Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races


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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby deanouk » Thu May 31, 2012 3:19 am

gibson wrote: -
the only race i've seen steve blow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt7z5aQS ... re=related


Really!?
I think his worst tactical race ever was the 83 Worlds. He really should have won that one. His positioning and tactics, running several metres further on the last 600m than those ahead of him, was Coe like in its inefficiency. It was almost as bad as Coe's Moscow 800 and Stuttgart 1500 in giving himself literally no chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHiAWvVgK4
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Thu May 31, 2012 6:18 am

What do equivalence scores mean? Numbers don't hurt and sweat; people do. Coe certainly ran near his potential at 800m. At the mile, sure, he was probably a second or two shy -but 6 seconds? Come on.


Considering when Coe ran 3:47:33 he had a rabbit, a decent pace and looked like he was going all out at the end, so, yea, 6 seconds is a bit over the top.


You have to take these scoring tables equivalents with a huge grain of salt


here is where that crazy best case scenario speculation of 6 seconds improvement comes from.

1 - draft properly, behind a decent rabbit, not in lane 2 beside a lousy one.
2- run even splits and don't run wide, coe often runs on the outside of lane 1 even when alone
3 - expected improvement lost due to injury and illness in 82-83

check out coe's 332 in 1984 after a couple of bad years- after 800 and 1500 rounds while committing all the time wasting sins listed..
= running wide, refusing to draft, looking around, uneven pace = gold medal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOVVLrz2fq4

now imagine 1983 being a solid year and add that to the 1984 ability,
then take away the rounds, have a johnny grey taking coe to 600m in 114,
then what happens?
and a steve scott taking coe to the 1200m in 55 + 55 + 56
then what happens?

and hey, the iaaf tables are not all that bad.
check out moorcroft pb
349 mile - 732 3000m and 1300 5000.
now check the tables.
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Thu May 31, 2012 8:20 am

further to the "sub-optimal" 1984 la run.
what did coe do the week before to "prepare" for the 1500 in 3:32?
here are the "workouts"
3 August 1984 800m 1:45.71
4 August 1984 800m 1:46.75
5 August 1984 800m 1:45.51
6 August 1984 800m 1:43.64 :!:
7-8 August - rest.
9 August 1984 1500m 3:45.30
10 August 1984 1500m 3:35.81
11 August 1984 1500m 3:32.53 :!:

how many meters extra did he run?
several
how many times did he chop his stride?
couple of times
was the pace uneven?
there were two mid race surges followed by a very fast last lap
did coe have something left in the tank?
looks like it. watch coe give a murderous look and a few F***** yous to the press, then jog about, while the others are wasted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddrxCe3ZOOM
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Thu May 31, 2012 9:04 am

coe running wide yet again. and he still gets in trouble with elbows in the stretch.
all coe had to do was draft off favorite cruz as ovett would have done if he was up to snuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BABr2DA26Xw&feature=related
the margin of victory by cruz is roughly equivalent to the extra distance coe traveled.
cruz however deserves victory not only for having run the better race but for having run the greatest series of 800m races ever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_ ... _Olympics_–_Men%27s_800_metre
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby deanouk » Thu May 31, 2012 2:32 pm

gibson wrote: -
here is where that crazy best case scenario speculation of 6 seconds improvement comes from.
1 - draft properly, behind a decent rabbit, not in lane 2 beside a lousy one.
2- run even splits and don't run wide, coe often runs on the outside of lane 1 even when alone
3 - expected improvement lost due to injury and illness in 82-83

check out coe's 332 in 1984 after a couple of bad years- after 800 and 1500 rounds while committing all the time wasting sins listed..
= running wide, refusing to draft, looking around, uneven pace = gold medal!



You have a valid point. Coe often ran wide in lane 1 for no apparent reason, even when he was ahead or alone in that space. E.g. Rieti 86.
I remember he ran the first 5 bends wide of Byers during his 1st mile WR of 81 in Zurich. Thus he ran about 1.5m further every bend, which = 1.0 sec. Coe received no drafting for the first 1000m because he was not directly behind Byers. When he did hit the front, he ran the last 600m alone. At this level an athlete would generally expect to be taken to 1200m with drafting. The benefit of drafting is generally regarded as 1.0sec per 400m. So, on this day in Zurich, had he been directly behind a rabbit for 3 laps he should have been at least 2.5s faster. Add this to the 1.0s lost by running wide & we see that Coe could have run 3:45.0 that day!
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby deanouk » Thu May 31, 2012 2:33 pm

Together with the evidence from the Stockholm 1500 & the Brussels Mile, Coe was capable of 3:28 low & 3:44 high that summer. Had he made several attempts then possibly 3:27 high, 3:44 low. It is probable he would have continued to improve in the 2 seasons that followed (82/83) as 25/26 is usually the age when most mid-dist runners peak. Without the illnesses then it is plausible Coe would have approached the times EL G were to run 20 years later.

As for the LA 800 final, I've been saying for a while that Cruz & Coe were much more evenly matched than the result reveals. Coe ran on his outside for practically the entire race and covered an extra 7m. Cruz himself ran an extra 2.5m further. Their adjusted times based on that were Cruz 1:42.6, Coe 1:42.7, and that doesn't take the clash of elbows between Coe And Jones into consideration, which knocked Coe off his stride at a crucial point about 80m from home.
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:29 am

Rieti 1986 - Sebastian Coe - m.1500 - 3'29"77
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsHwft0p99g

another goofy record attempt.
it is not hard to see 327 off good rabbiting, provided coe would cooperate.
and this is probably not even coe at his best, let alone considering the best case scenario...of avoiding injury in the peak of his career.

by the way, lagat's pr in the mile is 347. no doubt in the right race, say like drafting off el-g he'd go 343.
lagat did get in the perfect draft in this one = 326 for the 1500m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9pIdiU4IAU

coe never got in the right race, just like lagat never got in the right mile race.
and a peak coe, while not better than el-g could "easily" win by drafting as lagat did.
= 325.

if el-g could draft off himself, he'd go 324.
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:20 am

deanouk wrote:gibson wrote: -
the only race i've seen steve blow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt7z5aQS ... re=related


Really!?
I think his worst tactical race ever was the 83 Worlds. He really should have won that one. His positioning and tactics, running several metres further on the last 600m than those ahead of him, was Coe like in its inefficiency. It was almost as bad as Coe's Moscow 800 and Stuttgart 1500 in giving himself literally no chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHiAWvVgK4


awesome race, and right, if you sit and kick cookie cutter races100 percent of the time, you should get boxed and burned in a quality field from time to time. the racers in this field were of a much superior caliber than earlier in his carear, notice after the 1000m free ride and some running in traffic, ovett makes up no ground in the last 120m.
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:06 am

gibson wrote:
deanouk wrote:gibson wrote: -
the only race i've seen steve blow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt7z5aQS ... re=related


Really!?
I think his worst tactical race ever was the 83 Worlds. He really should have won that one. His positioning and tactics, running several metres further on the last 600m than those ahead of him, was Coe like in its inefficiency. It was almost as bad as Coe's Moscow 800 and Stuttgart 1500 in giving himself literally no chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHiAWvVgK4


thanks for the schooling.

awesome race, if you run sit and kick cookie cutter races100 percent of the time, you should get boxed and burned in a quality field from time to time. the racers in this field were of a much superior caliber than earlier in his carear, notice after the 1000m free ride and runs what, 52 ? last quarter with some running in traffic, yet ovett makes up no ground in the last 120m.

over the course of researching this thread, i've become more impressed with both coe and ovett.
for example here is a windy 330. and run in from 500 out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_WektvHo4

for those who want snell in the race, see a high school ryan take out snell a year after his gold medal run... and snells time in this race was something like the his third best of his carear....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA
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Re: Coe v Ovett v Ryun: 10 races

Postby gibson » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:15 am

how to run a solo world record, ryan style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlwS0Fyq ... re=related
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