Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?


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Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Adriana S » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:48 pm

In light of recent events (and incredible disappointment), are we calling AF the "last one standing" or the one universally agreed upon - in terms of legitimacy - greatest female sprinter of all time? Most talented?
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:26 am

None of the above
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Tuariki » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:30 am

Adriana S wrote:In light of recent events (and incredible disappointment), are we calling AF the "last one standing" or the one universally agreed upon - in terms of legitimacy - greatest female sprinter of all time? Most talented?

Not even close to Wilma Rudolph or Betty Cuthbert. The 70s, 80s and 90s don't count.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:34 am

Tuariki wrote:
Adriana S wrote:In light of recent events (and incredible disappointment), are we calling AF the "last one standing" or the one universally agreed upon - in terms of legitimacy - greatest female sprinter of all time? Most talented?

Not even close to Wilma Rudolph or Betty Cuthbert. The 70s, 80s and 90s don't count.


Irena Szewinska 200m GOAT
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:16 am

mump boy wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Adriana S wrote:In light of recent events (and incredible disappointment), are we calling AF the "last one standing" or the one universally agreed upon - in terms of legitimacy - greatest female sprinter of all time? Most talented?

Not even close to Wilma Rudolph or Betty Cuthbert. The 70s, 80s and 90s don't count.


Irena Szewinska 200m GOAT


Truth!
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:38 am

What an odd thread??? :?
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Rog » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:16 am

Tuariki wrote:
Adriana S wrote:In light of recent events (and incredible disappointment), are we calling AF the "last one standing" or the one universally agreed upon - in terms of legitimacy - greatest female sprinter of all time? Most talented?

Not even close to Wilma Rudolph or Betty Cuthbert. The 70s, 80s and 90s don't count.



When you day "the 70s, 80s and 90s don't count", I'm presuming you mean because of drugs. The fact is though that drugs were being used in athletics, and female sprinting, long before the 70s, and are still in use today, as all the positive tests in the 00s and this decade show.

In any case Allyson Felis isn't anywhere close to being the greatest female sprinter of all time. I don't even know if she's the best Bobby Kersee-trained sprinter.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:52 am

Allyson has never won anything of note outside of the 200m, which on its own is essentially a secondary event to the 100m and 400m. She's set no individual senior records. Hard to think she is even close to being the goat of anything.

Hell, she isn't even close to the best sprinter coached by Bobby Kersee.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Dixon » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:12 am

I gotta go with Betty Cuthbert. She held the WR in the 60-100-200-400, she won four Olympic gold medals, she was world ranked in the 100/200/400, most the time either first or second. She was the total package.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby ldnbloke » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:27 am

Rog wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Adriana S wrote:
In any case Allyson Felis isn't anywhere close to being the greatest female sprinter of all time. I don't even know if she's the best Bobby Kersee-trained sprinter.

Yep, Flo-Jo and JJK are his best two sprinters.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:46 am

Irena Szewińska? GOAT? No. And, certainly not with the bit of emphasis put on her. I think on balance Felix rates favorably against her, but Irena Szewińska definitely has the edge. Marlies Gohr and Flojo were clearly better sprinters. I think Irena Szewińska is probably 6th, but I could put her in the top 5.

wGSPOAT
Marlies Gohr
Flojo
Betty Cuthbert
JJK
Gail Devers
Irena Szewińska

I think Irena Szewińska would probably be ranked #1 among the athletes on the IAAF Council. Szewińska, Bubka, Coe, Fredericks, Juantorena, Davis-Thompson, El Moutawakel, and Balakhnichev.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:48 am

Koch should be pretty high up on that list as well.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:53 am

dustoff wrote:Koch should be pretty high up on that list as well.

Agreed. I typed her in and somehow edited her out. Weird. Koch...could be #1.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:01 am

batonless relay wrote:
dustoff wrote:Koch should be pretty high up on that list as well.

Agreed. I typed her in and somehow edited her out. Weird. Koch...could be #1.

And, shamefully, I forgot Evelyn Ashford. :oops:
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby peach77 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:07 am

batonless relay wrote:Irena Szewińska? GOAT? No. And, certainly not with the bit of emphasis put on her. I think on balance Felix rates favorably against her, but Irena Szewińska definitely has the edge. Marlies Gohr and Flojo were clearly better sprinters. I think Irena Szewińska is probably 6th, but I could put her in the top 5.

wGSPOAT
Marlies Gohr
Flojo
Betty Cuthbert
JJK
Gail Devers
Irena Szewińska

I think Irena Szewińska would probably be ranked #1 among the athletes on the IAAF Council. Szewińska, Bubka, Coe, Fredericks, Juantorena, Davis-Thompson, El Moutawakel, and Balakhnichev.


In fairness, the GOAT was given to the 200m...there's three in that first list that didn't even "really" run the 200m!
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:29 am

peach77 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Irena Szewińska? GOAT? No. And, certainly not with the bit of emphasis put on her. I think on balance Felix rates favorably against her, but Irena Szewińska definitely has the edge. Marlies Gohr and Flojo were clearly better sprinters. I think Irena Szewińska is probably 6th, but I could put her in the top 5.

wGSPOAT
Marlies Gohr
Flojo
Betty Cuthbert
JJK
Gail Devers
Irena Szewińska

I think Irena Szewińska would probably be ranked #1 among the athletes on the IAAF Council. Szewińska, Bubka, Coe, Fredericks, Juantorena, Davis-Thompson, El Moutawakel, and Balakhnichev.


In fairness, the GOAT was given to the 200m...there's three in that first list that didn't even "really" run the 200m!

The OP referred to "greatest sprinter"
Adriana S wrote:In light of recent events (and incredible disappointment), are we calling AF the "last one standing" or the one universally agreed upon - in terms of legitimacy - greatest female sprinter of all time? Most talented?

But, I wouldn't make Szewińska GOAT for the 200m, either.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Gabriella » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:36 am

why have some of you jokers included JJK in the list? A 12.61 hurdles and 22.30 over 200m does not the greatest sprinter list maketh! Especially with her awful 100m/400m PBs and no sprint medals! (I DON'T wanna hear shoulda/coulda/woulda)

As for removing the 70's, 80's, 90's....really? And the 60's and 10's were/are any cleaner? :roll:
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:53 am

Gabriella wrote:As for removing the 70's, 80's, 90's....really? And the 60's and 10's were/are any cleaner? :roll:

I'll take out the coulda, woulda, shouldas...if you remove all doubt that the pre-60's were any cleaner. :wink:
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:55 am

batonless relay wrote:
dustoff wrote:Koch should be pretty high up on that list as well.

Agreed. I typed her in and somehow edited her out. Weird. Koch...could be #1.


Her and Privalova are certainly miles ahead of Felix.

Privalova: 60m WR, 400mH Olympic gold, individual medals in the 100m and 200m.
Koch: 50m WR, 400m WR, and great performances everywhere in between. Much more well rounded.

Felix is a bit of a one trick pony in terms of the greatest of all-time and in a 'secondary' event for most. She has 1 individual medal outside of the 200m and it is a silver in the quite weak w400m. If her titles were all in the 100m or 400m, she would have more of a shot in my eyes, but the 200m makes her argument even weaker.

I don't think she makes top 10.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:59 am

Gabriella wrote:why have some of you jokers included JJK in the list? A 12.61 hurdles and 22.30 over 200m does not the greatest sprinter list maketh! Especially with her awful 100m/400m PBs and no sprint medals! (I DON'T wanna hear shoulda/coulda/woulda)

As for removing the 70's, 80's, 90's....really? And the 60's and 10's were/are any cleaner? :roll:


lol not to mention, Allyson is coached by Bobby Kersee! Has been with him since she was 18 IIRC.

JJK might not have the PBs, but at her best she would have almost definitely taken Allyson in a 60/100 and given her a run in the 200m. If she focused on it, it would've been no contest, but you are right I think that she should not be in the discussion as a pure sprinter. I would argue though that her 12.6 100mh is more impressive than Allyson's secondary marks, given the era.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:05 am

Koch
Privalova
Ashford
FloJo
Cuthbert
Szewiriska
Gohr
Perec
Devers (ahead of Felix on flat 100m alone, if we factor in 100mh she is one of the best of all time)
Probably bunch of others I am forgetting, but I think that gives you a pretty good list to start from.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby t_monk » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:12 am

The likes of Privalova, Torrence (when you look at pure times ran), Ottey (times ran), Devers, Ashford (times and longevity), Perec (sheer dominance).... It's just no contest to me. Yes Felix has some great times in the 200, some epic 400 legs but her open 400 times have been nowhere where we think she is capable of and outside of last year, her 100's have been forgettable...

And seriously.... I would find it hard to find any female I could give GOAT to who is not called Marita Koch.... From 60m all the way up to 400m she was a force.... And not just a place filler but a potential gold medalist.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby zidan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:47 am

....And no one has Ottey up there? weird.....
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:54 am

No one's mentioned Torrence and Ottey.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:07 am

zidan wrote:....And no one has Ottey up there? weird.....


Not man individual golds. I thought of her and then was trying to think of where she would stand out versus all of those others and I cannot really think of a single reason. Perhaps longevity, but Privalova has done quite a bit for an extended period of time.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:09 am

jazzcyclist wrote:No one's mentioned Torrence and Ottey.

Yes, they did. Read the thread.

I don't see where either of them come close to top 5 though. Koch, FloJo, Perec, Gohr, Privalova, Szewiriska, Cuthbert are all quite a bit ahead. Devers is alongside them with 100m alone and further if you tack on the 100mh. SAFP beats them both handily IMO and I don't even put her in the top 5.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:17 am

Renate Stecher
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Adriana S » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:58 am

Wow, I'm surprised at the amount of you guys who say no :lol:

I guess I am ignorant, I am not familiar with some of the names being listed. As a casual viewer, when I watched the Olympics I remember Allyson being asked by this same interviewer after every run how it felt to be "arguably the greatest female sprinter of all time." I thought this was something unanimous! :lol:

@Dustoff: I am not sure why you consider the 200m to be a lesser event in comparison to the 400m? :| The 100m I can understand, but the 400m? The 100m and 200m have always been the most exciting/looked forward to events, even moreso now with the likes of Usain Bolt around as the face of T&F.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Adriana S » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:00 am

Also, how do you guys rank times versus medals? Which one is holds more weight?

Felix has a bunch of medals, and her times aren't slouch by any means, at least not in her premiere event...
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby gh » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:05 am

In an all-time sense, the medal count for Felix (or anybody who came on the scene in the '90s or later) doesn't mean much, given that there were no WC medals to win before that.

Felix isn't the greatest 200 sprinter ever, let alone greatest all-around.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby lonewolf » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:25 am

Adriana S wrote:As a casual viewer, when I watched the Olympics I remember Allyson being asked by this same interviewer after every run how it felt to be "arguably the greatest female sprinter of all time." I thought this was something unanimous! :lol:


It ain't easy being Number One, ya know.
The moral of this lesson is: Don't give much/any credence to the opinions of post race sideline interviewers. :)
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:43 am

Adriana S wrote:@Dustoff: I am not sure why you consider the 200m to be a lesser event in comparison to the 400m? :| The 100m I can understand, but the 400m? The 100m and 200m have always been the most exciting/looked forward to events, even moreso now with the likes of Usain Bolt around as the face of T&F.


There are essentially no 200m specialists, other than her and I suppose Spearmon, an even less interesting sprinter of the same cloth as Felix. The 200m is also always decidedly after the 100m and generally incompatible with the 400m. The 200m is an afterthought event as the 100m is the most significant and the 400m generally is more specialized and not compatible on the timetable for doublers even at the NCAA level.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby zidan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:49 am

If we are talking greatest 200m sprinter, Ottey has to be in the top five. If its 1/2 combination, she is there also and I think SFP with her Oly 200 silver and the possibility of more to come,is going to be hovering near the top by the time her career is over.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby dustoff » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:14 am

zidan wrote:If we are talking greatest 200m sprinter, Ottey has to be in the top five. If its 1/2 combination, she is there also and I think SFP with her Oly 200 silver and the possibility of more to come,is going to be hovering near the top by the time her career is over.

SAFP isn't even the best 100m of all time, so not really sure how you get her as the best 1/2 combo.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Adriana S » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:45 am

dustoff wrote:
Adriana S wrote:@Dustoff: I am not sure why you consider the 200m to be a lesser event in comparison to the 400m? :| The 100m I can understand, but the 400m? The 100m and 200m have always been the most exciting/looked forward to events, even moreso now with the likes of Usain Bolt around as the face of T&F.


There are essentially no 200m specialists, other than her and I suppose Spearmon, an even less interesting sprinter of the same cloth as Felix. The 200m is also always decidedly after the 100m and generally incompatible with the 400m. The 200m is an afterthought event as the 100m is the most significant and the 400m generally is more specialized and not compatible on the timetable for doublers even at the NCAA level.


What do you mean by generally incompatible with the 400m? As in, a sprinter who is a a 200m specialist is less likely to be successful as a 400m runner and vice versa?
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Tuariki » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:46 am

dustoff wrote:
Adriana S wrote:@Dustoff: I am not sure why you consider the 200m to be a lesser event in comparison to the 400m? :| The 100m I can understand, but the 400m? The 100m and 200m have always been the most exciting/looked forward to events, even moreso now with the likes of Usain Bolt around as the face of T&F.


There are essentially no 200m specialists, other than her and I suppose Spearmon, an even less interesting sprinter of the same cloth as Felix. The 200m is also always decidedly after the 100m and generally incompatible with the 400m. The 200m is an afterthought event as the 100m is the most significant and the 400m generally is more specialized and not compatible on the timetable for doublers even at the NCAA level.

Bolt. Also dabbles quite well in the 100m.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:48 am

I read it as not compatible at a champs as they often overlap.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Adriana S » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:50 am

dustoff wrote:
zidan wrote:If we are talking greatest 200m sprinter, Ottey has to be in the top five. If its 1/2 combination, she is there also and I think SFP with her Oly 200 silver and the possibility of more to come,is going to be hovering near the top by the time her career is over.

SAFP isn't even the best 100m of all time, so not really sure how you get her as the best 1/2 combo.


What do you think it will take for her to get there? She already has 2 back-to-back Olympic titles. She's been both World & Olympic champion simultaneously; Gail Devers being the only other 100m sprinter to accomplish this. SAFP is also 4th fastest all time over the distance. If she makes it to Rio and wins again, I can't see why anyone would argue her not being #1.
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Adriana S » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:51 am

Flumpy wrote:I read it as not compatible at a champs as they often overlap.


But, why would this in turn make the 200m a "lesser" event? Instead of the 400m?
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Re: Sooo, Are We Calling Allyson Felix The Greatest, or...?

Postby Tuariki » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:53 am

zidan wrote:If we are talking greatest 200m sprinter, Ottey has to be in the top five. If its 1/2 combination, she is there also and I think SFP with her Oly 200 silver and the possibility of more to come,is going to be hovering near the top by the time her career is over.

Being the sexiest 200m runner ever,and with the greatest pair of legs ever, doesn't turn one's perennial Olympic record of never quite getting there into something even approaching the greatest. She ain't even in the top 10.

SAFP - don't make me laugh. She hasn't done anything yet in the 200m to warrant consideration.
A great 100m sprinter - yes. 200m - no.
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