Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in 100m


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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:30 am

BusterZanga wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:I would rank [-] Borzov [-] ahead of Hines in the 100.

Jim Hines beat the lineup, minus Paul Nash. Valeriy Borzov beat the number three Yank, Robert Taylor, Lennox Miller gone bald, limping Hasely Crawford, and four nobodies. No need for an opinion there.


Yeah, but I don't think its a given that Hart or Robinson was going to beat Borzov. Neither of them was as good as Hines, in retrospect, or certainly not Hayes. Borzov wasn't bad and his time in 1972 for low-altitude, no wind was one of the best of his era. Would have been a good race, but Borzov may well still have won gold with the 2 Americans in there.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby user4 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:02 am

bambam wrote:
BusterZanga wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:I would rank [-] Borzov [-] ahead of Hines in the 100.

Jim Hines beat the lineup, minus Paul Nash. Valeriy Borzov beat the number three Yank, Robert Taylor, Lennox Miller gone bald, limping Hasely Crawford, and four nobodies. No need for an opinion there.


Yeah, but I don't think its a given that Hart or Robinson was going to beat Borzov. Neither of them was as good as Hines, in retrospect, or certainly not Hayes. Borzov wasn't bad and his time in 1972 for low-altitude, no wind was one of the best of his era. Would have been a good race, but Borzov may well still have won gold with the 2 Americans in there.


I think bambam has it about right, neither Hart nor Robinson were even 1/2 a yard better than Taylor on their best day.

A John Carlos at his very best beats Borzov, but he was well past his prime by '72. I would rate Hines and Borzov as roughly equal at 100m. If one has to rank them at 100m alone, probably safe to give it to Hines, if rating them as 100/200m men then Borzov is superior.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Dixon » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:38 pm

There is a picture in Track & Field News showing Robert Taylor and Borov starting off even on a 4x1 anchor (I saw the race on TV) would ya believe Taylor took him?

Borzov did get a little lucky in 72. If you watch the 200m, why is Larry Black in lane one? While I doubt Rey Robinson is beating Borzov I do think Hart had a legit shot at it.

Borzov ran a 10.14 winning his gold, Hayes 10.05 on a shabby dirt track.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby rhymans » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:46 am

Hines was good over 2 seasons (67-68), but even in those 2 seasons his record against Charlie Greene was 5-6 over 100y/100m [it was 10-5 for Greene if you add the 1966 season]. The difference between Hines and Hayes is that Hayes had a positive win-loss record against everyone he faced - indeed between 1961 and 1964 he lost just twice over 100y - once to Roger Sayers when he had flu [1962 NAIA] and once to Harry Jerome when the judges got it wrong (photos show Hayes as the winner in the 1962 California Relays). Hines was not remotely as consistent as Hayes, and only had superiority against Greene between July and October 1968.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby user4 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:58 am

Dixon wrote:There is a picture in Track & Field News showing Robert Taylor and Borov starting off even on a 4x1 anchor (I saw the race on TV) would ya believe Taylor took him?.


Photos showing someone is even in a 4X1 somewhere sometime are kind of irrelevant. Someone like Dixon should know that. Taylor was a great dashman, he faced Borzov on the big stage when the chips were down and he has a well earned silver but it wasnt really close like say Rome 1960.

Dixon wrote: Borzov did get a little lucky in 72. If you watch the 200m, why is Larry Black in lane one? While I doubt Rey Robinson is beating Borzov I do think Hart had a legit shot at it.


Great great point. If Larry Black had a middle lane this race would have been quite different and we very well could have seen the first two legit sea level sub 20s. That would have been more spectacular than the Mexico City 200m. Larry Black was the real deal. I would love to see a real historical review of the '72 lane draw process and the names and affiliations of the officials ... We were robbed.


Dixon wrote: Borzov ran a 10.14 winning his gold, Hayes 10.05 on a shabby dirt track.


Indeed and that is why Hayes is King. Hines and Borzov are really no match for a peak Hayes. I wonder if Hines at his best could have beaten Harry Jerome in 1964, my guess is that he beats Jerome by more than 1/2 a yard. Of course Jerome was not at his career best in 1964. Comparing peak Hines to the '72 final, I think Hines also beats Taylor and is in a fight with Borzov to the wire. Im not sure Hines takes it.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Per Andersen » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:00 pm

Dixon wrote:There is a picture in Track & Field News showing Robert Taylor and Borov starting off even on a 4x1 anchor (I saw the race on TV) would ya believe Taylor took him?

Borzov did get a little lucky in 72. If you watch the 200m, why is Larry Black in lane one? While I doubt Rey Robinson is beating Borzov I do think Hart had a legit shot at it.


Get real, man!. There were no such picture because Taylor did not run anchor, Eddie Hart did!!! and he had a 0.3 lead over Borzov at the exchange. Yes he held Borzov off and Borzov did not kill himself,was happy with the silver. Borzov lucky??? It never ends does it? At some point you have to come to grips with the fact that Borzov was the superior sprinter in 1971 and 1972. Undefeated by Americans in both years. He even took them in the Montreal 100 when he was past his prime.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby rhymans » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:25 pm

To be fair "Dixon" wasn't entirely wrong, as he wasn't talking about the 72OG race but the US-SU meet in 1970. T&F News described the two men as starting level, but "Taylor handling Borzov with ease" - The US won 39.1 to 39.2. In general terms Per is absolutely right - Borzov was the best in 71-72, beating the US men (and Lennox Miller) in Berkeley in 71 before winning in Munich. His margin over Taylor was 0.10, while Hart's margin over Taylor in the OT was 0.05, an indication of B being better than H in 72.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby user4 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:33 am

Per Andersen wrote:
Dixon wrote:There is a picture in Track & Field News showing Robert Taylor and Borov starting off even on a 4x1 anchor (I saw the race on TV) would ya believe Taylor took him? Borzov did get a little lucky in 72. If you watch the 200m, why is Larry Black in lane one? While I doubt Rey Robinson is beating Borzov I do think Hart had a legit shot at it.

Get real, man!. There were no such picture because Taylor did not run anchor, Eddie Hart did!!! and he had a 0.3 lead over Borzov at the exchange. Yes he held Borzov off and Borzov did not kill himself,was happy with the silver. Borzov lucky??? It never ends does it? At some point you have to come to grips with the fact that Borzov was the superior sprinter in 1971 and 1972. Undefeated by Americans in both years. He even took them in the Montreal 100 when he was past his prime.


Per nails it ! One of the things that astounds me about Borzov was his '76 Bronze. Physically he looked like a shell of his '72 version and yet with all three USA guys in the final he picks up a medal. There was no one beating him in Munich, just wasnt going to happen.

On to another guy, watch that Montreal 100m final and see Don Quarrie sustain a top end speed in the final 40m that made both Borzov and Crawford look sub par. Don Quarrie was the real deal, he picks up silver in the 100 and then gold in the 200m from a tight lane 2.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Per Andersen » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:24 pm

rhymans wrote:To be fair "Dixon" wasn't entirely wrong, as he wasn't talking about the 72OG race but the US-SU meet in 1970. T&F News described the two men as starting level, but "Taylor handling Borzov with ease" - The US won 39.1 to 39.2. In general terms Per is absolutely right - Borzov was the best in 71-72, beating the US men (and Lennox Miller) in Berkeley in 71 before winning in Munich. His margin over Taylor was 0.10, while Hart's margin over Taylor in the OT was 0.05, an indication of B being better than H in 72.

Absolutely, I failed to notice that Dixon was not referring to the Olympic 4 x 100 of 1972 but to "a 4 x 100", 2 years earlier.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby James Fields » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:36 am

grunner started this thread with,
Mexico city 1968 olympic 100m fi nal Jim Hines from the United States was the firts man to break 10 seconds in 100m. He stopped the colck at 9,95 seconds.


From a List of World Records recognized by IAAF there appears, prior to 1968 Olympics, the following on 20 June 1968 at Sacramento:
. . 9.9 Jim Hines, USA
. . 9.9 Charlie Greene, USA
. . 9.9 Ronnie Ray Smith, USA
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:37 pm

user4 wrote:
Dixon wrote:There is a picture in Track & Field News showing Robert Taylor and Borov starting off even on a 4x1 anchor (I saw the race on TV) would ya believe Taylor took him?.


Photos showing someone is even in a 4X1 somewhere sometime are kind of irrelevant. Someone like Dixon should know that. Taylor was a great dashman, he faced Borzov on the big stage when the chips were down and he has a well earned silver but it wasnt really close like say Rome 1960.

Dixon wrote: Borzov did get a little lucky in 72. If you watch the 200m, why is Larry Black in lane one? While I doubt Rey Robinson is beating Borzov I do think Hart had a legit shot at it.


Great great point. If Larry Black had a middle lane this race would have been quite different and we very well could have seen the first two legit sea level sub 20s. That would have been more spectacular than the Mexico City 200m. Larry Black was the real deal. I would love to see a real historical review of the '72 lane draw process and the names and affiliations of the officials ... We were robbed.


Dixon wrote: Borzov ran a 10.14 winning his gold, Hayes 10.05 on a shabby dirt track.


Indeed and that is why Hayes is King. Hines and Borzov are really no match for a peak Hayes. I wonder if Hines at his best could have beaten Harry Jerome in 1964, my guess is that he beats Jerome by more than 1/2 a yard. Of course Jerome was not at his career best in 1964. Comparing peak Hines to the '72 final, I think Hines also beats Taylor and is in a fight with Borzov to the wire. Im not sure Hines takes it.


You don't have to convince me that Hayes was the greatest.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:40 pm

Per Andersen wrote:
Dixon wrote:There is a picture in Track & Field News showing Robert Taylor and Borov starting off even on a 4x1 anchor (I saw the race on TV) would ya believe Taylor took him?

Borzov did get a little lucky in 72. If you watch the 200m, why is Larry Black in lane one? While I doubt Rey Robinson is beating Borzov I do think Hart had a legit shot at it.


Get real, man!. There were no such picture because Taylor did not run anchor, Eddie Hart did!!! and he had a 0.3 lead over Borzov at the exchange. Yes he held Borzov off and Borzov did not kill himself,was happy with the silver. Borzov lucky??? It never ends does it? At some point you have to come to grips with the fact that Borzov was the superior sprinter in 1971 and 1972. Undefeated by Americans in both years. He even took them in the Montreal 100 when he was past his prime.


Who said anything about the 1972 Olympics? You think I just make stuff up...that we all can check on...? Hell yes there was a picture of Taylor Borzov and Hart handing off and we see him also yelling at Taylor to go, and yes Taylor beat Borzov there.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:44 pm

rhymans wrote:To be fair "Dixon" wasn't entirely wrong, as he wasn't talking about the 72OG race but the US-SU meet in 1970. T&F News described the two men as starting level, but "Taylor handling Borzov with ease" - The US won 39.1 to 39.2. In general terms Per is absolutely right - Borzov was the best in 71-72, beating the US men (and Lennox Miller) in Berkeley in 71 before winning in Munich. His margin over Taylor was 0.10, while Hart's margin over Taylor in the OT was 0.05, an indication of B being better than H in 72.


Bingo~~~~~~~~

In Berkeley 71 Borzov beat Meriwether and Jim Green (also Quarrie).

We can never go with...somebody beating somebody so he should be able to beat..that doesn't work.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby bambam » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:12 pm

Dixon wrote:Who said anything about the 1972 Olympics? You think I just make stuff up...that we all can check on...? Hell yes there was a picture of Taylor Borzov and Hart handing off and we see him also yelling at Taylor to go, and yes Taylor beat Borzov there.


Easy, Dixo - Per apologized later in the thread noting that he was mixed up and thought you were referring to 1972
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Per Andersen wrote:
rhymans wrote:To be fair "Dixon" wasn't entirely wrong, as he wasn't talking about the 72OG race but the US-SU meet in 1970. T&F News described the two men as starting level, but "Taylor handling Borzov with ease" - The US won 39.1 to 39.2. In general terms Per is absolutely right - Borzov was the best in 71-72, beating the US men (and Lennox Miller) in Berkeley in 71 before winning in Munich. His margin over Taylor was 0.10, while Hart's margin over Taylor in the OT was 0.05, an indication of B being better than H in 72.

Absolutely, I failed to notice that Dixon was not referring to the Olympic 4 x 100 of 1972 but to "a 4 x 100", 2 years earlier.


Trust me I would never just make stuff up.
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Re: Jim Hines, The First Man Who broke 10 second barrier in

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:39 pm

bambam wrote:
Dixon wrote:Who said anything about the 1972 Olympics? You think I just make stuff up...that we all can check on...? Hell yes there was a picture of Taylor Borzov and Hart handing off and we see him also yelling at Taylor to go, and yes Taylor beat Borzov there.


Easy, Dixo - Per apologized later in the thread noting that he was mixed up and thought you were referring to 1972


I see that now, it's all good :mrgreen:
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