Conor Dary wrote:I would go with Ted Williams on this.
There's no doubt that Williams had extraordinary hand-eye coordination but the thing to remember is that hitting the baseball with power the way Williams did (as opposed to slap hitting), requires more than just hand-eye coordination, it also requires a minimum amount bat speed/power. It's not a coincidence that baseball's greatest pure hitters (Gehrig, DiMaggio, Williams, Aaron) not only stuck out infrequently, but also hit a lot of homeruns.
And Williams' stats dont include what could have been some of his best years (1942-1944, pilot) if played in full. He also lost 1953 to Korea again serving as a pilot. Im guessing that hand eye coordination came in handy with the plane and gun too.
fortyacresandamule wrote:Do golfers qualify as athletes? For if they do, we might as well called ball room dancers athletes also.
As a former pro golfer I will say that I think ball room dancers actually have to have a much greater degree of athletic skill than golfers. We just had to become automatons. Dancers are pretty athletic in many cases. There was a book in the 70s called The Ultimate Athlete and the author concluded he did not know who the ultimate athlete was, but he bet he/she was a dancer.
bambam wrote:The Ultimate Athlete and the author concluded he did not know who the ultimate athlete was, but he bet he/she was a dancer.
I am now going to admit that my wife addicted me (it's not my fault!) to So You Think You Can Dance. While most of the dancers are not doing highly athletic things, some of them, male and female, do some AMAZING leaps and lifts and spins, that only a highly talented and trained athlete could attain. Those, needless to say, are my favorites. Graceful dancers are, IMO, a dime a dozen.
fortyacresandamule wrote:Do golfers qualify as athletes? For if they do, we might as well called ball room dancers athletes also.
As a former pro golfer I will say that I think ball room dancers actually have to have a much greater degree of athletic skill than golfers. We just had to become automatons. Dancers are pretty athletic in many cases. There was a book in the 70s called The Ultimate Athlete and the author concluded he did not know who the ultimate athlete was, but he bet he/she was a dancer.
I used to reside/train where the Rambert Dance Company, a leading Brit contemporary dance company, was based. In those days they were called the Ballet Rambert and I would agree with the book's author. Dancers are fabulous all-around athletes and incredibly hard workers.
There have been many great High School Track athletes that went on to pursue Football instead of track. But keep in mind, they were great High School athletes, that does not automatically mean that would have gone pro and become amazing athletes in Track had they continued. High jump is the number one example given as to what many Receivers in the NFL did in High School. They were a 7 foot high jumper let's say. There are a lot of 7-0 HJ's in high school. They don't all go on to become amazing HJ's. And in the realm of pro's, 7-0 is below starting height.
Football players tend to be "power" athletes, and can often times struggle with the finesse side of the field events. Do not just assume that they would be good. There is a reason that only a select few individuals in the world are able to score so high in the Decathlon. It is not something that every athletic football player would be able to do.
repmujhgih wrote:Football players tend to be "power" athletes, and can often times struggle with the finesse side of the field events.
The elite 'skill' players in the NFL have all the requisite ability to master the technical side of T&F. What they do lack is the ultra-elite genetics to reproduce what a Usain Bolt / Tyson Gay, or a Christian Cantwell / Reese Hoffa can do. NFL greats have TREMENDOUS overall strength and athleticism, but what a 9.75 sprinter or a 72' SPer has is a very specific ability in one certain motor pathway.
Look at someone like Deion Sanders, who was one of the best shutdown cornerbacks/kick returners in the history of the NFL and who also hit over .300 for a season in MLB. IMO, covering Jerry Rice requires a competely different skillset/talent than batting .300 against big league pitching and because of this, I suspect that there's a lot more that he could do at the highest level than play football and baseball.
dbirds wrote: Others to consider: if they have women, JJK is a lock.
Why is JJK a lock? If she is, then why isnt a male decathlete a lock?
There are other great women too who have done multiple events and other sports. Irina Privalova has proven great athleticism, she has good HJ and LJ pbs from when she was a junior, had great all-round sprinting ability, and had that background in speed skating from when she was younger.
Heike Drechsler was a fantastic all-rounder, her head-to-heads with JJK were seen as a clash of "the greatest women all-round athletes" by the athletics community. But in addition she was a good swimmer, originally being selected by the GDR authorities for that sport rather than athletics.
Then we have some great sprint-hurdlers, who have superb athleticism; Yordanka Donkova and Gail Devers spring to mind, both with proven (yet unfulfilled) ability in other athletics disciplines.
On pure natural athletic talent alone, we also have Kluft and Ennis. I'm not aware of either of these doing other sports outside athletics though. We also have seen many pole vaulters who have have also been gymnasts at one point too.
Indeed,Privalova 22/11/1968 has great athleticism,here are some of her pbs: 60H:8.16s[31y];100mH:13.56s[31y]:HJ:1.72m[14y around];200m:21.82/+3.1;LJ;6.45m[15y];800m:2:09.40 [34y] Devers who has huge strength although she is tiny for hep:100mH:12.33s[2000];200m:22.55s/+3.5[1987]:6.77m/-1.6[1988];2.11.07[1982] When Dreschler was a penthlete,she already set world 15-age LJ best of 6.64m in a 4329p Pentathlon competition in Cuba along with 1.80m HJ,that year she also tried hep as well.
But she didnt excel in the JT and 800m at all; she was more often than not mid 40's in the JT, and that is with the old-old javelin model (she'd be meters less with the new model) and in the 800m we only saw a couple of excellent 800's.
The other point is that, due to the heptathlon scoring tables, athletes that are sprinter/jumpers have an advantage over throwers, so her gap over her rivals is skewed. Athletes like Turchinskaya, Shouaa and Dobrynska are very disadvantaged, as are all strong throwers.
People see 'athletic' as 'run and jump' (speed), but 'throw' (power) is in there too. The decathlon evens things out a bit better than the heptathlon, and throw in the DT & PV and we would see a change at the top of women's multis.
I'm not doubting JJKs fantastic record, but there are other brilliantly athletic women too. I don't think we'll ever know who is truly the most athletic or best heptathlete when things in the 80's were different to now. It's like comparing 80's throwers to Adams, Heidler et al.
Gabriella wrote:But she didnt excel in the JT and 800m at all;
I beg to differ. Her 50m JT in 1986 was indeed 'excellent', as was her 2:08 800. The rest of her marks then were world-class. She was (is) in a completely different class than her 'peers'. And her peers were among the best athletes on the planet.
Gabriella wrote:But she didnt excel in the JT and 800m at all;
I beg to differ. Her 50m JT in 1986 was indeed 'excellent', as was her 2:08 800. The rest of her marks then were world-class. She was (is) in a completely different class than her 'peers'. And her peers were among the best athletes on the planet.
JJK indeed has huge individual pbs but relatively she cannot combined them well in hep ,her total pbs worth more than 7600p but only 7291p WR with below-par HJ and JV,in her 7215p she did not do well in LJ/7.00m and 800m/2.20s.Furthermore,her super scores only from 1986 to 1988,after that she did more usual scores.
One excellent throw does not an excellent javelin thrower maketh!
And, to reiterate to another bug bear of mine, that 50m throw would not be a 50m throw today. There have been two changes in javelin specifications since and scientific studies have shown that athletes are disadvantaged with today's model compared to the 'old' and 'old-old' model. Current heptathletes are losing many valuable points to previous greats.
JJK is the best heptathle of all-time, then I hope you see Koch as the best 400m runner of all-time, Felke as the greatest JTer of all time, maybe Hellmann or Gansky as the greatest DTer of all time, maybe Lisovskaya as the greatest SPer of all time, and Kazankina or Qu Yunxia as the greatest 1500m runner of all time, Wang Junxia as the greatest 10ker of all time, Donkova as the greatest hurdler of all time and maybe even Flo Jo as the greatest 100/200 runner of all time...
Me, I find it very hard to gauge who is 'athletic' because many, particularly from previous eras, owe their athleticism to something synthetic.
Gabriella wrote:The other point is that, due to the heptathlon scoring tables, athletes that are sprinter/jumpers have an advantage over throwers, so her gap over her rivals is skewed. Athletes like Turchinskaya, Shouaa and Dobrynska are very disadvantaged, as are all strong throwers.
People see 'athletic' as 'run and jump' (speed), but 'throw' (power) is in there too. The decathlon evens things out a bit better than the heptathlon, and throw in the DT & PV and we would see a change at the top of women's multis.
I'm not doubting JJKs fantastic record, but there are other brilliantly athletic women too. I don't think we'll ever know who is truly the most athletic or best heptathlete when things in the 80's were different to now. It's like comparing 80's throwers to Adams, Heidler et al.
Gabriella wrote:One excellent throw does not an excellent javelin thrower maketh!
Just looking at her top Heps, she threw over 50m more than once, so it was not a fluke.
nianchengyu wrote:JJK indeed has huge individual pbs but relatively she cannot combined them well in hep ,her total pbs worth more than 7600p but only 7291p WR with below-par HJ and JV,in her 7215p she did not do well in LJ/7.00m and 800m/2.20s.Furthermore,her super scores only from 1986 to 1988,after that she did more usual scores.
Regression to the mean tells us that if you have outlier performances, the probability of replicating them on a regular basis is diminished. For her to be at the top of her game across the board - when 'her game' is defined as world-class in 5 events, and 'excellent' in the other two - is well nigh impossible. Her sustained excellence in all the events makes her the GOAT of GOATs, in this one man's opinion.
For basketball, My picks are Jordan, Lebron and Wilt for sure. The other 2 will be interesting: Havlicek, Olajuwon, Dwight Howard, Iverson, Dr J..several more
3 that they should look at are Steve Nash, Danny Ainge and Nate Robinson..for multi-sport reasons
I hope they dont fall into the trap that most basketball fans/"experts" and just pick leapers like Vince and Blake Griffin and Dominique...sure they are good athletes too but not the elite...in my opinion
Why is JJK a lock? If she is, then why isnt a male decathlete a lock?
Why because she dominated the heptathlon, was a great long jumper and played pro basketball. Not to mention, this is an ESPN list and they are biased for North American athletes. Privalova and Drechsler both deserve to be included but I doubt either will.
Gabriella wrote: The other point is that, due to the heptathlon scoring tables, athletes that are sprinter/jumpers have an advantage over throwers, so her gap over her rivals is skewed. Athletes like Turchinskaya, Shouaa and Dobrynska are very disadvantaged, as are all strong throwers.
People see 'athletic' as 'run and jump' (speed), but 'throw' (power) is in there too. The decathlon evens things out a bit better than the heptathlon, and throw in the DT & PV and we would see a change at the top of women's multis.
I'm not doubting JJKs fantastic record, but there are other brilliantly athletic women too. I don't think we'll ever know who is truly the most athletic or best heptathlete when things in the 80's were different to now. It's like comparing 80's throwers to Adams, Heidler et al. Great post! Obviously I agree with you.
Gabriella wrote:And, to reiterate to another bug bear of mine, that 50m throw would not be a 50m throw today. There have been two changes in javelin specifications since and scientific studies have shown that athletes are disadvantaged with today's model compared to the 'old' and 'old-old' model. Current heptathletes are losing many valuable points to previous greats.
They didn't adjust the scoring tables to account for the javelin redesign?
cullman wrote:Re: dancers as athletes. Google "Nicholas Brothers In Stormy Weather" if you want to see a great athletic tap performance.
Thanks for alerting me to that incredible performance and the movie. I see it also has a number of other legends like Lena Horne, Bojangles (Bill Robinson), Fats Waller, and Cab Calloway. I have to buy or rent it!
Gabriella wrote:And, to reiterate to another bug bear of mine, that 50m throw would not be a 50m throw today. There have been two changes in javelin specifications since and scientific studies have shown that athletes are disadvantaged with today's model compared to the 'old' and 'old-old' model. Current heptathletes are losing many valuable points to previous greats.
They didn't adjust the scoring tables to account for the javelin redesign?
One might assume that they'd somehow adjust the scoring tables, but based on quick examination, Olympic heptathlon javelin distances in Seoul in 1988 seem to have generated the same point scores as identical distances in London, 2012, despite the women's javelin modification of 1999.
Interestingly though, in the 2012 London competition, 9 of the competitors had significantly longer throws than the best throw in Seoul despite using the newer type javelin, although I'm not sure if the temperature, humidity, and wind in London may have been more conducive to longer throws.
cullman wrote:Re: dancers as athletes. Google "Nicholas Brothers In Stormy Weather" if you want to see a great athletic tap performance.
Thanks for alerting me to that incredible performance and the movie. I see it also has a number of other legends like Lena Horne, Bojangles (Bill Robinson), Fats Waller, and Cab Calloway. I have to buy or rent it!
You're welcome. Bill Bojangles Robinson apparently held a record at one time for sprinting backwards.
In addition to holding world records from 400m to the mile, Thomas Dold is also quite good in running upstairs, including multiple wins at the Empire State Building tower run.
Gabriella wrote:But she didnt excel in the JT and 800m at all;
I beg to differ. Her 50m JT in 1986 was indeed 'excellent', as was her 2:08 800. The rest of her marks then were world-class. She was (is) in a completely different class than her 'peers'. And her peers were among the best athletes on the planet.
JJK indeed has huge individual pbs but relatively she cannot combined them well in hep ,her total pbs worth more than 7600p but only 7291p WR with below-par HJ and JV,in her 7215p she did not do well in LJ/7.00m and 800m/2.20s.Furthermore,her super scores only from 1986 to 1988,after that she did more usual scores.
Usually the athletes PRs etc come spread out over time with different event getting better and worse. However, with JJK the two Hepts she did when she set that so-far untouchable record would, when combined, give her over 7400 points if I recall my calculations correctly. Those two meets were not that far apart in time.
fortyacresandamule wrote:Do golfers qualify as athletes? For if they do, we might as well called ball room dancers athletes also.
The fact that women can't compete with men tells me that there is some athleticism involved in golf, though John Daley proved that you don't have to be in shape. Also, I can't think of another sport that places as a high a premium on hand-eye coordination as golf does.
I think a table tennis player and in cricket ( top class batsmen) require much more hand coordination than golfers.
fortyacresandamule wrote:Do golfers qualify as athletes? For if they do, we might as well called ball room dancers athletes also.
The fact that women can't compete with men tells me that there is some athleticism involved in golf, though John Daley proved that you don't have to be in shape. Also, I can't think of another sport that places as a high a premium on hand-eye coordination as golf does.
I think a table tennis player and in cricket ( top class batsmen) require much more hand coordination than golfers.
Those sports put a good deal of emphasis on strategy and quickness in addition to hand-eye coordination. Hitting major league baseball pitching requires a combination of hand-eye coordination, strategy (guessing the pitch), power and quickness. In golf, quickness is a non-factor, strategy is a very small factor (most golfers approach all the holes the same way) and power is a non-factor (most adult males have enough power). The only talent golf requires in abundance is hand-eye coordination.
In general its true that the simplest test of athletic ability is the ability to adapt and fit in no matter the sport or task. So it would probably surprise you to know just how goofy and uncoordinated some of the best players in a specific sport are when they're placed outside of it. Those guys who can run an amazing route, but shoot a basketball like a 12 year old girl. The hurdler who glides through the race but catches a baseball as if its made of radioactive sewage. I've played with, grew up with or simply seen a lot of former professional athletes and I would have to say, that you would surprised. Im surprised Randy Moss didnt get a mention?
Anyhow, i'll use myself as an example. At my best I had a 46" vertical, ran a NFL timed 4.17 in the 40, triple jumped 46' the 1st time trying it. Ran a 4:40something in the mile. Been able to flip rather easily since the 3rd grade, no Ryan Lochte but i've been able to competently swim since 5th grade. Never met a db who could cover me, and never met a reciever who I couldnt cover. Volleyball was pretty easy, but I never enjoyed it. Uncle had a tennis fetish for a while and I realized then that if I could afford the lessons I might be pretty decent at it. For some reason I didnt play soccer much if ever. I hate baseball to this day so whatever I could have done there is pointless to me lol. Point being there was never a time where I felt out of place or that I couldnt develop by simply being more involved in the sport/activity.
But guess what, one of my friends growing up was probably equal if not a better athlete than me. In high school he was 6'4", ran 13.8 in the 110's, if not for an awful coach would have jumped well over 7' in the hj(6'10 five times). Was a 23' long jumper(same bad coach), could have been the most effective reciever if not for the jump coach also being the wide recievers coach as well...He never let either of us play, so my friend quit. I believe he also played baseball as well as gymnastics....
So im interested to see how this test will be done with people who no longer play or exist...
