Juantorena 200m PB ?


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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Sun May 05, 2013 1:08 pm

For comparison, if Rudisha had never ran a 400m and he went on to break the 1500m WR would anyone question his greatness at 800m ? Lets not forget what a 44.26 (in Montreal, not at altitude) meant in 1976.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon May 06, 2013 9:28 pm

Pretty much the entire thread was discussing Juanto's 400 meters and base speed for 200m

Yeah, until you injected Juanto's politics into the discussion, suggesting his "seeing" the US colors provided major motivation. That's why I pointed out his 800, that he broke open by 600, needing no more motivation than the Olympic setting, the Montreal crowd and maybe a sense of runners in pursuit.

As for "get real", is suggesting that the worldclass runners themselves--as opposed to the national allegiance of a few of them--were motivation enough unreal?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Thu May 09, 2013 4:22 pm

Jackaloupe wrote: Yeah, until you injected Juanto's politics into the discussion, suggesting his "seeing" the US colors provided major motivation. That's why I pointed out his 800, that he broke open by 600, needing no more motivation than the Olympic setting, the Montreal crowd and maybe a sense of runners in pursuit.

As for "get real", is suggesting that the worldclass runners themselves--as opposed to the national allegiance of a few of them--were motivation enough unreal?


Actually, mention had been previously made about Juantorena winning (the 400) from a tighter curved inside lane, to which I added that while indeed tighter, the inside position allowed Juanto to see his top competition all the way. That the competition was Newhouse--an American--almost certainly provided extra motivation, *if needed*...an observation based on the prevailing political climate between the US and Cuba.

Sure, I can acknowledge that it's possible for any athlete to win on basic first-to-the-finish-line motivation alone. But, for reasons listed above, I seriously doubt that was all there was in this case.

The question is, why are YOU so adamant that beating the Americans *wasn't* at least a part of Juantorena's racing mindset? Because of some kind of blind idealism athletes in sport have a higher purpose?

If so, get real.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Thu May 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Brian sez, for me: "some kind of blind idealism athletes in sport have a higher purpose" Well, that's sure putting a mouthful of never-even-implied thought into my post--just like you'd done w/ Juanto's injecting his well known politics into a race.

Ya know, this is getting downright tiresome, not only parsing a passel of motivations, but conflating the laned 400 w/ the 800 (the only race I mentioned, to counteract the vision thing). All along, you've conflated Newhouse being American with his personal prowess as chief rival.

Dunno if that little "as needed", which I never picked up on, somehow negates the clear thrust of your extended riff on historical Yanqui-hate, clearly implying it just had to be the major motivator in play. As there's no way to get into an athlete's head like that (a la Carol Lewis, as I said), I merely suggested that didn't wash, citing the 800m as a clear case where the US was literally nowhere in sight (your political metaphor, seeing the Felix Sanchez's Granny Pic after the Oly 400 H; maybe Juanto was even visualizing Gramma (Fidel's invasion boat).

So, give it a rest, OK?
Last edited by Jackaloupe on Fri May 10, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Fri May 10, 2013 7:36 pm

Jackaloupe wrote: Ya know, this is getting downright tiresome, not only parsing a passel of motivations, but conflating the laned 400 w/ the 800 (the only race I mentioned, to counteract the vision thing). All along, you've conflated Newhouse being American with his personal prowess as chief rival.


Newhouse was Juantorena's chief rival in the Montreal 400 meters race. And he was American. Period. Those two things are perfectly capable of providing a non-American competitor who "not a fan of Americans" [--quoting gh, who spoke directly with that particular competitor] with the extra impetus to succeed in the hometretch. Period.

You're entitled to your opinion. But so am I. A shame you can't see it that way.

This is played out and not worth a "vacation" for either of us.

Truce?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Fri May 10, 2013 8:56 pm

You're entitled to your opinion. But so am I. A shame you can't see it that way. [Yet another injection of mind-reading.]

Once the discussin' began it wasn't (for me) a matter of respecting your valid opinion--which was hard to suss out, as you wavered between Newhouse's nationality and his prowess as chief rival; than back-tracked from "major reason" to "if needed", in quotes but never stated earlier.
It was inconsistent logic and citing of evidence to back it, the venturesome speculation, and moreover the vehement personalization ("get real") when I'd simply presented some counter arguments--while admittedly ridiculing your blaming the US for the P___ culture in Latin America.

If "truce" means no more mischaracterization of another's statements, incl. reading in stuff that was never there, you're on. And even mild personal admonitions don't go over very well hereabouts--really.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Sat May 11, 2013 7:48 am

Im going to offer a rough guess and say that Juantorena during his best 400m form (which also was his bet 800m form, ... frightening yes ) was worth about a 20.6s over 200m. That is to say, had he been entered in only the 200m at Montreal ( having trained for the 400m/800m double) ... 20.6. That is speculation based only on the flimsy evidence of watching him run the rounds of the 400m at Montreal.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Fri May 31, 2013 9:17 pm

From the front page. Just thought it was interesting how old feuds seem to never die.

http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?opti ... 1&Itemid=1
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