Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games


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Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby BillVol » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:10 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/07/opinion/granderson-anti-gay-russian-olympics/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29

Columnist LZ Granderson says Dean Cromwell pulled our two Jewish sprinters out of the Berlin games. Is this true? I always figured it was Avery Brundage who made that call.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bambam » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:30 am

It probably wasn't Brundage, who was USOC President and AAU President but not the coach. I've heard Cromwell but some people also implicate Lawson Robertson.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby BillVol » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:58 am

bam, wasn't Brundage IOC president at the time? Edit: Henri de Baillet-Latour was IOC head during Berlin games.

Disappointing if Cromwell did that move on his own with no pressure from alleged bigots like Brundage.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby nunusguy » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:27 am

Recently, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry received a letter from 88 members of Congress -- Republicans and Democrats -- urging him to do something to guarantee the safety of LGBT Americans visiting Russia during that time. That leaves 447 lawmakers we should be asking why they did not sign that letter.
******
Looks like this is what the article is all about. We will see how far they are willing to push the Russkies on the issue of admitting Gays into the competition ?
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby Powell » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:57 am

We will see how far they are willing to push the Russkies on the issue of admitting Gays into the competition ?


The gay rights issue in Russia is serious enough as it is; there's no reason to bring up imaginary concerns here. Who said they are not going to allow gay athletes to compete in the Games?
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby user4 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:22 am

On the positive and historical side... Marty Glickman was one fantastic athlete. Had he focused more on football would he have been an NFL legend ?
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby CookyMonzta » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:11 pm

user4 wrote:On the positive and historical side... Marty Glickman was one fantastic athlete. Had he focused more on football would he have been an NFL legend ?

What were Glickman's PRs in the indoor 55m/60y and outdoor 100y/100m/110y and 200m/220y? Did he ever try a 400m/440y or an indoor 300y?
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby user4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:23 am

CookyMonzta wrote:
user4 wrote:On the positive and historical side... Marty Glickman was one fantastic athlete. Had he focused more on football would he have been an NFL legend ?

What were Glickman's PRs in the indoor 55m/60y and outdoor 100y/100m/110y and 200m/220y? Did he ever try a 400m/440y or an indoor 300y?


I am pretty sure that Glickman was quite an elite caliber dasher at 60 yards. Im going to guess that it meant about a 6.2 in that era. As a short dasher he likely would have been even with the great Jesse Owens at that distance. Of course allot can happen between 60 yards and 100m.

Glickman was an all american ball carrier for Syracuse, one can easily see why.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bambam » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:00 am

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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby mrbowie » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:33 am

Growing up in Los Angeles (I was born in 1943), Glickman was definitely part of the lore of sports on our radar.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby PDJ551 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:36 pm

In the early 1960s there were a succession of indoor track meets at Madison Square Garden. In addition to the Millrose Games there were the Knights of Columbus Games and the New York A.C. Meet. They were televised on a local NY station and coverage lasted for hours. Marty Glickman was the announcer. He was all over the place. He identified all the runners and thoroughly described each event. He conducted post event interviews as well. At that time I knew little about him but I was impressed with his knowledge and enthusiasm. I hope many watch the HBO documentary on him.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby catson52 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:09 pm

A lot of outrage expressed over this matter, and rightly so. I note that in the 4 x 100m relay in the 1932 Los Angeles Olympic final, USA decided to leave out Eddie Tolan and Ralph Metcalfe, the gold and silver medalists from the open 100 m, and easily the two best runners present there.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:44 am

catson52 wrote:A lot of outrage expressed over this matter, and rightly so. I note that in the 4 x 100m relay in the 1932 Los Angeles Olympic final, USA decided to leave out Eddie Tolan and Ralph Metcalfe, the gold and silver medalists from the open 100 m, and easily the two best runners present there.


Im not so sure. Looking through the 1920s we see that sometimes the top dashers are included in the relay and sometimes they are not. For instance Schultz and Paddock are on the 4X1 relay squad in 1920 but the 1924 team did not include either of them. There may have been a "spread the wealth around" mentality. Nevertheless considering that Metcalfe was robbed of gold in the 200m if anyone should have been anchoring that 4X1 it was him.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bekayne » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:55 pm

user4 wrote:
catson52 wrote:A lot of outrage expressed over this matter, and rightly so. I note that in the 4 x 100m relay in the 1932 Los Angeles Olympic final, USA decided to leave out Eddie Tolan and Ralph Metcalfe, the gold and silver medalists from the open 100 m, and easily the two best runners present there.


There may have been a "spread the wealth around" mentality.

Yeah, I've read somewhere that that was the policy back then.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby no one » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:58 am

quote from Glickman, from: United State Holocaust Memorial Museum

"In the entire history of the modern Olympic Games, now going into its 100th year, no fit American track and field performer has ever not competed in the Olympic Games except for Sam Stoller and me — the only 2 Jews on the 1936 team.

I was always aware of the fact that I am a Jew, never unaware of it, under virtually all circumstances. Even in the high school competitions, and certainly at college and for the Olympic team, I wanted to show that a Jew could do just as well as any other individual no matter what his race, creed, or color, and perhaps even better.

The Olympic stadium itself is a very impressive place. It was particularly impressive then, filled with 120,000 people. When Hitler walked into the Stadium, stands would rise, and you'd hear it in unison, "Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil," all together, this huge sound reverberating through the stadium.

Everyone seemed to be in uniform. As for banners and flags, they were all over the place, dominated by the swastika. The swastika was all over. On virtually every other banner we saw, there was a swastika. But this was 1936, this was before we really got to know what the swastika truly meant.

There was antisemitism in Germany. I knew that. And there was antisemitism in America. In New York City, I was also aware of the fact that there were certain places I was not welcome. You went into a hotel, for example, and you'd see a small sign where you registered which read "Restricted clientele," which meant, in effect, no Jews or Blacks allowed. ... cont
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby no one » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:58 am

quote from Glickman, from: United State Holocaust Memorial Museum

"In the entire history of the modern Olympic Games, now going into its 100th year, no fit American track and field performer has ever not competed in the Olympic Games except for Sam Stoller and me — the only 2 Jews on the 1936 team.

I was always aware of the fact that I am a Jew, never unaware of it, under virtually all circumstances. Even in the high school competitions, and certainly at college and for the Olympic team, I wanted to show that a Jew could do just as well as any other individual no matter what his race, creed, or color, and perhaps even better.

The Olympic stadium itself is a very impressive place. It was particularly impressive then, filled with 120,000 people. When Hitler walked into the Stadium, stands would rise, and you'd hear it in unison, "Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil," all together, this huge sound reverberating through the stadium.

Everyone seemed to be in uniform. As for banners and flags, they were all over the place, dominated by the swastika. The swastika was all over. On virtually every other banner we saw, there was a swastika. But this was 1936, this was before we really got to know what the swastika truly meant.

There was antisemitism in Germany. I knew that. And there was antisemitism in America. In New York City, I was also aware of the fact that there were certain places I was not welcome. You went into a hotel, for example, and you'd see a small sign where you registered which read "Restricted clientele," which meant, in effect, no Jews or Blacks allowed. ... cont
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby no one » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:58 am

quote from Glickman, from: United State Holocaust Memorial Museum

"In the entire history of the modern Olympic Games, now going into its 100th year, no fit American track and field performer has ever not competed in the Olympic Games except for Sam Stoller and me — the only 2 Jews on the 1936 team.

I was always aware of the fact that I am a Jew, never unaware of it, under virtually all circumstances. Even in the high school competitions, and certainly at college and for the Olympic team, I wanted to show that a Jew could do just as well as any other individual no matter what his race, creed, or color, and perhaps even better.

The Olympic stadium itself is a very impressive place. It was particularly impressive then, filled with 120,000 people. When Hitler walked into the Stadium, stands would rise, and you'd hear it in unison, "Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil," all together, this huge sound reverberating through the stadium.

Everyone seemed to be in uniform. As for banners and flags, they were all over the place, dominated by the swastika. The swastika was all over. On virtually every other banner we saw, there was a swastika. But this was 1936, this was before we really got to know what the swastika truly meant.

There was antisemitism in Germany. I knew that. And there was antisemitism in America. In New York City, I was also aware of the fact that there were certain places I was not welcome. You went into a hotel, for example, and you'd see a small sign where you registered which read "Restricted clientele," which meant, in effect, no Jews or Blacks allowed. ... cont
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby no one » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:00 am

... The event I was supposed to run, the 400-meter relay, was one of the last events in the track and field program. The morning of the day we were supposed to run in the trial heats, we were called into a meeting, the 7 sprinters were, along with Dean Cromwell, the assistant track coach, and Lawson Robertson, the head track coach. Robertson announced to the 7 of us that he had heard very strong rumors that the Germans were saving their best sprinters, hiding them, to upset the American team in the 400-meter relay. Consequently, Sam Stoller and I were to be replaced by Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalfe.

We were shocked. Sam was completely stunned. He didn't say a word in the meeting. I was a brash 18-year-old kid and I said "Coach, you can't hide world-class sprinters." At which point, Jesse spoke up and said "Coach, I've won my 3 gold medals [the 100, the 200, and the long jump]. I'm tired. I've had it. Let Marty and Sam run, they deserve it," said Jesse. And Cromwell pointed his finger at him and said "You'll do as you're told." And in those days, Black athletes did as they were told, and Jesse was quiet after that.

Watching the final the following day, I see Metcalfe passing runners down the back stretch, he ran the second leg, and [I thought] "that should be me out there. That should be me. That's me out there." I as an 18-year-old, just out of my freshman year, I vowed that come 1940 I'd win it all. I'd win the 100, the 200, I'd run on the relay. I was going to be 22 in 1940. I was a good athlete, I knew that, and 4 years hence I was going to be out there again. Of course, 1940 never came. There was a war on. 1944 never came."

cut and paste from : http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/onl ... re&lang=en

Unclear whether or not Brundage was behind the scenes (thought the entire text might be important if not [gh] -delete
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby no one » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:19 am

brief perusal of inet info indicates Glickman was furious and Stoller forlorn. Both blamed US Oly higher ups. Glickman visited the German Stadium in the 80s and just walking in unleashed the tremendous anger he had for US Olympic brass.

I too was unhappy that Cromwell was a prominent part of the injustice. Two kids denied their chance at history.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby jeremyp » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:41 am

If I remember correctly in 1964 there was talk of taking out Gerry Ashworth (Jewish) and putting in Henry Carr. As in Berlin it would have been an improvement of the team (speed wise) but the 1st 4 in the trials was kept as a rule. I'm not sure that either decision had a racial overtone. Today Glickman would have been in the heats and still eligible for a gold medal.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby slowcat » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:56 pm

The first four in the event did not apply to the 4 x 400 relay .Henry Carr was the anchor in Tokyo and he did not compete in the 400 trials at LA nor NYC . Actually, he was fourth in the 200 at the finals in LA but had been first at the 'semis' in NYC. Of course , there is lot more to this story. With that said, Carr was probably the best 400 runner in Tokyo.....
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:25 pm

slowcat wrote:The first four in the event did not apply to the 4 x 400 relay .Henry Carr was the anchor in Tokyo and he did not compete in the 400 trials at LA nor NYC . Actually, he was fourth in the 200 at the finals in LA but had been first at the 'semis' in NYC. Of course , there is lot more to this story. With that said, Carr was probably the best 400 runner in Tokyo.....


he may have been the best 400m man in Tokyo but I dont know (doubt) if he would have given the 4x1 a better 2nd leg than Ashworth did. Quite different from the 4x4 where it was a no brainier.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby fasttrak85 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:13 am

no one wrote:brief perusal of inet info indicates Glickman was furious and Stoller forlorn. Both blamed US Oly higher ups. Glickman visited the German Stadium in the 80s and just walking in unleashed the tremendous anger he had for US Olympic brass.

I too was unhappy that Cromwell was a prominent part of the injustice. Two kids denied their chance at history.



This whole story was heartbreaking. Just to think that a sudden decision change and a bizarre chain of events was able to rob a wide eyed 18 year old of one of the biggest accomplishments life had to offer. There are many more stories like this from those years.

I watched a documentary on a female Jewish sprinter who based on her times was favorite for gold in 1936 but was pulled from the national team because of her ethnicity. She also spoke about one of her "female" roomates being very strange and covert in behavior and turned out her strange roommate was a young man. She went back to the stadium at around 85 just to run the race she never got to run with one of her teammates. If I was a cryer I would ball my eyes out watching things like that.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby KDFINE » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:14 am

Fasttrack85. The athlete you just posted about was a high jumper. She'd made it out of Germany to England but pressure was put on her family for her to return home so that the Germans could show that they were allowing Jews the opportunity to compete for berths in the '36 games, which in her case was a cruel facade. She eventually make it out, and I believe would up in Queens, N.Y.C. Her name escapes me. Not only has there been a documentary about her but also a "movie" movie, a few years old, which I believe was a German production.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bambam » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:00 pm

The 1936 German female high jumper who did not get to compete was Gretel Bergmann. She led the German year list that year but was not chosen for the German team - she was Jewish. They already had their token Jew in Helene Mayer, a fencer. They also allowed one Jew to compete at the Winter Games in Garmisch-Partenkirchen that year, Rudi Ball.

The "female" athlete who Bergmann thought was strange was called Dora Ratjen - "she" was actually a male, who the Germans coerced into competing as a woman. His name was long thought to be Hermann Ratjen, but more recent interviews with him have shown it to be Heinrich "Heinz" Ratjen. He was outed in September 1938 shortly after winning the European Championships high jump.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby br » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:07 pm

Gretel Bergmann is still with us. Age 99.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bekayne » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:24 pm

bambam wrote:The "female" athlete who Bergmann thought was strange was called Dora Ratjen - "she" was actually a male, who the Germans coerced into competing as a woman. His name was long thought to be Hermann Ratjen, but more recent interviews with him have shown it to be Heinrich "Heinz" Ratjen. He was outed in September 1938 shortly after winning the European Championships high jump.

Not quite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Ratjen
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bambam » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:50 pm

bekayne wrote:
bambam wrote:The "female" athlete who Bergmann thought was strange was called Dora Ratjen - "she" was actually a male, who the Germans coerced into competing as a woman. His name was long thought to be Hermann Ratjen, but more recent interviews with him have shown it to be Heinrich "Heinz" Ratjen. He was outed in September 1938 shortly after winning the European Championships high jump.

Not quite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Ratjen


Not exactly sure what you meant by not quite, and also not certain what you feel is not correct about the above.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bekayne » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:47 pm

bambam wrote:
bekayne wrote:
bambam wrote:The "female" athlete who Bergmann thought was strange was called Dora Ratjen - "she" was actually a male, who the Germans coerced into competing as a woman. His name was long thought to be Hermann Ratjen, but more recent interviews with him have shown it to be Heinrich "Heinz" Ratjen. He was outed in September 1938 shortly after winning the European Championships high jump.

Not quite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Ratjen


Not exactly sure what you meant by not quite, and also not certain what you feel is not correct about the above.

The part that it was some sort of ruse by the Nazis, when he had in fact been passing as a female all his life.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby fasttrak85 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:14 am

KDFINE wrote:Fasttrack85. The athlete you just posted about was a high jumper. She'd made it out of Germany to England but pressure was put on her family for her to return home so that the Germans could show that they were allowing Jews the opportunity to compete for berths in the '36 games, which in her case was a cruel facade. She eventually make it out, and I believe would up in Queens, N.Y.C. Her name escapes me. Not only has there been a documentary about her but also a "movie" movie, a few years old, which I believe was a German production.



Yes I think you are right. I didnt remember all the details but I could still feel the spirit of the documentary. I remember that she moved to England as well and having family having to escape the holocaust. Very touching story.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby fasttrak85 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:25 am

bekayne wrote:
bambam wrote:
bekayne wrote:
bambam wrote:The "female" athlete who Bergmann thought was strange was called Dora Ratjen - "she" was actually a male, who the Germans coerced into competing as a woman. His name was long thought to be Hermann Ratjen, but more recent interviews with him have shown it to be Heinrich "Heinz" Ratjen. He was outed in September 1938 shortly after winning the European Championships high jump.

Not quite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Ratjen


Not exactly sure what you meant by not quite, and also not certain what you feel is not correct about the above.

The part that it was some sort of ruse by the Nazis, when he had in fact been passing as a female all his life.



Passing? Where? The Braille Society. Here are some pics of "her".

http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/201 ... 610078.jpg

http://historiasdeportivas.files.wordpr ... /dora2.jpg

If this is what use to pass as a German woman then Germany has come along way from then to Heidi Klum.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:21 pm

Re the above, in a bar, at 1:30 am, after 4 or 5 drinks.... you might love " her" !
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby lonewolf » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:59 pm

Is there that much beer in Munich??? :)
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby BillVol » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:47 pm

I actually called Greta Bergmann on the phone a few years ago after seeing a docu on her on TV. There is a thread somewhere on here about that.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby tandfman » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:15 am

BillVol wrote:I actually called Greta Bergmann on the phone a few years ago after seeing a docu on her on TV. There is a thread somewhere on here about that.

It's here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27203&p=383855
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby BillVol » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:02 am

tandfman wrote:
BillVol wrote:I actually called Greta Bergmann on the phone a few years ago after seeing a docu on her on TV. There is a thread somewhere on here about that.

It's here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27203&p=383855


My God, time flies. She was really nice after getting over the surprise of a total stranger from Tennessee calling her.
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby bekayne » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:59 am

fasttrak85 wrote:Passing? Where? The Braille Society. Here are some pics of "her".

http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/201 ... 610078.jpg

http://historiasdeportivas.files.wordpr ... /dora2.jpg


Reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl6z03A5zRs
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby fasttrak85 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:36 am

lonewolf wrote:Is there that much beer in Munich??? :)



All the beer from Oktober fest, St Patricks Day, and Fourth of July since their inception wouldnt be enough!!!!
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby dukehjsteve » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:31 pm

fasttrak85 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Is there that much beer in Munich??? :)



All the beer from Oktober fest, St Patricks Day, and Fourth of July since their inception wouldnt be enough!!!!



Any port in a storm......

At night all cats are gray....
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Re: Jewish sprinters at Berlin Games

Postby lonewolf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:36 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:
fasttrak85 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Is there that much beer in Munich??? :)



All the beer from Oktober fest, St Patricks Day, and Fourth of July since their inception wouldnt be enough!!!!



Any port in a storm......

At night all cats are gray....

Useful cliches but..comes the dawn. :shock: :)
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