn't stop the 'no smoke without fire' bastards from driving him out of town.

So, I ask again - what reason does anyone have to doubt this story? Cynicism won't wash - this is not the normal pattern of denial. We have nothing but the linked report to go on. Eliminate all other reasons and we are left with: Chinese are all cheating bastards and an official conspiracy is just what we expect from them. Racism, in other words.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:12 am

Kobayashi wrote:Chinese are all cheating bastards and an official conspiracy is just what we expect from them. Racism, in other words.

I think you are putting words into peoples mouths here. Bauman got the same treatment. This is justified cynicism. I'm really surprised you see it as racism, that had never crossed my mind reading this thread.
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Postby marknhj » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:17 am

Racism? You would have got the same LOL response had it been an athlete from Britain, Ireland, USA or anywhere else caught. The excuses these drug cheats come up with are hilarious. And do we have reason to believe China has a bit of history in the juicing arena? Duh...
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Postby Kobayashi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:18 am

IT'S NOT JUSTIFIED BECAUSE SHE'S NOT JUST *CLAIMING* TAMPERING, SHE'S *PROVEN* IT!

Jeez. Sorry to shout, I just seem to be having trouble getting my point across. Had Baumann produced good evidence (which seems to mean someone confessing) then we'd not have laughed at him.

This is *not* a normal case, it's a case of an athlete *proving* that they have been falsely accused. To disbelieve this one muct argue that the person who 'fessed up and the authorities are in on the conspiracy. What possible reason is there to believe this?
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:19 am

Kobayashi wrote:So, I ask again - what reason does anyone have to doubt this story? Cynicism won't wash - this is not the normal pattern of denial. We have nothing but the linked report to go on. Eliminate all other reasons and we are left with: Chinese are all cheating bastards and an official conspiracy is just what we expect from them. Racism, in other words.

You are way off base here - racism has zip to do with it. No one believed the drug-in-toothpaste story a few years back either. Cynicism is the natural response to any 'they spiked my stuff' story, period.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:19 am

Kobayashi wrote:So, I ask again - what reason does anyone have to doubt this story?


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 487733.htm
QUOTE from October
"That was my third consecutive title at the Beijing Marathon Championship. I was so excited that I took this excitement to Nanjing" Sun said in an interview with Sports Daily. "My alert level was lower. That is lethal to athletes of my kind," she said, explaining why she took water from an unknown stranger.

Sun's coach had explained that the scandal happened because Sun received a bottle of water from a stranger two hours before the 10,000-meter race during warm-ups.
END QUOTE

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 504321.htm
QUOTE from the Dec article posted above
Yu Haijiang, who used to train with Sun together, confessed that he added banned steroid to Sun's drink on December 16, one day before the women's 10,000-meter race at the National Games.
END QUOTE

So why did she get a drink from a stranger? From the later article it sounded as if Yu spiked HER drink? Of course with out the transcripts one doesn't know the exact story but it sounds a lot like someone spiked my toothpaste. Or I had beer and sex before the test.
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Postby Kobayashi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:21 am

marknhj wrote:Racism? You would have got the same LOL response had it been an athlete from Britain, Ireland, USA or anywhere else caught. The excuses these drug cheats come up with are hilarious. And do we have reason to believe China has a bit of history in the juicing arena? Duh...


I give up. You are no different to the people who drove the falsely accused rapist I mentioned out of town. To you, Sun Yingie is Chinese and as such not worthy your trust. You disgust me.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:26 am

Kobayashi wrote:This is *not* a normal case, it's a case of an athlete *proving* that they have been falsely accused. To disbelieve this one muct argue that the person who 'fessed up and the authorities are in on the conspiracy. What possible reason is there to believe this?

Now I understand. You are saying we think the guy that fessed up to spiking her drink is lying. As a matter of fact I do think it is convenient that one of her former training partners fessed up. do we know they had split on bad terms and they had a grudge? No that is what they want us to think. So yes I am cynical about this story. Yes I think he may lie to protect the star athlete from that training group.

Same with the Greek duo. I think the doctors in the hospital were in on the scam. Does that make me a racist against Greeks too? In this world people lie ALL the time. It is not racist to think someone might be lying.

Just out of interest do you know have more information about this case? You seem very sure that she is innocent and to be honest there is not that much information on her case in the two links above.
Last edited by Daisy on Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:27 am

Kobayashi wrote:To you, Sun Yingie is Chinese and as such not worthy your trust. You disgust me.

To me, Sun Yingie is a busted drug cheat and as such not worthy of my trust. Her being Chinese has zip to do with it. I'll wait until the IAAF/WADA/CAS folks buy off on this story before I trust her again, fair enough?
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Postby MJD » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:31 am

Wow. Go for a run and all hell breaks loose. Of course I don't think that all Chinese are liars but do I think that the billion or so that live there are ruled by a government that isn't exactly open. Liars by omission so to speak. Why don't they have open access to the internet, for starters. They have already proven what they will do with the truth so throw a ridiculous story out there that I wouldn't buy coming from ANYONE like this one and, no, I don't believe it. I can't believe that I have to spell it out. The rest of you have all veered off topic, IMHO.
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Postby marknhj » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:42 am

You disgust me.
>>>

Seems a bit harsh...BTW - Bauman went as far as actually juicing his wife in his pathetic attempt to get off.
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Postby tafnut » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:15 am

Kobayashi,

I can assure you that there is zero racism going on here. After 9000 posts (MJD) one's belief system is pretty evident, and I've probably read over 8000 of them :shock: . That's not him, nor anyone else posting here. I would love to believe Sun, but we've simply had too many Guilties with total denial. Of course she can not PROVE her innocence, no more that Marion Jones can (whom I STILL believe in). I'm glad YOU believe in Sun, but it really should not surprise you that others don't. I'm such a Pollyanna, I choose to reserve judgement (for which I am always ridiculed! :D ). Don't take this stuff so personally.
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Postby kuha » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:31 am

I say this cautiously and carefully, and with all due respect. The "r" word is used altogether too often these days. It DOES describe certain real attitudes or opinions, but it does not describe ALL attitudes and opinions that we may disagree with. When someone is accused of being a racist, I'm reminded of 17th century New England and the women accused of being witches. "You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:45 am

kuha wrote:"You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"

Are you suggesting that we have MJD go through 'trial by ordeal'?
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Postby EPelle » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:50 am

Kobayashi wrote:...This is different. She has PROVEN that she did not knowingly take in drugs. She isn't just claiming it, she's produced proof and convinced the authorities....We have nothing but the linked report to go on.

If we have "nothing but the linked report to go on", how does this PROVE anything - guilt or not?
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Postby tafnut » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:51 am

Daisy wrote:
kuha wrote:"You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"

Are you suggesting that we have MJD go through 'trial by ordeal'?


Dunk him, dunk him, dunk him! If we put him in the basket and dunk him for 2 or 3 minutes and he doesn't drown, he's INNOCENT. But if he does drown, well then, he just got what he deserved, huh?! :twisted:
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Postby kuha » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:56 am

Well, going with the popular consensus, I say, hell yeah, DUNK HIM!
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:57 am

tafnut wrote:
Daisy wrote:
kuha wrote:"You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"

Are you suggesting that we have MJD go through 'trial by ordeal'?

Dunk him, dunk him, dunk him! If we put him in the basket and dunk him for 2 or 3 minutes and he doesn't drown, he's INNOCENT. But if he does drown, well then, he just got what he deserved, huh?! :twisted:

You got that all mixed up tafnut. If he doesn't drown he is GUILTY. If he drowns he must have been innocent.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:03 pm

Daisy wrote:
tafnut wrote:
Daisy wrote:
kuha wrote:"You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"

Are you suggesting that we have MJD go through 'trial by ordeal'?

Dunk him, dunk him, dunk him! If we put him in the basket and dunk him for 2 or 3 minutes and he doesn't drown, he's INNOCENT. But if he does drown, well then, he just got what he deserved, huh?! :twisted:

You got that all mixed up tafnut. If he doesn't drown he is GUILTY. If he drowns he must have been innocent.[/quote

i am all for dunking. i always root for the angry mob carring torches rather then the frightened monster. BUT we can not dunk MJD! why you ask? cause where he dwells everything is bloody frozen solid!! :twisted:
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Postby tafnut » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:05 pm

Daisy wrote:You got that all mixed up tafnut. If he doesn't drown he is GUILTY. If he drowns he must have been innocent.


Really? Man, that's tough - survive and THEN they drown you for being guilty! :o
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Postby EPelle » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:09 pm

But Kobayashi llives thousands of miles from MJD, so he won:t be able to throw the first stone...lob the first pitch.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:13 pm

marknhj wrote:You disgust me.
>>>

Seems a bit harsh...BTW - Bauman went as far as actually juicing his wife in his pathetic attempt to get off.


hey kob. calling someone a racist is a horrible, evil charge. your willing to believe she's innocent with very little real evidence of any kind. which is fine. but at the same time your willing to label people here as racist without a shred of evidence except they disagree with you!!

p.s. you dont disgust ME. but i DO think you might want to reconsider the racist charge unless you have real proof.
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:17 pm

squackee,

Great reply to the 'racist' charge !!
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Postby gh » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:32 pm

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:Important to note that the IAAF suspended Naroz. anyway, despite her ex-husband's "confession."



and then they re-instated her under the unusual circumsatances rule


I could be wrong, but believe they had no choice because a Soviet court ruled that the 4-year ban was excessive.
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Postby mojo » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:45 pm

Daisy wrote:
kuha wrote:"You're not a witch? Well, prove it!"

Are you suggesting that we have MJD go through 'trial by ordeal'?



Why not have him do one of Geb's workouts BEFORE we dunk him????
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Postby EPelle » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:49 pm

Mojo, that would be too easy for MJD.
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Postby kuha » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:18 pm

I've heard from a very reliable source that MJD had Geb in tears after one workout...something like 33 miles at 4:25 pace, followed by repeat miles on the track in 4:02, 4:00, 3:58, and 3:55...all, of course, at 11,000 ft. altitude. Whew!
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Postby tafnut » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:26 pm

kuha wrote:I've heard from a very reliable source that MJD had Geb in tears after one workout...something like 33 miles at 4:25 pace, followed by repeat miles on the track in 4:02, 4:00, 3:58, and 3:55...all, of course, at 11,000 ft. altitude. Whew!


When MJD comes back from a workout, he's not spitting blood, he's spitting FIRE! :o

P.S. I bet if we tried, we could do a whole thread about MJD's workouts, like they have about Jason Rexing over at letsrun!
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:43 pm

tafnut wrote:
kuha wrote:I've heard from a very reliable source that MJD had Geb in tears after one workout...something like 33 miles at 4:25 pace, followed by repeat miles on the track in 4:02, 4:00, 3:58, and 3:55...all, of course, at 11,000 ft. altitude. Whew!


When MJD comes back from a workout, he's not spitting blood, he's spitting FIRE! :o

P.S. I bet if we tried, we could do a whole thread about MJD's workouts, like they have about Jason Rexing over at letsrun!


well... i hear tell some climbers saw him a doin repeat hill sprints up mt. everest. blood coming out of his ears and fire outta his ass. i suspect this is an exaggeration.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:48 pm

SQUACKEE wrote: i suspect this is an exaggeration.

Lies?
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