That is pretty good. It sounds like it was a clean as opposed to a power clean, meaning he dropped under it (below parallel). Even 396 x 3 is good, but much easier to believe than 400 x 5 POWER CLEAN.
Some throwers power clean/power snatch, while others go under the weights in (squat) cleans and (full/(squat) snatches.
I would guess we had a half-dozen or less lifters who might do 396 x 3 cleans. Some can clean more than they can jerk. Maybe 1 - 3 who could clean 396 x 5, none that could power clean it x 5 right now.
Looks like we are getting closer to it but we still don't know exactly at what height he caught it. Again some people define a power clean as anything caught higher than "butt to heels"!
weightlifter, I'm sorry that my description of legs straight but unlocked caused confusion. It is not really contradictory. Firstly, nobody in their right mind would catch a weight with knees locked - at least not if they love their collar bones and spine! Secondly, I was trying to differentiate between maximal functional height and the many indeterminate lower positions (120deg, 90deg, 60deg) that seem to qualify as "power" positions to various people.
So how best to describe both elements? Straight as possible, standing at your fullest height without having your knees locked so that there is some capacity for the legs to act as shock absorbers AFTER you catch the weight. So maybe not 180deg but 178? It sure is easier to just show somebody!
Eldrick - In a clean, be it power or squat, the bar ceratinly never goes over the head. That would be a clean and jerk that you are talking about Lara doing. Of course he would also have done a squat clean.
I don't need any video to know that a clean does not go overhead. IF you think a clean goes overhead and must be held for a down signal and be under control, then you don't understand that cleans are not a competition lift in the Olympics or any international competitions. Pablo Lara did not compete in "clean" competitions. Nor, for that matter, are they the subject of any national competitions in the US.Also, there are no "green lights" in weightlifting. White lights are good, red lights are not good, 2-1 prevails.
Have you ever attended any weightlifting competitions?
How strange for eldrick to go off on a tangent on something he knows nothing about... Of course weightlifter is right. This thread is only about the C of C&J.
Tell you what, eldrick, if you don't think a couple of degrees make any difference, jump down from a foot high box and land with you knees very slightly bent. See,no problem, shock absorbed. Now try it again with your knees locked. No need to report back on the outcome, I have the image already in my brain...
Shotputters are well knwon to have huge cleans. Ryan Whiting, latest 70 footer in HS in America said first hand that he has powercleaned 405lbs, and he is just 19 now. Trust me, most putters are stronger than their own countries olympic lifters, after Shane Hamman, that would be the case in the USA. Ulf Timmerman said on the ring that Sergei Smirnov clean and jerked 230kg. I'm still in High School and have 145kg.
Eldrick, Lara was an awesome physical specimen, trust me, his form was not exactly great, ESPECIALLY on powercleans, still awe inspiring.
Big Macca - 405 would be a very impressive power clean for any thrower. For a high school thrower, it would stretch credulity a little for me. When Al Fuerbach (ranked # 1 in the world in 1974) won the Sr. National WL Championships in 1974 he clean and jerked 418. This was a squat clean; he had pretty good technique. I saw him compete several times. I think he was throwing close to 70 feet then.
Sam Walker, who, I think, threw a little farther than Ryan Whiting in high school, made the Olympic WL team some years later and (squat) cleaned and jerked 462 at the Olympic Trials. This might equal about 400 - 420 power clean for most. It should also be remembered that this was a different era, also.
Shane Hamman, right now, at 350+ and with 10- 15 years of weight training, most at a high level of either power or Olympic lifting, could probably power cleean 410-425 (give or take 3-5%). HE squatted 1008 in competition.
There are no 20 and under weightlifters in the US competing who can power clean CLOSE to 405. In fact, there may never have been any.
All of this does not mean it did not happen. It does mean that one might be a little bit skeptical. Many, many times in my life I have seen weights misloaded or miscalculated, especially when kgs. are involved.
ON its face, it would seem diificult to think that a high schooler with, assumedly, poorer technique, out power cleaned world # 1 ranked Fuerbach, and was right there with Walker and Hamman today( - he did 476 c&j 2 1/2 weeks ago), both Olympians with many, many more years of training with weights, and fairly good technique.
IF you are in high school, maybe you should think about giving O-lifting a try. If you reach 150 - 155 or more power clean x 2 or 3 in high school, maybe you could work the jerk and snatch and make our Jr. world team which goes to China next year, I think, after S. Korea this year.
Weightlifter, I know it sounds hard to believe, I'm sure if you can get hold of Ryan he would confirm it. He was asked by a few guys at Outdoor nationals and he said 405 with a 700 squat. I have no problem believing that.
I have just started weightlifting this year in the winter, problem is I don't live in the USA
Thank you, Big Macca. I would question the 700 (parallel or below) squat even more. It may well be that he has stated that he power cleans 405 or more. Although I am not from Missouri, he would have to show me both the 405 and the 700.
I can remember once reading in Sporting News about a high school guy weighing in the 160's benching around 500. I told them that was above the world record. Their response was, "Well, that is what he told us."
I am sure he can do big weights. Although I am not from Missouri, he would have to show me. If he can do that much now, one would think he will do 450 - 500 power clean (or more) after 4-5 years of training in college, and maybe squat 850- 1,000. Post -collegiate - maybe 500-550 power clean and 1000+ squat. Then,if he does not make the Olympic team throwing, he can always make the Olympic team as a lifter if he can jerk what he can power clean or more. Maybe he could even make both teams as Gary Gubner almost did.
Well, I am from Missouri, or if you have lived there for a few years, Misery....and I think that a 400 clean is not out of the question......I was an average thrower (58/189) and I had a power clean best of 320 lbs....no wrist wraps....my teammate, Ernie Poole from Sedalia, MO, cleaned 350 with wraps.....so 400+ for a great thrower does not seem too out of line......
Again, we are talking about a 405 POWER CLEAN by someone in high school. The % difference between a 350 (squat) clean and a 405 power clean is the difference between a 50 foot high school women's throw and a 65 foot throw. A 350 clean equals about a 300 - 310 power clean. Or, a 160 high school women's discus discus throw and a 210 throw. Big, big difference.
As I said, there has never been a 20 and under weightlifting competitor in the US who could power clean 405, to my knowledge. It is possible that he can, with less training and (assumedly) poorer technique, out power clean any 20 and under lifter ever in USA history, and possibly by 5%- 10%. I would just have to see it. There are hundreds of runners have run a 10.5 or under 100 meters. Drop down 15% to 9.75 or below and look at the difference. See my earlier posts re: Fuerbach and Walker.
Ryan Whiting is from PA and being so well know, I doubt he would lie about his lifts. I know another HS putter who has 60 feet who can do 675 on squat.Jimmy Pacifico has thrown 62 and he's 16-17 and has a 700 PL squat. Trust me, the olympic lifters really aren't the strongest guys in the olympic lifts as we think. www.longandstrong.com , Ryans coaches email is on there and I'm sure he'll be willing to confirm his lifts.
As I said, if I can clean 320 and throw the 11lb ball just over 60, and seeing Whitings form (no offense but it could be better), its not hard to believe such numbers for a 70 foot 12lb putter.
Of course you don't seem to want to believe that. There ARE freaks out there that don't oly lift competitively and lift huge.
Big Macca - Have any of these lifters done their squats in competition? As far as what is parallel (or below), just because a lifter or a coach says it is doesn't make it so. If you think so, what about the 40 times some coaches put out?
However, I thank you for your thoughts.
AS to whom do they cheat...... no one per se. However, there are people out there who may be comparing themselves to standards that are misleading. That is, if one is doing a legitimate parallel squat with 500 in high school and someone else claims 700, that may make you think that you are not training properly, etc.
Some throwers do compete formally, with others perhaps in high school competing informally, many in Fla. competing scholastically. A few who have competed on a fairly high level in O. lifting: Gubner,Wilhelm, Walker, Marx, Semkiw,Fuerbach, Jerry Clayton (at Auburn), and, I am sure, others. I know several throwers who are top 1-3 in their state who have competed. Some have powerlifted (Jon Cole, George Frenn, and, I am sure, others).Maybe someone will get video or pics of the 700/405 at some point. I would also be interested in those who have seen those.
AS to throwers who have lifted and competed, I left out Ken Patera. Also, I watched Brian Oldfield compete in the mid-70's. I think he power cleaned and jerked a little over 300 lbs. That puts the 405 in perspective. I also think that it was Richard (?) Marks, not Marx.
The number of people in the world who can back squat to parallel or below, 700 lbs.,with no wraps, no suits, and who are who are, and have always been, CLEAN, are limited, in my opinion. THose who have done over 800 squat to parallel CLEAN AND ALWAYS CLEAN, NO WRAPS, NO SUITS, ETC., ARE VERY, VERY LIMITED.
Also, if Ryan Whiting's 405 (?) power clean was caught as El Toro described (very little bend in the knees, caught at almost straight legs height), that might be the equivalent of a 465-485 full clean. Olymic lifters would catch powers much lower than that on PR's, but would still figure 10%-15% if they went all the way under. I am not sure Shane Hamman (today) would catch 405 on only slightly flexed knees - almost no bend. Almost certainly not much more than 425, if that.
No one said he caught it with nearly straight legs. He said he powercleaned 405, even if it is a borderlien squat clean, so what? I know olympic lifters who clean 500 and have 580 butt to ground squats. It is not hard to imagine at all for a high school senior. Thinking of olympic lifters as the only guys who can clean huge is outdated, there are many freaks not doing full olympic lifting training. I should technically be able to squat clean 170-180kg, but I can only do 145, cause the technique is not there.
Big Macca, Deitmar - Sotomayor's 660 claim is again difficult to believe, assuming parallel or below. At the IPF World Powerlifting Championships last year, the first place winner did 715 squat in the 181 3/4 lbs. class, third place winner did 693, and 5th place winner did 572! So, Sotomayor out squatted him pretty easily (by 88 lbs!) even though the powerlifter had suits, wraps, etc. Seems a little strange.
I know now(from Big Macca) that 405 power clean fora high schooler is very believable, throwers lift much more than Olympic lifters, etc. Could you name me 3-5 of the guys you have seen clean over 500? Are they clean? I would guess that few, if any, have ever cleaned over 500 and have always been clean. Maybe you have found several, though. I have never seen a big guy, such as one would be if cleaning 500+, go low enough to touch his butt in a squat, much less a clean, and I have watched many films and a few world championships and Olympics in lifting, and have watched many top throwers lift, also. None went that low in a clean. How many weightlifting meets have you watched?
It is true we don't know how low that he supposedly went on the 405. Somewhere between slight bend and butt touching, although butt touching would not be a power clean. I would be surprised if he goes much, if any, below parallel.
Again, maybe someone can get some film of him power cleaning over 400. Maybe he is up to 410-420 by now. I would sure like to see it. When a thrower in high school, albeit a very talented one, has done 5% - 10%+% more than any 20 and under weightlifter in USA history, without concentrating on lifting per se, it ought to raise some red flags. It could be true; I would just like to see it or talk to some with WL knowledge who have seen it. Just like the Sotomayor claim to out squat the 5th best in the world by 88 lbs. There may well be some who believe that, also.
I'm sure Soto did squat with 300kg or close to it. But this would have been only for the extension range used in the high jump take off about 10-12 degrees. I don't think this would be out of this world for an elite jumper. If he had to go to parrallel, then half that would be believable.
Again, big macca, Whiting probably did move 405lbs off the floor and get it close to his shoulders but that does not equate to a strict power clean which is caught standing up at your full height.
I have seen a sequence of Anatoly Pisarenko doing a proper power clean supposedly as part of a set of 3 fast singles(not a triple but only 15-20s rest). This was at a championship training hall so he was in peak shape. It didn't look that easy but this seems about right for an elite lifter(120kg bwt, 260 C&J) not subject to random testing.
I'm with weightlifter- a schoolboy almost certainly never did a power clean but I am willing to be proved wrong by competitive endeavour or even a video(as long as he doesn't use Golds Gym photoshoot weights )
El Toro - It sounds to me like you know what you are talking about, although I am not that familiar with this forum and with you. Like you, I would be willing to be proven wrong, and could be. In my lifetime, I have usually seen claims that seem to be way out prove to be untrue more often than not.
Your thoughts on Sotomayor sound reasonable. When publications like SI use such outlandish numbers without looking into them, it really illustarates the problem.
Again, a high school young man doing at least 95% of what 350 lbs. Shane Hamman, 2 time Olympic WL team member, could do today after maybe close to 15 years of training, 1008 squat, dunk a tennis ball at 5 feet 9 inches? Possible, but not a given at all. I would have to see more proof.
Weightlifters being clean drug wise? What are you naive?
This is ridiculous, please email Tony Thompson at www.longandstrong.com and ask him about Ryans lifting, because it is pointless arguing with you. He said POWER CLEAN, what is it with you guys saying he probably high pulled it etc? Enough of this rubbish.
A powerclean is technically caught above parallel, El Toro, why are you making up this straight legged stuff? A powerclean is today know as I said, that is how all athletes do them. I bet SHane Hamman could PC 200kg+, hell half his cleans are caught above parallel anyway. Besides, the throwers don't train the squat clean at all, if Hamman just trained the squat clean, he would probably lift more.
See, there are different training goals in mind that need to be taken into account.
Rick saw Mike clean 500 with straps and 540 on
video (which he thinks Randy Barnes has a copy
of this video lift). Mike tossed a lot of
overweight shots in the off season and once
raced Andre Carson (a NCAA champ sprinter)
and kept up with him for the first 40 yards.
Rick promises us more in the future.
I trained with Australian Shot Putter Justin Anlezark for a few years and have witnessed him benching 560lbs and half squatting 660lbs
I have also trained with Stuart Rendell who has squatted, ATF 660lbs
i myself class myself as very weak and have power cleaned 360lbs
i trained at Boise State University ands watched Tyrone Nelson (?) a 19.8x thrower do hang clean reps on 395lbs
a good friend of mine watched Luis Meliz full squatting about 600lbs+ in the late 90s, i think meliz was still a junior at the time.
Last edited by Rufus Cookie on Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Big Macca - Just to correct you and the facts. Please show me where I alleged that all lifters were clean? Indeed, I made the point that lifters in the 70's, and before were from a different era. Now top lifters are tested at random as well as at competitions. There is still little doubt that the world's best lifters are FAR from 100% clean.
I do not know about Stulce's 235 power clean. I would have to see it, but don't say it is impossible. It is a lot more than Hamman and Patera if it was a power clean. If it was a full, then maybe right in there with them, especially assuming that he might have done more in a competition setting.
Maybe you forgot to mention the guys you know who clean (power clean?) over 500. The guys that are mentioned in the previous posts are not high schoolers, either.
Big Macca - What event was he in? What is his best clean? I have seen Shane lift more than a dozen times, and train that many times or more. I would say that his cleans (in competition)are definitely not caught above parallel, as a general rule. AS I stated earlier, big guys usually don't go as low.
Personally, I could easier believe a gold medalist in his late 20's or 30's doing 500 than a high schooler doing 405. The extra 10 years or so of training makes a difference.