JJK vs. Klüft [split]


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JJK vs. Klüft [split]

Postby olorin » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:12 pm

Gabriella wrote:And I believe we have seen athletes more naturally gifted that JJK take gold; namely Kluft and Ennis herself. I don't care for crazy WRs set in the 80s and I certainly don't compare today's stars with those of the 80s; completely different era and ball game.


While I agree with you that there is no point to compare between results in the 80' to results today as they are a different ball game, we can compare between JJK results to other results in the 80' and compare them with Ennis results and nowdays results. This comparison can be made either to other heptathlists or across individual events.

In the first comparison I look at the top ten results of the Heptathlon in the world in the four years that each athlete was at her prime: JJK from 1985-1988, Kluft 2004-2007 and Enis 2009-2012.
1. JJK hold the top 6 results and 7 out of the top 10. A gap of 391 points between her and the second best (Sabine JOHN 6897)
2. Kluft - Top 2 results and 7 out of 10. A gap of 143 points to second place (Barber 6889).
3. Enis - Top 2 results and 5 out of 10. A gap of 75 points to second place (Chernova 6880).

Another way to compare in the see how their results in the individual events. This comparison suffers from the problem that in three events (the SP, JT and 800) the heptathlists are not near the top world level. But, because all three were extremely good in the other four events I think that the comparison is still interesting. So, for each of the three I looked at their peak performance (JJK - Seoul, Kluft - Osaka and Ennis London) and examine where their result in the heptathlon will place them in the individual events at that chanpionship:
1. JJK: Gold (LJ), Bronze (100h), 10th (200), 20th (HJ)
2. Ennis 4th (100h), 11th (LJ), 17th (200), 20th (HJ)
3. Kluft: 5th (LJ), 7 (HJ), 27 (100h), 28(200)

In both comparisons JJK comes miles ahead of the other two. I doubt very much that there is a fair comparison between the three that JJK is not the best by far. But in reality this is a fruitless exercise as your anti-Anerican sentiment cloud your better judgment.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby olorin » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:24 pm

Gabriella wrote:That's silly. That's like saying every performance other than a WR is a let down. We're not talking about scores, we're talking about virtually the whole top ten from the last few seasons missing from Moscow. I stand by my point and if this were any other event, especially one with top Americans in it, y'all would be saying the same.


On the other hand I with you on this point. I would much rather see the top ten from last year fighting it with the "new blood" even if the competition will not be so close. As a fan I would much rather that Thiesen will win bronze in a strong field than a gold in the current field. Having said that because of the special nature of multy-events we are bound to see good perfromacnes that will lead to close exciting competition. Pitty it will be in the ~6500 range rather than in the ~6900.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby butch » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Dudes,
What this entire gig is missing in this blog site is that you are forgetting that nearly 90% of success in any multievent competition is a complete and thorough preparation in front of the meeting. Hence, those not there due to injury, etc. maybe ( and I emphasize maybe ) have not had a good preparation program...too much work , etc leading to injury, etc. So while yes the competition is execution of the skills, you can only perform if you get to the start line. For one reason or another, many in the women's multi will not get to the start line on August 12. Sad. But it then says that those that do get there healthy and win are surely deserving of the title World Champion. Their meet preparation and execution of skills will have been complete!
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:00 am

Gabriella wrote:And I believe we have seen athletes more naturally gifted that JJK take gold; namely Kluft and Ennis herself. I don't care for crazy WRs set in the 80s and I certainly don't compare today's stars with those of the 80s; completely different era and ball game.


And of course a different Javelin.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby Gabriella » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:05 am

olorin wrote:In the first comparison I look at the top ten results of the Heptathlon in the world in the four years that each athlete was at her prime: JJK from 1985-1988, Kluft 2004-2007 and Enis 2009-2012.
1. JJK hold the top 6 results and 7 out of the top 10. A gap of 391 points between her and the second best (Sabine JOHN 6897)
2. Kluft - Top 2 results and 7 out of 10. A gap of 143 points to second place (Barber 6889).
3. Enis - Top 2 results and 5 out of 10. A gap of 75 points to second place (Chernova 6880).

Another way to compare in the see how their results in the individual events. This comparison suffers from the problem that in three events (the SP, JT and 800) the heptathlists are not near the top world level. But, because all three were extremely good in the other four events I think that the comparison is still interesting. So, for each of the three I looked at their peak performance (JJK - Seoul, Kluft - Osaka and Ennis London) and examine where their result in the heptathlon will place them in the individual events at that chanpionship:
1. JJK: Gold (LJ), Bronze (100h), 10th (200), 20th (HJ)
2. Ennis 4th (100h), 11th (LJ), 17th (200), 20th (HJ)
3. Kluft: 5th (LJ), 7 (HJ), 27 (100h), 28(200)

In both comparisons JJK comes miles ahead of the other two. I doubt very much that there is a fair comparison between the three that JJK is not the best by far. But in reality this is a fruitless exercise as your anti-Anerican sentiment cloud your better judgment.



A completely biased and pointless exercise that only shows half of the story. You've conveniently missed the three events where Ennis and Kluft are closer to the event leaders than JJK. In the SP and JT in particular Ennis and Kluft out perform JJK in relative terms, as well as the 800. Besides a better method would have been where they are on the world lists, not in that championship, but of course you can't do that unless you have Peter Matthews annuals so you've resulted to trying to prove your theory with a naff methodology.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:23 am

A completely biased and pointless exercise that only shows half of the story. You've conveniently missed the three events where Ennis and Kluft are closer to the event leaders than JJK. In the SP and JT in particular Ennis and Kluft out perform JJK in relative terms, as well as the 800. Besides a better method would have been where they are on the world lists, not in that championship, but of course you can't do that unless you have Peter Matthews annuals so you've resulted to trying to prove your theory with a naff methodology.[/quote]
JJK threw 16.84m SP in 1988 and at least a 16.00m in heptathlon, bettering than Kluft and Ennis even if comparing to the their each days.What is more,SP results in heptathlon in that time did not better than today,too.As for 800m,JJK also did OK comparing to these two lady.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby gh » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:46 am

Gabriella wrote:And I believe we have seen athletes more naturally gifted that JJK take gold; namely Kluft and Ennis herself. ...


Seriously?!

It's all subjective, of course, and memories can be skewed over the course of 30-plus years,but I would not put either of those remotely in JJK's class as "naturally gifted."
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby Gabriella » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:47 am

@nianchengyu, olorin's point was about their heptathlon performance against the individual event marks. JJK may have a SP PB over 16 but in Seoul she threw 15.80 as against Lisovskaya's 22.24, a difference of 6.44m. This is a poorer differential compared to Ennis/Adams (6.42) and Kluft/Cumba (4.79). Similarly in the JT the JJK/Felke differential is 29.02, much poorer than Kluft/Menendez (22.64) and Ennis/Spotakova (22.06). You are right about JJKs 800, although she is only 5/100ths closer than Ennis. Kluft's mark was comparatively slow because she didnt choose to run hard, her lead was so massive (the biggest in Olympic history, a huge 517 pts over second place)
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby lionelp1 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:23 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Gabriella wrote:And I believe we have seen athletes more naturally gifted that JJK take gold; namely Kluft and Ennis herself. I don't care for crazy WRs set in the 80s and I certainly don't compare today's stars with those of the 80s; completely different era and ball game.


And of course a different Javelin.


Yes , the eighties was the sh*t era for super records that stand still stand and will for decades yet, imo.
If we consider that some athletes today are cheating, lord knows what some were up to before the WADA and out of season testing eras.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby dbirds » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:32 am

I agree with GH - JJK is the greatest natural female athlete that I've ever seen in the multi events and maybe all of track and field. Ennis and Kluft are certainly great natural athletes but I'm not sure they belong in JJK's league but I am open to heating your opinion on this.
I do think Ennis's size may limit her somewhat and Klufts isn't the speed threat that JJK was and the hept certainly favors speed types.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby beebee » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:04 am

Absolutely zero excuse to delete my comment GH. I simply stated that very few people believe that Ennis of Kluft were better athletes than JJK. You clearly play favorites and censor those whom you personally don't care for.

If you were more consistent there would be fewer misunderstandings at this forum.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby gh » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:11 am

sorry--was trying to excise the already-chopped post from an other and instead of snipping just that I accidentallyy killed your whole post.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby beebee » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:15 am

gh wrote:sorry--was trying to excise the already-chopped post from an other and instead of snipping just that I accidentallyy killed your whole post.


No problem...I know that I'm on deathrow anyway...


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:55 pm

Gabriella wrote:@nianchengyu, olorin's point was about their heptathlon performance against the individual event marks. JJK may have a SP PB over 16 but in Seoul she threw 15.80 as against Lisovskaya's 22.24, a difference of 6.44m. This is a poorer differential compared to Ennis/Adams (6.42) and Kluft/Cumba (4.79). Similarly in the JT the JJK/Felke differential is 29.02, much poorer than Kluft/Menendez (22.64) and Ennis/Spotakova (22.06). You are right about JJKs 800, although she is only 5/100ths closer than Ennis. Kluft's mark was comparatively slow because she didnt choose to run hard, her lead was so massive (the biggest in Olympic history, a huge 517 pts over second place)

That is unfair for JJK,Lisovskaya 22.24m is superable even in that age,but the mark of Cumba is quite shock winning mark, Adams is not great,too.At that time wSP is about one meter longer than today,Plusing that only comparing to the winner is unfair,you should compare to the fanalist level as well.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby olorin » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:38 pm

Gabriella wrote:
olorin wrote: But in reality this is a fruitless exercise as your anti-Anerican sentiment cloud your better judgment.



A completely biased and pointless exercise that only shows half of the story. You've conveniently missed the three events where Ennis and Kluft are closer to the event leaders than JJK. In the SP and JT in particular Ennis and Kluft out perform JJK in relative terms, as well as the 800. Besides a better method would have been where they are on the world lists, not in that championship, but of course you can't do that unless you have Peter Matthews annuals so you've resulted to trying to prove your theory with a naff methodology.


The only pointless exercise was trying to convince you that an American athlete was actually the best we ever saw.
The reason that I used only four events is because in the three events multi-event athletes are no way near the world standard so I couldn't say in which place JJK/Ennis/Kluft would have finished.
Of this three events in the SP JJK has a 1.8 advantage in PB and her result is Seoul is 0.99 meter better than Kluft. Ennis is another ~0.5 a meter behind. As nianchengyu posted there is roughly a meter difference between 80' results and nowadays. So JJK was better that the other two as far as PBs concern and in similar level to Kluft and better than Ennis in the specific event.
The 800 we can agree that all three were at the same level.
The JT is the hardest to compare because of the change in the Javelin. But even if JJK best was only 45 meters she would still be miles ahead of Kluft and Ennis when we take into account her superior LJ and 100h (against Kluft).
I doubt very much that there are many events in T&F in which the GOAT is so clear.

But as I said at the beginning - nothing going to convince you because she is American.
BTW - if you do want to do calculations use the ratio and not the difference
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby Gabriella » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:51 am

Olorin, firstly this has absolutely nothing to do with JJK being American; that is insulting.

This wasn't (for me) about whether JJK had better marks than Kluft or Ennis, that wasn't my point. This is about different times. You simply cannot compare performances made in that era with the greats of the 00's and beyond. Times have changed. Not completely but significantly enough. Thus, I don't deny JJK's marks are out there and she dominated her event. Was JJK the best heptathlete ever? Yes. Do I think she was the most naturally gifted heptathlete ever? No I do not. Was Marita Koch the greatest 400m runner of all time? Yes. Was she the most naturally gifted? No, I don't believe she was.

gh, you youself have said on these forums many times that you take performances from the 80's and before with a pinch of salt, and you take the stance that everyone was cheating. Well so do I, so please do not jump on me when I try, as discreetly and politley as possible, to answer your question "Seriously?!".

As an aside, remove the points advantage heptathletes got with the old javelin model, and you're looking at something like 7231 instead of 7291. That makes Kluft's PB about 199 behind. I would say 199 is probably a reasonable figure that could be 'gained' from competing in the 80's (some may even say it's a conservative figure)
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:49 am

Very well point Gabriella and one I very much agree on.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby olorin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:09 pm

Gabriella wrote:Olorin, firstly this has absolutely nothing to do with JJK being American; that is insulting.

You may be right and I just imagine that you are totally biased against American athletes. Just as a side can you show me one post of yours that has anything positive about an American athlete?
NOW to your points:
Gabriella wrote: As an aside, remove the points advantage heptathletes got with the old javelin model, and you're looking at something like 7231 instead of 7291. That makes Kluft's PB about 199 behind. I would say 199 is probably a reasonable figure that could be 'gained' from competing in the 80's (some may even say it's a conservative figure)

So 200 points in the Heptathlon equates to roughly 10 meters in the Javelin. This is a large overestimation of the difference between the old and the new model. More importantly when you look at the results in Javelin of Heptathletes around the time the new model was introduced (1999) there is NO DROP at all. For example, looking at the results of the WC you will find that the number of 45+ throws in the Heptathlon is:
95: 11
97: 6
99: 12
01: 10
03: 9
05:11
You can look at the IAAF manual (link in the homepage) and examine the results. Can you show me the 10m drop?
Gabriella wrote: This wasn't (for me) about whether JJK had better marks than Kluft or Ennis, that wasn't my point. This is about different times. You simply cannot compare performances made in that era with the greats of the 00's and beyond. Was JJK the best heptathlete ever? Yes. Do I think she was the most naturally gifted heptathlete ever? No I do not. Was Marita Koch the greatest 400m runner of all time? Yes. Was she the most naturally gifted? No, I don't believe she was.

This is an old and dirty trick. Argue that your “opponent” said something and then attack him for the things he didn’t say. Look at my initial post, I agreed with you at the beginning that we cannot compare between 80’ results and nowdays. This was the all point of comparing JJK/Kluft results to other athletes that compete in the same era or compare their results to the result of the individual events in the same era as they compete.
If we look at Koch for example and ask whether she is the GAOT then I will look whether she was dominate at her era. Her WR 47.60 while is completely out of reach today was not that special during her days. During the 80’ we saw nine sub 48.6 by four different athletes (including 47.99 by Krato). Koch also lost in the 1983 WC to Krato. So Koch was good but not close the level of dominance that JJK had in the Heptathlon.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby olorin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:16 pm

Another way to look at the comparison between JJK and Kluft is to examine JJK’s post 80’ results. During the 90’ the level in T&F was similar to Kluft’s era. JJK was injured most of the time so she didn’t have a stellar performance in the Heptathlon (still better than Kluft’s all time best). But if you look at the results of her individual events you will see that she perform on the same level on the LJ (7.49 - 94, 7.20 -96) 100h (12.69) SP (She has a 16+ throw in 1997) and slightly behind in the HJ (above 1.90) 800 (2:12). The only possible large decrease was in the JT (I can find only ~46 but I don’t have all the results). This is BY FAR better than Kluft ever achieved in her life.


This is the last post on this topic until the end of the world championship. If you can have any argument that is based (not like your 200 points in the JT) I will do an in depth comparison after the WC.
Now - I have a decathlon preview (shorter than usual) to do
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby gh » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:17 pm

Gabriella wrote:....

gh, you youself have said on these forums many times that you take performances from the 80's and before with a pinch of salt, and you take the stance that everyone was cheating....


I don't believe that's what I've said at all. I have said that 40-odd years ago I discovered it was easiest to follow the sport if you assume evrybody is dirty, and that way you are never disappointed when somebody turns up positive. I never singled out any era. Nor would I.

So if you continue to go downt his path again, you are doomed.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby Gabriella » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:39 pm

Olorin, you need to re read my post; where on earth did I say that 199 points was due to the JT? The difference between the old and new JT is around 60 points. The other 199 is from somewhere else.
And Koch wasn't as dominant as JJK? Dude you need to go read your athletics books again you obviously no nothing about her career. Koch was number 1 more times, had more WRs oh and competed in a more much established and competitive event.

Post 80s JJKs form DID drop. She wasn't always injured as you suggest. In fact she never got within about 260 points of her best ever again.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby Flumpy » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:57 am

olorin wrote:Koch also lost in the 1983 WC to Krato.


She didn't.
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby olorin » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:56 am

Flumpy wrote:
olorin wrote:Koch also lost in the 1983 WC to Krato.


She didn't.


You are right it was Roma 1981 - my bad memory :oops: (She didn't compete in 1983 in the 400)
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Re: Ennis out of Worlds -wHEP wide open

Postby Rog » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:32 am

olorin wrote:If we look at Koch for example and ask whether she is the GAOT then I will look whether she was dominate at her era. Her WR 47.60 while is completely out of reach today was not that special during her days. During the 80’ we saw nine sub 48.6 by four different athletes (including 47.99 by Krato). Koch also lost in the 1983 WC to Krato. So Koch was good but not close the level of dominance that JJK had in the Heptathlon.


Koch's 47.60 was voted TFN performance of the year for 1985. It was very much seen as special! At that time I remember Athletics Weekly and other mags running stories on whether she was at that stage the greatest female athlete of all time - the concensus was yes. Her level of dominance was amazing, and it's not as if JJK never lost - she dnf'd in Tokyo 91, by which time she was no longer putting together scores of 7,000. Ultimately though this is a subjective matter, as to who is the greatest - both Koch and JJK have legitimate cases for consideration. Let's just celebrate them both!
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Re: JJK vs. Klüft [split]

Postby Gabriella » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:02 am

JJK also got beaten in LA 1984 as well. Oh, and AW and Athletics Today voted Koch the female athlete of the 1980s.

Anyway, again Olorin has gone off on one; this wasn't about whether Koch or JJK was the greatest! It was a comparison re who was the best vs who was the most naturally gifted.

Some argue that Lisovskaya or Felke were the greatest SP/JT of all time. I could agree, but again, do I think they were the most naturally gifted? No I do not.

Rog, I agree, both great in their own way and each can be celebrated!

Anyway, I'm signing out of this thread now. It has gone way off track!
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Re: JJK vs. Klüft [split]

Postby dbirds » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:52 pm

I'd like to hear your opinions on who the most naturally gifted athlete in each event were and why
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Re: JJK vs. Klüft [split]

Postby Pego » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:06 pm

Two most naturally gifted female athletes that I have seen competing in person.

1. JJK
2. Alexandra Chudina

Personal opinion that I do not care to defend.
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Re: JJK vs. Klüft [split]

Postby El Toro » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:03 am

Pego wrote:Two most naturally gifted female athletes that I have seen competing in person.

1. JJK
2. Alexandra Chudina

Personal opinion that I do not care to defend.


That's because it's indefensible, and I mean that in a nice way. :D

There is no objective measure of "naturally gifted", so it is mere opinion. And opinion doesn't need defending (unless you are bored).
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