A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race


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A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby BBTM media » Wed May 15, 2013 10:17 am

On this day, May 15, in 1965, Jim Ryun wins the Mile at the Kansas State Meet, clocking 3:58.3, the first sub-4 at a high school-only competition. It is one of greatest HS-only performances ever, and perhaps the best ever at a State Meet. Bravo, Jim Ryun.

Historic video at the below; epic finish line celebration as the crowd - including race officials, goes nuts. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaGDIKoh-g8

Bring Back the Mile Jim Ryun bio at: http://bringbackthemile.com/athletes/detail/jim_ryun
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby lonewolf » Wed May 15, 2013 11:14 am

I may have mentioned this previously but for the late comers....
I was in the stands that day, accompanied by my eight year old son, who a decade later became a respectable middle distance runner himself. I don't know that Ryun's run inspired him. He recently said what he remembers about the race is the huge light poles in the infield. :)
If memory serves (and it frequently fails me now a days) the second placer was Charlie________ , a 4:10 miler from Salina,KS who had been Ryun's only competition all year.
Last edited by lonewolf on Wed May 15, 2013 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Wed May 15, 2013 12:30 pm

Great stuff. To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun... of course there was that Lindgren guy but he just dabbled in the mile.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby BBTM media » Wed May 15, 2013 2:21 pm

lonewolf wrote:If memory serves (and it frequently fails me now a days) the second placer was Charlie________ from Salina, KS, a 4:10 miler from Salina,KS who had been Ryun's only competition all year.


At 1965 Kansas State Meet, Wichita East teammate Petterson was runner-up to Ryun; see: http://www.kcctfca.org/Results/StateTFR ... esults.PDF

Charlie Harper was the only athlete to beat Jim Ryun in high school Mile (March 1963); Ryun's first HS Mile too.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby lonewolf » Wed May 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Thanks for the correction. I do recall the name Petterson now.. I guess I was remembering the loss to Harper.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Mon May 20, 2013 5:32 am

What was Ryun's HS best at 880yds? We know that he set the WR for the 1/2 mile at 19 years of age but what was his 880 PR in HS.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby dj » Mon May 20, 2013 5:50 am

user4 wrote:What was Ryun's HS best at 880yds? We know that he set the WR for the 1/2 mile at 19 years of age but what was his 880 PR in HS.


1964: 1:50.3 880 6/13 at San Diego Inv.
1965: 1:50.5 880 7/18 in Kingston

Fastest in a high school race was probably a 1:51.5 880.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Marlow » Mon May 20, 2013 6:14 am

user4 wrote:Great stuff. To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

Let's give Alan Webb his props . . .
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Mon May 20, 2013 6:26 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:Great stuff. To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

Let's give Alan Webb his props . . .


Webb was great and he had a perfect stride but to me in this case the numbers are misleading... Sorry.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby kuha » Mon May 20, 2013 6:41 am

user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:Great stuff. To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

Let's give Alan Webb his props . . .


Webb was great and he had a perfect stride but to me in this case the numbers are misleading... Sorry.


Correct. Webb had the better time, but Ryun had (by FAR) the best HS career.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Mon May 20, 2013 7:36 am

kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:Great stuff. To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

Let's give Alan Webb his props . . .


Webb was great and he had a perfect stride but to me in this case the numbers are misleading... Sorry.


Correct. Webb had the better time, but Ryun had (by FAR) the best HS career.


I wonder what Ryun would have run had he run on the same track with Webb... As I see it we have not seen an American miler that matches Ryun's raw talent.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Marlow » Mon May 20, 2013 8:12 am

kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:Great stuff. To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

Let's give Alan Webb his props . . .

Webb was great and he had a perfect stride but to me in this case the numbers are misleading... Sorry.

Correct. Webb had the better time, but Ryun had (by FAR) the best HS career.

No question, but when you say "we've not seen anything close", you disrespect all that AW did indeed accomplish. When Ryun ran his 3:55, I guessing he would have beaten Webb when Webb ran his 3:53, but it would have been a close battle, so saying 'not even close' is hyperbole. Webb WAS close to what Ryan was, in both their senior years.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby kuha » Mon May 20, 2013 8:24 am

Marlow wrote:so saying 'not even close' is hyperbole. Webb WAS close to what Ryan was, in both their senior years.


Can't agree with that at all. Historical merit is a relative thing--the quality of athlete "A" in relation to the competition/standards of the day. By that basic measure, Ryun was vastly better than Webb. Truly, the comparison is "not even close."
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:44 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:so saying 'not even close' is hyperbole. Webb WAS close to what Ryan was, in both their senior years.


Can't agree with that at all. Historical merit is a relative thing--the quality of athlete "A" in relation to the competition/standards of the day. By that basic measure, Ryun was vastly better than Webb. Truly, the comparison is "not even close."


wild guess, Ryun's 3:55 from 1965 is worth a sub 3:50 today.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Marlow » Mon May 20, 2013 10:15 am

kuha wrote:Historical merit is a relative thing

Ain't it though . . . :wink:
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby bambam » Mon May 20, 2013 10:37 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:so saying 'not even close' is hyperbole. Webb WAS close to what Ryan was, in both their senior years.


Can't agree with that at all. Historical merit is a relative thing--the quality of athlete "A" in relation to the competition/standards of the day. By that basic measure, Ryun was vastly better than Webb. Truly, the comparison is "not even close."


Agree completely with kuha that the best historical measure is how dominant they were in their era against their peers.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Marlow » Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 am

bambam wrote:Agree completely with kuha that the best historical measure is how dominant they were in their era against their peers.

That completely ignores the fact that not all eras' 'peers' were identical. That's my point in the Myricks' thread. Today he dominates his 'peers'. Against Powell & Lewis, not so much. Plus, Webb dominated his HS competition as much as Ryun did. I COMPLETELY agree that Ryun is the HS GOAT, but if you look back at the statement I object to, you'll see where I'm coming from.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby kuha » Mon May 20, 2013 11:39 am

Marlow wrote:
bambam wrote:Agree completely with kuha that the best historical measure is how dominant they were in their era against their peers.

That completely ignores the fact that not all eras' 'peers' were identical. That's my point in the Myricks' thread. Today he dominates his 'peers'. Against Powell & Lewis, not so much. Plus, Webb dominated his HS competition as much as Ryun did. I COMPLETELY agree that Ryun is the HS GOAT, but if you look back at the statement I object to, you'll see where I'm coming from.


No, this is not an exact science and there is no official formula (hello, eldrick???) to "equate" one era with another. However, there is very clearly a basic framework of quality and standards that allows us to say that a 3:55 in 1965 is of vastly higher quality than a 3:53 in 2001 (is that the right year?)--and the competitive aspect clearly plays a major role here. It is also easy to say that Myricks was better than a fair number of event leaders from following years--since it is objectively clear that the overall standard of the event was much better in the glory days of Lewis/Powell/Myricks.

To say that Webb dominated his HS competition just as much as Ryun did sidesteps the real issue, which is quality/"domination" on all possible levels.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Marlow » Mon May 20, 2013 12:39 pm

kuha wrote:No, this is not an exact science and there is no official formula (hello, eldrick???) to "equate" one era with another. However, there is very clearly a basic framework of quality and standards that allows us to say that a 3:55 in 1965 is of vastly higher quality than a 3:53 in 2001 (is that the right year?)--and the competitive aspect clearly plays a major role here. It is also easy to say that Myricks was better than a fair number of event leaders from following years--since it is objectively clear that the overall standard of the event was much better in the glory days of Lewis/Powell/Myricks.

To say that Webb dominated his HS competition just as much as Ryun did sidesteps the real issue, which is quality/"domination" on all possible levels.

I fully AGREE with all of that; I just think it is 'xxxxxx' (fill in your own adjective or noun) to dismiss Webb so lightly. While Ryun is clearly the GOAT, Webb deserves big props for what he did too. When we have these GOAT discussions, we can't ignore the contributions of the near-GOATS! :D
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby kuha » Mon May 20, 2013 12:54 pm

You know, to be perfectly honest, on a thread titled "A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race" I do NOT think it should be mandatory that we give "props" to Webb. Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. Has there been some shortage of Webb threads in the last 2 or 3 hundred years here?
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Mon May 20, 2013 3:12 pm

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:That completely ignores the fact that not all eras' 'peers' were identical. That's my point in the Myricks' thread. Today he dominates his 'peers'. Against Powell & Lewis, not so much. Plus, Webb dominated his HS competition as much as Ryun did. I COMPLETELY agree that Ryun is the HS GOAT, but if you look back at the statement I object to, you'll see where I'm coming from.


No, this is not an exact science and there is no official formula (hello, eldrick???) to "equate" one era with another. However, there is very clearly a basic framework of quality and standards that allows us to say that a 3:55 in 1965 is of vastly higher quality than a 3:53 in 2001 (is that the right year?)--and the competitive aspect clearly plays a major role here. It is also easy to say that Myricks was better than a fair number of event leaders from following years--since it is objectively clear that the overall standard of the event was much better in the glory days of Lewis/Powell/Myricks.

To say that Webb dominated his HS competition just as much as Ryun did sidesteps the real issue, which is quality/"domination" on all possible levels.


I have to go over to the Myricks thread but lets be careful there, Myricks was NOT the same era as Lewis and Powell. Myricks was a few years before them though he overlapped with them towards the end of his career.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Marlow » Mon May 20, 2013 3:25 pm

kuha wrote:You know, to be perfectly honest, on a thread titled "A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race" I do NOT think it should be mandatory that we give "props" to Webb. Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. Has there been some shortage of Webb threads in the last 2 or 3 hundred years here?

Yes . . . sigh . . . you're right . . . I was just responding to this:

user4 wrote:To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

but yes, this is a tribute thread to JR.

As for the zillions of Webb threads, 99% of them are just more slams at him. He came to our school and was a great guy, so perhaps I'm just feeling defensive. Sorry.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Tue May 21, 2013 11:04 am

Marlow wrote:
kuha wrote:You know, to be perfectly honest, on a thread titled "A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race" I do NOT think it should be mandatory that we give "props" to Webb. Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. Has there been some shortage of Webb threads in the last 2 or 3 hundred years here?

Yes . . . sigh . . . you're right . . . I was just responding to this:

user4 wrote:To this day we have not seen anything close to Ryun

but yes, this is a tribute thread to JR.

As for the zillions of Webb threads, 99% of them are just more slams at him. He came to our school and was a great guy, so perhaps I'm just feeling defensive. Sorry.


Webb was a great great runner, I just loved his gait, he had a bop in his step that very few have and it was fun to watch. Aesthetically he was more of a joy to watch than Ryun.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby kuha » Tue May 21, 2013 12:05 pm

user4 wrote:Webb was a great great runner, I just loved his gait, he had a bop in his step that very few have and it was fun to watch. Aesthetically he was more of a joy to watch than Ryun.


Interesting. My take is exactly the reverse: for most of his career, Webb has seemed distinctly heavy and stiff, not genuinely "fluid" at all.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Tue May 21, 2013 3:06 pm

kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:Webb was a great great runner, I just loved his gait, he had a bop in his step that very few have and it was fun to watch. Aesthetically he was more of a joy to watch than Ryun.


Interesting. My take is exactly the reverse: for most of his career, Webb has seemed distinctly heavy and stiff, not genuinely "fluid" at all.


Ryun glided like a Kenyan 5k runner, Webb bounced around the track like a long jumper.


I think the closest thing to Ryun we have seen in recent years at the mile distance is Mary Cain.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Dave » Tue May 21, 2013 7:45 pm

user4 wrote:
kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:so saying 'not even close' is hyperbole. Webb WAS close to what Ryan was, in both their senior years.


Can't agree with that at all. Historical merit is a relative thing--the quality of athlete "A" in relation to the competition/standards of the day. By that basic measure, Ryun was vastly better than Webb. Truly, the comparison is "not even close."


wild guess, Ryun's 3:55 from 1965 is worth a sub 3:50 today.


Who was in the race when Ryun ran his 3:55? Webb had El Guerrouj to chase at Prefontaine.

http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php ... age_id=820
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby Per Andersen » Tue May 21, 2013 10:17 pm

Dave wrote:
Who was in the race when Ryun ran his 3:55? Webb had El Guerrouj to chase at Prefontaine.

http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php ... age_id=820

You mean the 3:55.3 race in '65 when he beat Snell, Grelle and Odlozil. Snell was done by then though.
I agree totally with Kuha about Webb's labored and stiff running stride.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby gktrack » Wed May 22, 2013 11:19 pm

Dave wrote:Who was in the race when Ryun ran his 3:55?...

here's Ryun's 3:55.3 race...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Thu May 23, 2013 4:48 am

gktrack wrote:
Dave wrote:Who was in the race when Ryun ran his 3:55?...

here's Ryun's 3:55.3 race...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA


sends a chill down the spine, that final lap is absolutely shocking... I think he was worth 3:54.5 that day had he run a more perfect race.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby wamego relays champ » Tue May 28, 2013 6:41 am

The HS Only mile list is updated to reflect the 2013 adidas GP Dream Mile and linked on the home page.

.
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby user4 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:23 pm

Imagine, that you are sitting on a park bench at the Mall in Washington DC, date is sometime between 2000-2005. To your far right is the US Grant memorial, to your far left is the George Washington Memorial... all of a sudden right in front of you, you see a tall slender elderly man running down the Mall cinder way. You unmistakenly see greatness in his legs. You could swear that it is none other than Jim Ryun !!.. ... Yes, it really happened to me.

.. and that is my introduction to a great article on the home page:

http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/event/ ... p/Opinion/
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Re: A salute to Jim Ryun's first sub-4 Mile in HS-only race

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:29 pm

user4 wrote: all of a sudden right in front of you, you see a tall slender elderly man running down the Mall cinder way. none other than Jim Ryun !!.. ... /


elderly??? Jim Ryun???... he is only 66 now!!!

I lived in Wichita when he was in HS..he was a common sight running the streets of Wichita in all kinds of weather.. saw most of his races, including his near solo 3:58 on the Wichita U cinder track...probably state meet 1965 ?....tall, slender and forever young to me..
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