the Seoul women's 4x1


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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:29 am

Rog wrote:You can't deny though that Echols lost a lot of ground to the USSR and GDR - about 4m - to supposedly slower runners. It's hard to imagine Gwen Torrence losing any ground at all, after finishing 5th in the 100 final.

I think Echols ran her 10.83 behind Flo Jo's 10.49, btw - she was a decent 100 runner (she won the World Cup the following year), but she wasn't 10.83 calibre and whatever she was worth, she didn't show it in that race.

Based on where she recieved the baton, I think she may have lost 2m to the Russian, but it's hard to tell from the video how she compared to the East German since she's cut out of the video for the most part. Also keep in ming that Echols split would have been adversely affected by having to slam on brakes before she got to the 200m mark due to Flo-jo getting out so slow, while the Russian was able to run through the zone full speed since their third leg got out on time.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:26 am

Gabriella wrote:On Drechsler not being in the relay, she actually sustained a back injury during a lifting session in Seoul just before the Games started and nearly withdrew from the 100m. However, it does seem she was never to be in the team anyway. Horst-Dieter Hille, Gohr and Aueswald-Lange’s coach, didn’t want her in the team stating she didn’t practice enough. Prior to Seoul the GDR had experimented with Behrendt on leg 1 and Moller on leg 2 in a race in June; with Gunther replacing Behrendt on leg 2 a few times as well as the Seoul order. At their NCs Gunther DNF the 200m though, and in their last race before Seoul, where they ran the WL of 41.73, they ran their Seoul order. Drechsler had run on the 4x1 only once that year, at their NCs for her SC Motor Jena club, so was not practiced. There was a suggestion she would run in the 4x4 instead and with Neubauer not in great form it was becoming more likley, however Neubauer ran a great leg in the relay heats to secure her place. Drechsler's programme was already heavy with 4 rds of the 100, 4 rds of the 200 and LJ q and F though.


Ha

The Oracle has spoken :D
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:55 am

Great post Gabriella! While I do agree that Echols probably didn't bring 10.8 form to Seoul, I don't think she was 0.7s seconds slower than Torrence either.

But one thing to keep in mind when analyzing 4x100 splits is that if there's a bad exchnage that was caused by the outgoing runner getting out slow and/or leaving late, it is the incoming runner's split that will be adversely affected by it, since it inevitably causes the incoming runner to slow down before he/she reaches the 100m mark (scratch leg), 200m mark (second leg) or 300m mark (third leg), where the splits are timed. In the Seoul race, Ashford caused Flo-jo's split to be slower than it should have been, and Flo-jo affected Echols' split in the same manner. More recently, Sherone Simpson added at least 0.2s to Shelly-Ann Fraser's split when she forced Fraser to slam on the brakes in the London Olympic final. On the other hand, Allyson Felix's London split is probably a good guage of her flying 100 speed since Bianca Knight forced her to run through the zone to make the pass.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Smoke » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:13 pm

Are you guys serious?????? The record has not been broken because 1) the teams do not race enough. 2) It has been very rare that this type of quartet has been together since then. That is simply the facts. Practice has been proven to be a joke reason for success and excuse for failure. I would bet a quarter that teams that have national teams drop the stick more than Americans over the years.
Simply a fact of these women being fast (in form) and not dropping the stick.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:00 am

Smoke wrote:Are you guys serious?????? The record has not been broken because 1) the teams do not race enough. 2) It has been very rare that this type of quartet has been together since then. That is simply the facts. Practice has been proven to be a joke reason for success and excuse for failure. I would bet a quarter that teams that have national teams drop the stick more than Americans over the years.
Simply a fact of these women being fast (in form) and not dropping the stick.


Nobody was suggesting that US drop the baton more than anyone else !! just that NOBODY is as proficient as the GDR and a number of teams significantly faster on paper have failed the break the record over the years because of poor baton passing
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Pierre-Jean » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:33 am

gh wrote:
skiboo wrote:The 1988 US team probably lost at least 0.7 seconds simply by leaving Gwen Torrence off the second leg, which was run by Sheila Echols in a very slow 10.70.

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w4x100ok.htm..l...


the pedigree of many splits on that site is highly suspect, particularly since in many cases they don't even add up. Shame when bad data like that is presented as fact.


Different ways of analysing relay.
Split add up when the times are taken when the baton's holder reaches 100m, 200m and 300m points.
Split don't add up when the times are taken when each runner reaches 100m, 200m and 300m points.

The first method is used by former Czech biomech team (in charge of WC'87 and OG'88 IAAF reports)
The second method is used by former DDR biomech team (in charge of WC'93 and WC'09 IAAF reports)

Both biomech teams - highest pedigree - analysed the 37.79 race by French team (former WR in 1990)
Here are the results:
Morinière 10.70 Sangouma 8.77 Trouabal 9.17 Marie-Rose 9.15 (TCH analyse, total 37.79)
Morinière 10.62 Sangouma 8.92 Trouabal 9.28 Marie-Rose 9.21(GDR analyse, total 38.03)
And now to make things more confusing:
Morinière 10.62 Sangouma 8.92 Trouabal 9.28 Marie-Rose 9.21 (times given by the then-French relay coach Jo Maïsetti (not sure if those times are form Omega who used to take splits or if it's from various video measurements made in the staidum by Maïsetti or a mix of both - using the first methods as total is 37.79 - and generally accepted as it was given to the press in the following days after the race and even published in ATFS Annuals)

Hope it cmakes things clearer.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:56 am

mump boy wrote:
Smoke wrote:Are you guys serious?????? The record has not been broken because 1) the teams do not race enough. 2) It has been very rare that this type of quartet has been together since then. That is simply the facts. Practice has been proven to be a joke reason for success and excuse for failure. I would bet a quarter that teams that have national teams drop the stick more than Americans over the years.
Simply a fact of these women being fast (in form) and not dropping the stick.


Nobody was suggesting that US drop the baton more than anyone else !! just that NOBODY is as proficient as the GDR and a number of teams significantly faster on paper have failed the break the record over the years because of poor baton passing

Well said mump. All you have to do is look at how much ground the Americans lost to the Germans in the 1988 race on the second and third exchanges to see what you're talking about. The Americans kept the baton moving on the first exchnage but the Germans kept it moving on all three exchanges.
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Re: the Seoul women's 4x1

Postby Smoke » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:49 am

mump you said they have not practiced enough. My point is, the practice angle is over used and wrong. As you previously stated and are well aware of, the UKA team practice as a unit ALL year long for years. It is a science in the UK and yet, baton mishaps happen. It is not due to lack of practice, it is due to it being a part of the race. You will note that no other event that involves faults, i.e. the jumps, is inundated with endless experts screaming about practice when an athlete blows it on a foul. ONLY in the relays do we pretend drops are 100% avoidable.

On another note, the US women were WAY faster in London than all other teams. Look at the 100 and the 200 at the Games, not pr's. Most notably, Allyson was light years faster than Sherrone. I am just noting that, speed killed that wr, not more practice. Getting the baton around is the goal of the race, drops are an unfortunate aspect. yes they can be avoided but they cannot be eliminated. Its like hitting hurdles, should not happen but it happens
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Re: the Seoul women's 4x1

Postby mump boy » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:04 am

Smoke wrote:mump you said they have not practiced enough. My point is, the practice angle is over used and wrong. As you previously stated and are well aware of, the UKA team practice as a unit ALL year long for years. It is a science in the UK and yet, baton mishaps happen. It is not due to lack of practice, it is due to it being a part of the race. You will note that no other event that involves faults, i.e. the jumps, is inundated with endless experts screaming about practice when an athlete blows it on a foul. ONLY in the relays do we pretend drops are 100% avoidable.

On another note, the US women were WAY faster in London than all other teams. Look at the 100 and the 200 at the Games, not pr's. Most notably, Allyson was light years faster than Sherrone. I am just noting that, speed killed that wr, not more practice. Getting the baton around is the goal of the race, drops are an unfortunate aspect. yes they can be avoided but they cannot be eliminated. Its like hitting hurdles, should not happen but it happens


On the first point i assume you're joking :lol:

We've not once mentioned dropped batons, we're talking about baton speed and practice can and will dramatically maximise speed of changeover

Nobody is disputing this :?
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Re: the Seoul women's 4x1

Postby Flumpy » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:17 am

Smoke wrote:My point is, the practice angle is over used and wrong. As you previously stated and are well aware of, the UKA team practice as a unit ALL year long for years. It is a science in the UK and yet, baton mishaps happen. It is not due to lack of practice, it is due to it being a part of the race.


As the kids say 'I can't, even.............' :shock: :lol: :?
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