A Vault of Cheats


Forum devoted to track & field items of an historical nature.

A Vault of Cheats

Postby parkerclay » Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:51 pm

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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby luv2run » Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:25 pm

Except that Lewis' and others "positives" were not positives at the time. The only person who did not seem to hear the news is this idiotic blogger (and Dick Pound).
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:26 pm

is it really that idiotic a suggestion? why then have womens progression stagnated completely since 1988? any good reasons or explanations? I would certainly be interested to hear how none of the sprint records have suddenly not been threatened for the last ten years at least......has this ever happened before in history that performances stagnate in this manner? what about the Stasi files?? and about Lewis, this info about the dodgy dealings which many whispered about for many years only recently came to light..........of course nobody had any idea that anyone other than Charlie Franicis's team of clenbuterol stuffed athletes were the only ones on dope at those Seoul Games.

idiot indeed..........think about it, whose the idiot????
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby Jon » Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:35 am

>is it really that idiotic a suggestion? why then
>have womens progression stagnated completely
>since 1988? any good reasons or explanations? I
>would certainly be interested to hear how none of
>the sprint records have suddenly not been
>threatened for the last ten years at
>least......has this ever happened before in
>history that performances stagnate in this
>manner? what about the Stasi files?? and about
>Lewis, this info about the dodgy dealings which
>many whispered about for many years only recently
>came to light..........of course nobody had any
>idea that anyone other than Charlie Franicis's
>team of clenbuterol stuffed athletes were the
>only ones on dope at those Seoul Games.

idiot
>indeed..........think about it, whose the
>idiot????



"luv2run" isn't doubting anything about the women's side of things - they are merely saying that at the time, there wasn't many positive tests (in relation to how many there should have been).

Also, your statement that women's progression stagnating is wrong. If you look at the site: http://digilander.libero.it/rzocca/ he charts progression of each event. If you look at the following graph:


http://digilander.libero.it/rzocca/women/w100m.gif


you'll see that women's 100m is slowly improving year by year. Here is a quote from Ronaldo Zocca:

"The rate of improvment over the 25 years has been 11.5 msec/year (equivalent to 0,128% of the world record). We can compare it with the men's rate of improvement which is only 9.8 msec/year (equivalent to the 0,100% of the world record). So we can say that women are improving faster then men. If we split the analysis in two periods 75-88 and 89-99 we see that the rate of improvement during the first period was 25.2 msec/year and 13.4 msec/year during the second, both better then the overall value. The trick is in the loss of about 140 msec between 1988 and 1989 in part due to the retirement of Florence Griffith after the Olympic Games of Seoul."


With the women's 200m, the progression is less steady, peaking in 1988 (for obvious reasons), but still, slightly improving year by year even after then. The women's 400m shows a similar pattern. The women's hurdles events (also "sprint" events) both show steady progression.

One thing I should mention is that Ronaldo Zocca hasn't published any research after 2000. I'm sure he has the figures, but they are not yet up on the site.

So women's progression hasn't "completely stagnated" at all.

And it's not like the women's sprint world records haven't been challenged at all in the past ten years. OK, Flo-Jo's record is still 0.16 ahead of Marion, but three of the four all-time fastest 100m times have been set in the past ten years. 21 of the top 30 100m performances were all set within the past ten years.

Also, the nearest threat to Flo-Jo's 200m world record came in the form of Marion's 21.62 - also within the last ten years.

At the Seoul Games, I seriously doubt that Charlie Francis' group were the only ones to have been suspected of "dodgy things". Of course, it all became clearer in 1989 when random drug testing was introduced, but the GDR, Soviets and USA teams were still suspected of being "unclean" by fans of the sport at the time of the Seoul Games.

Nobody is doubting for one second that the whole GDR doping regime never happened, nor is anyone pretending that the 80's (in particular 1988) were just regular years, in terms of athletic performances. I do, however, believe that people want to move on and look to the future, instead of dwelling on the past and wishing that the "tainted" records were all wiped. Eventually, those records will get broken. It could take 20, 30 or even 50 years. Who knows...? It could even take just one year! Everyone has heard enough of what happened 15-20 years ago, so it's time to move on.
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:37 am

Ignoring the vitriol for a sec - I love the site listed because it has some great videos of classic races, esp. Ashford over Gohr in Zurich in 10.77.
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby huh? » Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:06 am

>>Nobody is doubting for one second that
the whole GDR doping regime never happened<<

Quite to the contrary. Everyone doubts that it never happened. Or, otherwise put, nobody doubts that it ever happened. Everyone believes it happens.

Block that triple negative!!!!!!!!
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby Guest » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:49 am

I'm not sure your charts prove your point. Even the chart author apparently questions at least Flo Jo. The point is that the spikes seen around about 1988 are clearly aberrant. The eyewitness evidence of Flo's change in appearance is the most damning, and it still seems amazing she was never caught.
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby Jon » Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:43 am

>I'm not sure your charts prove your point. Even
>the chart author apparently questions at least
>Flo Jo. The point is that the spikes seen around
>about 1988 are clearly aberrant. The eyewitness
>evidence of Flo's change in appearance is the
>most damning, and it still seems amazing she was
>never caught.


I'm not questioning the Flo-Jo issue whatsoever. I'm sure I share the same views re: Flo-Jo as any other clued-up T&F fan.

The original remark was that the progression in women's sprints has completely stagnated. The charts prove that this is untrue, as (even after 1988) there is a slope in the line graph. That was merely the point I was making.
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:58 am

Flo-Jo didn't race in Europe between the trails and Games. The officials at USOT and Games didn't want the negative publicity of busting her. I'm sure there was some deal made that she would retire.
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Re: A Vault of Cheats

Postby gm » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:19 am

> The eyewitness
>evidence of Flo's change in appearance is the
>most damning, and it still seems amazing she was
>never caught.

Yeah, I have NEVER seen anyone have any body changes after a change in training regimen. Are we really supposed to believe that someone can actually look more muscular if they start lifting weights? Ludicrous.
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